jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<nij> [crossed-post from #guix] Any guixers :)? Is there any idea how to use quicklisp on a guix system? NixOS seems to have a work-around.. but I haven't found any for guix - https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/master/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/quicklisp.sh
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<fiddlerwoaroof> morning, beach!
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<rain3> hi is the source for this available anywhere ? https://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/
<rain3> ok I think I found it git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/git/
<lukego> nij: I'm not a Guix'er but I use ql2nix and that works well for me jfyi
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<varjag> is there special wisdom in intercepting socket-errors in postmodern's with-connection instead of letting the application handle it?
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<dim> hi! how can I find out which of my ASDF dependencies or their dependencies require a given system, here CFFI (or actually abcl-cffi)?
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<dim> (let ((pgloader-deps (mapcar #'ql-dist:system-file-name
<dim> (flatten
<dim> (depends-on-cffi (ql:who-depends-on 'cffi)))
<dim> (ql-dist:dependency-tree "pgloader"))))
<dim> (intersection pgloader-deps depends-on-cffi :test #'string-equal))
<dim> sorry for multi-line posting
<dim> I guess I was too happy to be able to do it ;-)
<flip214> dim: you already use ql-dist:dependency-tree
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<dim> yeah, it still is a game of whack-a-mole and I'm not there yet
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<dim> okay, and now it fails for yet another reason
<dim> no CL during vacations for me it seems :/
<dim> for the very curious: Error while trying to load definition for system jna from pathname jar:file:///usr/local/Cellar/abcl/1.8.0/libexec/abcl-contrib.jar!/mvn/jna.asd:
<dim> that's during Retry loading FASL for #<ASDF/LISP-ACTION:CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-containers/with-utilities" "dev" "utilities-integration">.
<dim> (and the previous offender that required CFFI was cl+ssl, which is needed for pgloader by direct dependencies qmynd, drakma, sqlite, mssql, and quri)
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<nij> fiddlerwoaroof: I watched the talk you mentioned yesterday. Thanks :)
<nij> And I understand why guix/nix doesn't "really" solve the problem.
<nij> I wonder if in guix we can make a software depends on multiple versions of a dependency, and call each function with name and the version they belong to.
<Xach> dim: sometimes cffi is in defsystem-depends-on which complicates things a little
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<dim> Xach: I managed to get a list of systems to avoid in :depends-on (using #-abcl) so that I could load pgloader in there, so that's good
<dim> not good enough to load pgloader, though, so, no there yet, and running out of patience and time... gonna play with the kids instead
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<nij> Hi :) Can I fetch my github cl system from ql:quickload? Or I have to `git clone` it manually to my ~/quicklisp?
<Xach> nij: you must run git clone manually.
<Xach> or, you could do it automatically, if you write the code to automate it!
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<phoe> nij: I think roswell automates that
<phoe> or you could use e.g. (ql:quickload :legit) to write a function that does that for you
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<jmercouris> nij: or you could add your system to ultra lisp and then add the ultra lisp dist to your QL
<jmercouris> Or you could use clpm
<jmercouris> Or you could use qlot
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<jcowan> beach: I worked out an answer to `read` allocating multiple empty strings. Stash the reader macro for " and replace it with one that peeks to see if the next character is also quote. If so, read the quote and return a unique empty string; if not, call the stashed macro. The only thing this breaks is if you try to use eq(l) on an empty string.
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<beach> That's an interesting solution.
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<nij> clpm could accidentally eat my files xD
<nij> lemme take a look at roswell
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<dbotton> does anyone know of a "dictionary" or "thesaurus" for CL terms?
<Bike> other than the clhs glossary? not that i can think of
<dbotton> so let's say I wanted to say "member function" it would give the equivalent clos term
<dbotton> ok
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<Bike> oh, like for other kinds of jargon. yeah, i don't know anything like that. also i'm not sure there's any real equivalent to member functions?
<dbotton> well it could give the aprox version or explain why not
<Bike> i suppose so.
<luis> dbotton: is this close to what you're after? https://norvig.com/python-lisp.html
<dbotton> not really
<dbotton> It is easy to look up method or generic function and then learn what that means in CL
<dbotton> neither of which is the same as in most other languages with the same terms
<dbotton> but if someone was coming from another language could explain the approximate mapping or why things are different
<dbotton> I think would be helpful, maybe will try and work on. Would certainly help me be come more specific with my lisp terminology
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<Bike> let's see, i suppose the main things that trip people up are CLOS, the call by value semantics, and the condition system
<dbotton> those are main offenders yes, but when you drill down there are more more
<dbotton> "slots"
<Bike> ah, i suppose that is different.
<Bike> probably packages also.
<dbotton> also some comparisons between templates, macros, generics (ada), etc
<dbotton> the list is fairly long
<phoe> dbotton: you can emulate member functions with packages, in a way
<phoe> (defclass foo:myclass ...) (defmethod foo:method1 ((myclass myclass) ...) ...) ...
<dbotton> CL is itself the raw material of computer "language" and that lends itself to a different lingo in many ways
<phoe> while exporting foo:myclass and foo:method1
<phoe> but, yeah, that is not going to work very well for people who come from C++/Java/whatever single inheritance language there is
<dbotton> of course can, that is what I mean by raw material
<phoe> there's CLOS basics that need to be understood before becoming somewhat able with it, and the two CLOS chapters of PCL work decent with that
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<nij> What could be wrong? I quickload a cl system (on guix), and this error shows up
<phoe> nij: ffi-types-unix.c:14:10: fatal error: lfp.h: No such file or directory
<luis> lfp.h: No such file or directory seems pretty clear!
<Bike> nij: you're missing libfixposix, i think?
<phoe> iolib has a FFI dependen-- yes
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<nij> O..k.. I need to find a way to get that header file on guix then..
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<nij> just curious.. how do you know that it's supposed in libfixposix?
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<phoe> "IOlib requires a C library named LibFixPOSIX - https://github.com/sionescu/libfixposix - and its headers in order to compile."
<Bike> because i already knew iolib depended on libfixposix, and "lfp" is then an obvious initialism
<nij> cool. lemme try
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<Bike> maybe it owuld be possible for iolib to be a little clearer about it, though
<nij> Yes, it works, and gives me another error -
<nij> Unable to load foreign library (LIBFIXPOSIX). Error opening shared object "libfixposix.so": libfixposix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory.
<nij> I guess I'd have to teach sbcl (or cffi?) where to find the dynamical lib.
<Bike> sbcl literally just calls dlopen
<Bike> oh, if you just installed it you might need to call ldconfig or something
<nij> I'm afraid it's more complicated on guix..
<Bike> so i've heard. but what i mean is that it's the normal posix tools that are failing to work, rather than anything in lisp.
<nij> Since the dynamic libraries aren't installed in the usual global path.
<Bike> you could put a bypass in lisp, ofc
<nij> bypass?
<nij> Yeah.. it's time for me to face this thread and follow it - and hopefully it will fix the problem - https://www.mail-archive.com/bug-guix@gnu.org/msg16190.html
<nij> I just want to make sure that it's CFFI's problem before it - cuz in the error message there's no cffi.
<Bike> yeah, cffi just calls sbcl, which just calls dlopen
<nij> OH actually there is.. in the backtrace. OK, then I will
<Bike> so the error message is probably originating from sbcl somewhere
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<jasom> does SBCL have operations for efficiently calculating leading zeros or leading ones of a machine word?
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<flip214> clhs INTEGER-LENGTH
<flip214> might help
<jasom> aha, that will do
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<flip214> sb-vm:n-fixnum-bits says 63 for me... shouldn't it be 62 significant bits?
<jasom> will have to subtract
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<jasom> flip214: I think there's a single bit for tagging, so nope?
<flip214> jasom: I'd have thought 2 bits
<flip214> clhs LOGCOUNT
<flip214> sb-vm:n-machine-word-bits says 64
<flip214> but yeah, sb-vm:n-fixnum-tag-bits is 1
<jasom> (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) => 62, so given that there are negative fixnums, looks like 63
<flip214> just wanted to paste that as well
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<phoe> (integer-length most-negative-fixnum) ;=> 62 too
<phoe> so looks like 1 bit tag, 1 bit sign, 62 bits left for digits
<phoe> wait, no
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<phoe> 1 bit tag, 62 bits encode the number in two's complement...
* phoe thinks
<Xach> it's an ancient trick to squeeze an extra bit
<jasom> 1 bit tag, 63 bits encode the number in twos complement; (integer-length #xff) => 8, but clearly if you can go up to 255 with signed values it's 9 bits twos complement
<flip214> phoe: no, you were right first time... 1 tag, 1 sign, 62 significant for both positive and negative
<phoe> yes
<flip214> the ol' compression trick - just remember where the 1 bits are, the 0 bits take care of themselves. applied recursively you end up with "1", which encompasses every possible meaning at once!
<flip214> (and not 42, as some heretics might make you believe)
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<splittist> "Ran 14; Passed 14; Failed 0". Yay for me.
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<Shinmera> Heh, *exaggerated smug face* check this out: UAX-9 Total: 1'815'582 Passed: 1'815'582 (100%) Failed: 0 ( 0%)
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<phoe> oh come on, check this out:
<_death> for proper TDD brag you need to show that each failed first, and that the previous ones succeeded
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<Shinmera> phoe: I'm trying, but it appears there is nothing to check out.
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<phoe> Shinmera: hold on, it's still counting how many tests there are to run
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<phoe> oh right, there are Heap exhausted, game over. tests to run
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<phoe> oops
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<Shinmera> Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, there are 2 million tests for UAX9, but they're all auto-generated from unicod conformance data. :)
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<Shinmera> And those in turn I'm sure are generated as well.
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<aeth> put this in a macro and win the test war... (defun generate-tests (number-of-tests) (list* '5am:test 'lots-of-tests "Win the war of having the most tests" (loop :for i :from 0 :below number-of-tests :collect `(5am:is (= ,i ,i)))))
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<aeth> (generate-tests 2000000) ; oops, ran out of memory in SBCL... looks like it needs to be optimized more
<aeth> I guess I could also just increase the heap size!
<phoe> that's kinda what I tried
<phoe> oh! I didn't try heap size expansion
* phoe quickly makes a 500G swap file
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<Shinmera> the difference is that the uax tests are actually meaningful.
<phoe> yes
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<_death> aeth: that looks like a single (failing :) test to me
<aeth> To be fair, there is a small chance that this will catch an implementation bug.
<mfiano> Hey Lispers, gamedevs, and the uninitiated -- it's almost time: https://itch.io/jam/spring-lisp-game-jam-2021
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<Shinmera> Hmm. If my current jam project wasn't aimed to be commercial I'd actually join for once.
<Shinmera> Oh well!
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<Josh_2> idk how to make a game so im out
<Shinmera> you write the code
<Shinmera> and then the thing moves
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<contrapunctus> I've been looking into making a game for the last three days, but I'm new to both game dev and Common Lisp :\ (and not a very experienced programmer either)
<Shinmera> sometimes the thing only moves in your mind, but it's still a game!
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<mfiano> The point of the jam is not to make a game, oddly enough.
<Shinmera> I made games in Fortran when I was 5, it's not hard to make /a/ game. It's hard to make a game with high production values and comparable to commercial games you might be envisioning.
<mfiano> The idea is to practice. Even if you don't finish something, it is still desirable to submit it, as it gives you something to look back on to get a sense of your progression, and it also gives other people a base on which to work on, or ideas for their own future submissions.
<Shinmera> Either way the point is you can make a game, just lower your expectations.
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<Xach> I think like many endeavors it can be daunting to understand how to break down into completable individual pieces that, if you complete enough, results in a complete product/project
<mfiano> So, you could just take an existing game, from past jams or GitHub etc, modify it, study it to learn how it works, and perhaps get a better idea of gamedev in general and some ideas you'd like to execute in the future.
<Xach> (Which is part of the magic - when you see something and can instantly figure out how it's done, it is hard to be very delighted...)
<mfiano> It's quite intimidating to try to make a game as a beginner in a public jam with a time limit. That is not the point at all though...the point is to learn and have fun :)
<mfiano> Would like to see Xach try sometime :)
<Xach> The desire to make games led to my interest in computers, but I don't enjoy games nearly as much as I used to :~(
<mfiano> _death said he might too. I'd like to see longtime lispers that never participated try.
<Xach> I'd like to try someday anyway though!
<mfiano> Xach: Same here, I don't like playing games, but it is incredibly interesting to code them.
<Shinmera> I can offer more assistance with Trial than usual this and next week if someone wants to give it a shot using it.
<_death> mfiano: I did participate in a lisp game jam once :)
<_death> mfiano: though I didn't see it on the lispgames wiki
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<mfiano> _death: Oh I don't recall, just recall that you said you might this time :)
<_death> mfiano: (ql:quickload "consix") (consix:game)
<aeth> The games I liked the most (especially as a teenager) tended to be massive time sinks, so I just stay away from them entirely. And I don't try games that have patterns like that, especially if you have to log in daily/weekly (quite a few AAA games now), if you have things you need to constantly defend from raids (most survival games), etc.
<aeth> I only play games that you can just jump in and jump out
<aeth> So for me personally, it's not that I don't like games anymore, it's that I try not to like games too much anymore.
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<_death> mfiano: also try (ql:quickload "towers") (towers:game)
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<mfiano> _death: I see. 2010 was before my time as a host, when I was just a few years into Lisp at that point, and not sure I was doing games.
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<_death> mfiano: but, right now I'm compiling aseprite.. so it's one step closer to participation
<Xach> I like visual toys and interactivity, so maybe that would be my way in...
<mfiano> Xach: go for it!
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<mfiano> I'd just like to see more COmmon Lispers participate. Too many Lua/Fennel Lisp games :)
<Xach> boo
<Xach> 500 meg binary or bust
<mfiano> I've thought about making the first of the bi-annual jams CL only, but then I don't think we'd get anyone but borodust :)
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<Nilby> I already have 7 unfinished lisp games, and the 3 that I finished were very un-fun, so I'm not sure working on games as an anti-burnout tactic has worked.
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<Nilby> Presumably results would be better with intrinsic motivation, rather than boredom with other things.
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<_death> mfiano: I also have some tic-80 w/ ecl thing.. it was some years ago, but maybe someone wants to pick it up
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<mfiano> Maybe, I have never messed with tic-80 myself
<mfiano> Nor ecl for that matter
<Xach> tic-80 is nice. very very short feedback loop.
<_death> well https://github.com/death/TIC-80 is the repo
<Bike> quick question - i was looking at tic-80 before - it's not an actual virtual machine is it? like it doesn't have a bytecode ISA or something, you can write code in whatever
<_death> I even added paren highlighting ;)
<mfiano> Do you have to cherry pick through 1527 commits? :)
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<_death> Bike: from what I remember it just embedded a js/lua engine
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<Bike> ok yeah, that's what it looked like. i think i had it in my head that it was an actual VM
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<luis> Has anyone built a Docker container with ALL THE LISPS?
<_death> mfiano: I've not kept up with tic-80.. it was just when it was made public (hence only 60 commits in that repo).. it seemed pretty functional back then though
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<luis> phoe: 5 Lisps is not all the Lisps but it's a rather nice start!
<mfiano> All the lisps is a lot of lisps
<mfiano> Forget TIC-80, need the TI-80 too :)
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<luis> Hmm, although the site only lists CMUCL, ECL, SBCL, ABCL and CCL, https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/gitlab-ci.yml suggests there's a CLISP image too.
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<nij> Weird.. in my stumpwm config, I have (when (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :some-package)) (progn (defcommand ..)))
<nij> So when :some-package fails to load, the progn block doesn't get evaluated.
<Bike> but you get a read error anyway?
<nij> However, defcommand does get evaluated! And the other sub-blocks do not!
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<nij> Could it be that defcommand is a macro that leaks? Is it even possible?
<Bike> oh. dang, my crystal ball is off today
<Bike> leaks as in modifies the surrounding context in this way? no, t hat's not possible.
<Bike> what do you mean by "the other sub-blocks"
<Bike> the other forms in the progn?
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<jasom> my brain is not working today. How does one print a zero-padded integer with format?
<Bike> "3,'0d" i think?
<jasom> Bike: that gives e.g. 0-3 for negative 3
<Bike> huh, so it does.
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<_death> you could do something yucky like (format t "~A~3,'0D" (if (minusp x) "-" "") (abs x))
<Bike> yeah, it doesn't seem like there's a ~d incantation here
<jasom> _death: that gives the behavior like C's "%.3d" but still not like C's "%03d" (the former prints 3 digits, the later 3 characters)
<Bike> throw in v and subtract 1 from the digit count if it's negative
<Bike> really sucks at that point though
<jasom> this might be a job for ~/
<splittist> (printfcl:printf "%03d" thing)
<splittist> (:
<Xach> lol
<Krystof> do you have a compiler macro to turn constant-printf-string printfs into constant-format-string format controls?
<splittist> Krystof: no. The forthcoming scanfcl does compile its control string, though.
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<Krystof> (format t "~:[~3,'0D~;-~2,'0D~]" (minusp x) (abs x)) ; for what it's worth
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* luis chuckles
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<lotuseater> i learned today for what SYMBOL-MACROLET not to use :) had often something like (aref e k) in a function with even SETF and thought, oh hm, so use (symbol-macrolet ((e_k '(aref e k))) ...)
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<lotuseater> but labeling readmacros did it then ^^
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<_death> it's fine to use that.. except that extraneous quote
<lotuseater> ah i thought it has to be a symbolic expression
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<lotuseater> oh cool thanks. sometimes those are really useful
<lotuseater> but hm, the other thing was, translating an algorithm with three closures and that use same parameter names as declared for lexical scope in the main algorithm ^^ how does FLET handle that?
<lotuseater> being more concrete, it was this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobi_eigenvalue_algorithm#Algorithm
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<_death> not sure what you're asking.. this pseudocode looks like it could use some factoring.. I'd start by pulling those functions out
<_death> that makes it easier to test things in the repl
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<Shinmera> Or just use one of a bunch of matrix libraries that can already compute eigenvalues
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<lotuseater> yes it does need refactoring :D
<lotuseater> Shinmera: that's not the point :)
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<ioa> Hi everyone, if you're interested in talking about the ELS, SAL9000 made a room for it: #elsconf
<ioa> Especially the presence of marco heisig (no bouncer? I forgot his nick), easye and phoe would be very much appreciated, as they have all the info. :)
<phoe> gasp! #els2021 now has competition
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<ioa> phoe, oh, I didn't know about #els2021, there was a discussion about this years els in the old room els2020, and SAL9000 made elsconf so we don't create a room every year.
<ioa> *year's
<phoe> sure, sounds good! let's discuss the channel setup when everyone (including me) is awake tomorrow
<ioa> sounds good, good night!
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