Topic for #milkymist is now Radical Tech Coalition :: Milkymist One, Migen, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs
cladamw [cladamw!~adamwang@host-222.80-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw] has joined #milkymist
cladamwa [cladamwa!~Adam@host-222.80-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw] has joined #milkymist
xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #milkymist
sh4rm4 [sh4rm4!~sh4rm@gateway/tor-sasl/sh4rm4] has joined #milkymist
rejon [rejon!~rejon@li382-141.members.linode.com] has joined #milkymist
xiangfu [xiangfu!~xiangfu@fidelio.qi-hardware.com] has joined #milkymist
<kristianpaul> recongiguration indeed MAIN feature for geek loving :)
<kristianpaul> ah the cpu combo. well, i tought about it because the usb part...
<kristianpaul> but i still prefer give a try to a usb host core from opencores than using an asic to this state of comitment ;-)
cladamwa [cladamwa!~Adam@host-222.80-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw] has joined #milkymist
cladamw [cladamw!~Adam@host-222.80-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw] has joined #milkymist
<wolfspraul> cladamw: hi there, good morning
<wolfspraul> we were wondering yesterday whether you already selected a DVI-I connector
<cladamw> hi good morning
<wolfspraul> then we quickly did a digikey search for molex parts and found this http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/74320-1004/WM5600-ND/356066
<wolfspraul> 74320 series
<cladamw> no yet, but just refer. to Molex one: 74320-1004
<cladamw> yes
<wolfspraul> quite expensive, 3-3.50 USD even for 50pc, but I guess we can find others with very similar specs that are cheaper
<wolfspraul> or we just take the molex part for now, 3.50 USD is not totally bad
<wpwrak> ah, everybody has the same question at the same time :)
<cladamw> yes, quite expensive but still have FCI likely
<cladamw> i can check if our previous vendor of VGA connector for that.
<wolfspraul> wow the bom says we pay 20 cents for our current VGA connector :-)
<cladamw> that VGA is traditional though.
<cladamw> taiwan or china should can source more chipper one.
<wolfspraul> ok, we can start with the molex one and then you check a few other vendors maybe, but I'd say not too many
<wolfspraul> maybe we can find another big and quality one that is substantially cheaper?
<wolfspraul> if it's a small shop or hard to reach etc. then rather not, I think
<cladamw> but you know the request time from taiwan here is not good and fast, so use Molex from digikey for drawing firstly. ;-)
<wolfspraul> only causes problems later on
<wolfspraul> yes, and most likely others will follow or be very close to molex dimensions, true?
<wolfspraul> I would only compare to others we can easily source at digikey/mouser/farnell
<wolfspraul> let's say that's a requirement?
<cladamw> close to surely the pins dimension but not all equalent to the same plasic size i think.
<wolfspraul> yes
<cladamw> to replace DVI-I is not the time now though. but surely we need to find another before R4 run.
<cladamw> and also all include J21 and Jxx etc.
<wolfspraul> it would help Werner with the expansion system dimensions
<wolfspraul> but we have a starting point with the molex one
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: should we make sourcability of such a part on digikey/farnell/mouser a design criteria?
<wpwrak> `yeah, if the molex connector is roughly what adam will use, that's all the information i need
<wpwrak> at least of a drop in replacement
<cladamw> need to reading werner's reply... reading...
<wpwrak> if you can find some lower-cost substitute, great. but you'll want to have at least a well-known part to fall back to.
<wolfspraul> still the same question, let's be more specific
<wolfspraul> "lower-cost substitutes" may well be on dk/mouser/farnell as well
<wpwrak> oh, sure. but it doesn't matter.
<wolfspraul> the question is whether for that type of part, we make sourcability on a big online distributor a *requirement* for us, or not
<wpwrak> sourcability of the same or an equivalent part
<wolfspraul> if not, we may source from a Taiwanese company without significant online presence, sales staff without good English, etc.
<wolfspraul> you won't get a 100% drop-in match probably
<wpwrak> well, same specs :)
<wpwrak> you'll notice if the tolerances are way off :) and if there's not much of a price difference, you may want to save yourself the hassle with the small shop
<wpwrak> but each part should have a properly documented equivalent at one or more major distributors
<wolfspraul> so it is a requirement
<wpwrak> yes, this is
<wpwrak> otherwise, you have weird bits in the system you cannot second source
<wpwrak> ... and they also have a high disappearance risk
<wpwrak> while it would be less likely that, say, xilinx would just disappear over night
<wpwrak> e.g., was fun to go over the gta02 BOM ~2 years after the design. (in gta02-core) for about half of the .tw components, we couldn't even find the company anymore
<cladamw> wpwrak, exactly you're right !
<cladamw> .tw manufactures are going to or already either close or cut down on stuff member.
<cladamw> bigger chips/components manufactures become more bigger.
<wpwrak> heh :)
<wpwrak> they feed on the small :)
radii [radii!foobar@pdpc/supporter/active/radii] has joined #milkymist
<cladamw> (Y1) surely we can source flatter one.
<cladamw> like (X1, 12 MHz) in jtag-serial board, just need to find 24.576MHz.
<wpwrak> kewl. something in the 3.0-3.5 mm range would be great. that would leave a nice round 5 mm for the extension board. an easy number to remember :)
<wpwrak> ah, that's a tiny one :)
<cladamw> which means in the other hand ..... cost rising. ;-)
<wpwrak> yeah, the really small ones can be expensive
<wpwrak> but it doesn't have to be *that* tiny. just a little thinner :)
<cladamw> yeah
<wpwrak> same tolerance, better drift, same capacitance, other parameters (ESR, temp.) similar
<wpwrak> one of them can't beat the 10 cents of Y1, though
<cladamw> I'm writing for review helps.
Martoni [Martoni!~chatzilla@ip-167-165.evhr.net] has joined #milkymist
<wpwrak> heh, schematics diffs would be handy now :)
<wpwrak> J22 looks good
<wpwrak> hmm, so all 3.3 V pins are occupied now ?
<cladamw> bank0~2 are run out!
<cladamw> yes
<wpwrak> hmm ...
<cladamw> excepts bank3, but it's ddram part...so you can see firstly
<cladamw> also the LEDs I also added to be as LED_USB[A:F] totally 6pcs.
<cladamw> also be noted that some driven by 2.5V, others by 3.3V.
<wolfspraul> i think we have to keep that LED idea under control
<wolfspraul> we have how many now? 18?
<wolfspraul> is that too much?
<wolfspraul> do we need one wire per led?
<wolfspraul> since we are trying to have a good design overall etc. - maybe that's not a good way to control 18 leds with 18 wires?
<wolfspraul> I don't want to ruin a good design with a wasteful bunch of lights ;-)
<cladamw> 20 LEDs now, it's easy to delete them later.
<wolfspraul> 20, wow. and they need 20 fpga wires?
<cladamw> see page 6 of Misc.SchDoc
<cladamw> especially I put 6 ports USB leds in bank3, if no needs few of them , it's all good to remove later. ;-)
<wpwrak> you need one wire per LED only if you need 100% duty cycle
Artyom [Artyom!~chatzilla@h6.net58.bmstu.ru] has joined #milkymist
<wolfspraul> I feel the led proposal we have right now is out of hand
<wolfspraul> it feels wasteful
<wolfspraul> but I'm not 100% sure what the latest proposal is :-)
<wpwrak> yeah, it does look a bit excessive
<wolfspraul> 20 leds, really?
<wolfspraul> with 20 wires?
<wpwrak> i don't like the idea of filling up the FPGA like this
<wolfspraul> where in other places we are thinking carefully how to reuse and overlay wires?
<wolfspraul> yes
<Fallenou> what are those leds for ?
<cladamw> hey...hehe...i just followed r3 known issues, we can downsize them now though...
<wolfspraul> Fallenou: we want to say m1 is as cool as arduino, you can have a lot of blinking lights on it! :-)
<Fallenou> one of r3 issue is "not enough led for user to be happy with blinking stuff" ?
<wolfspraul> ok seriously, from my side I do like more lights, but I also think it still has to be a good idea and good execution
<Fallenou> wolfspraul: I/O helps to sell that's right (buttons / switches / leds) because it helps prototyping or just have fun
<Fallenou> but 20 seems a lot
<wolfspraul> at some point werner proposed a light at each port to indicate what a patch wants
<Fallenou> 16 would allow for the user to output 2 bytes
<wolfspraul> even though practically that will get very hard with things like usb where you don't really know what is being attached, that was a strong idea I thought
<wolfspraul> Fallenou: yes yes, we know
<cladamw> 2*dmx, 2*midi, 3*video-in, power, 6*usb, ir, dvi-i, ethernet, memcard, rendering, on/off
<cladamw> let's determine what we need them now. ;-)
<wpwrak> we could do some multiplexing. e.g., a simple NxM matrix would need N single-load sources and M N-load drains, have a duty cycle of 1/M, and use N+M pins
<Fallenou> oh ok led to show what external device the current patch is using ? nice idea :)
<cladamw> no rendering? no On/Off? 6 USB -> 3 ?
<cladamw> 3*video-in -> 1?
<wpwrak> Fallenou: the idea is to have the following states: 0) unused (off), 1) ready for use (e.g., permanently on), 2) error (fast regular blink), 3) in use (activity blink)
<Fallenou> will you put plastic kind of optical fibers to conduct light from led all the way to the side of the case ?
<wolfspraul> not random reductions, let's think about what those lights mean
<Fallenou> wpwrak: ok sounds nice :)
<wpwrak> Fallenou: no fibers. just LEDs on the PCB.
<wolfspraul> why does 'rendering' have a light btw?
<wolfspraul> right now we have 3
<wolfspraul> if it doesn't render, you will see right away on the vga
<Fallenou> wpwrak: will it be easy to locate/read for the lambda user ? "this lead means this" ?
<Fallenou> s/lead/led/
<wpwrak> that's the idea. otherwise, it wouldn't make all that much sense :)
<Fallenou> how would you make it easy ? locate the led near the device/connector ? print the meaning on the PCB ? (printing maybe not easy to read during a party)
<wolfspraul> locate near connector
<Fallenou> ok
<wolfspraul> do we need 3 leds on rc3 ?
<wolfspraul> power-on seems good, but how about the other two?
<wolfspraul> just trying to understand what people feel about them. I only need the other two to workaround our boot-hang bugs in earlier hardware revisions
<wpwrak> dunno. we've kinda gotten used to them
<wpwrak> one is just power. that could go to the DC connector
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> although it cannot perform the "I want power" function unless we have a battery to light it :-)
<wolfspraul> how do people implement this 'breathing'/dimming feature of leds that Apple popularized to indicate a sleeping notebook?
<wpwrak> duty cycle variations
<wolfspraul> can we do that with the 3 leds we have today, the way they are wired up?
<wolfspraul> I mean on rc3
<wpwrak> with two of them
<wpwrak> the 3rd one is fixed to power, without sw control
<wolfspraul> ah k
<wolfspraul> so yeah, those other two I personally don't need
<wolfspraul> and the power one could be near the DC jack
<wolfspraul> it will be difficult to get complete consensus on the leds among a majority of people here
<wolfspraul> some may not care, and then everybody else will have small or large differences in what they propose
<wolfspraul> tough
<wolfspraul> how do we make everybody happy? :-)
<wolfspraul> we agree that > 10 fpga pins for this is wasteful?
<wolfspraul> if we even have that many fpga pins, I think Adam is basically just drawing up a wishlist now
<wolfspraul> I think we agree that we don't want any additional control ics
<wpwrak> hmm. need to find out how low a duty cycle would still be clearly visible
<wolfspraul> do we agree that all leds should have the same color, green?
<wpwrak> we could add a little AVR ;-))
<wolfspraul> yeah exactly
<wpwrak> dunno about the color yet
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: ok, can you think about the led idea from a holistic point a bit more?
<wolfspraul> if you did, you would take the lead and make other people's lifes much easier
<wolfspraul> it's very hard to find compromises on this kind of proposal
<wolfspraul> it either makes sense as a whole or not
<wpwrak> i don't see much of a need for compromises just yet. it's merely an implementation question.
<wolfspraul> ah then let's go through
<wolfspraul> you just said "don't know yet" to the color question
<wolfspraul> > 10 pins is wasteful?
<wolfspraul> that seems to be consensus
<wpwrak> the color is not a compromise - it's a question of picking one that works :)
<wpwrak> yeah, > 10 pins is evil
<wolfspraul> do we really need that many leds? for all usb ports? 3 for video-in ?
<wolfspraul> how about the 2 non-power ones we have on rc3?
<wolfspraul> we just leave them because they were there before, or we remove them because they are not needed in the new overall design?
<wolfspraul> and the power-on one - move to DC jack?
<wpwrak> i'd move the power LED
<wpwrak> the others ... well, at least one shows us how the booting it progressing
<wpwrak> the other too, but to a lesser extent
<wpwrak> alright .. let's switch to the leds ...
<wolfspraul> if we really have those 14+ leds, there will be ample opportunity to watch the booting progress :-)
<GitHub45> [milkymist] wpwrak pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/milkymist/commit/f2650b256ad0a654f465a5d2cc215c4999f1930a
<GitHub45> [milkymist/master] libfpvm: rename op_not to op_bnot, to follow MilkDrop naming - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub77> [flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/6Lo3dQ
<GitHub77> [flickernoise/master] compiler: rename op_not to op_bnot, to follow MilkDrop naming - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub77> [flickernoise/master] compiler: add bnot(x) as MilkDrop-style synonym for !x - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub77> [flickernoise/master] compiler: boolean operations "and" and "or" (WIP, untested) - Werner Almesberger
<wpwrak> lekernel: where did you find the per-bank current rating ? i'm searching in "Spartan-6 FPGA Data Sheet: DC and Switching Characteristics" but don't see it :-(
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@adm02.insa-rennes.fr] has joined #milkymist
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@adm02.insa-rennes.fr] has joined #milkymist
lekernel_ [lekernel_!~lekernel@g226058043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #milkymist
azonenberg [azonenberg!~azonenber@cpe-67-246-33-188.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #milkymist
azonenberg [azonenberg!~azonenber@cpe-67-246-33-188.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #milkymist
<cladamw> use chip equipped with I2C control with output bits to save fpga pins? or AVR?
<wpwrak> step 1: see what multiplexing can do :)
<wpwrak> multiplexing can give you something in the order of 2*sqrt(N) or perhaps even 2*sqrt(N/2)
<wpwrak> so for 20, that would be 4+5 = 9 or maybe even less
<wolfspraul> cladamw: no other ic
<wolfspraul> I want to focus M1 on the Milkymist technology
<wolfspraul> not pile more and more things on it
<wolfspraul> that's my thinking at least
<wpwrak> so much about the clever plan to sneak in an ARM 1 GHz dual core, disguised as LED controller :)
<cladamw> 1. added 20 LEDs to issue unknow bank maximum currents 2. multiplexing chip makes it possible but cost up 3. if we do really need this feature? If not, do we want to change 9*2 to 10*2 for J21/J22? 4. or pull saved fpga pins with suitable connector and find somewhere for it?
<cladamw> now question is should we really need this feature?
<wolfspraul> we don't want to waste a lot of pins on leds
<wolfspraul> we don't want an i2c or so control ic
<wolfspraul> if anything we reduce the number of leds or multiplex them without control ic if possible
<wolfspraul> I think, waiting for Werner's thoughts...
<cladamw> okay
<wpwrak> for 18 LEDs, with multiplexing, we'd need: 18 LEDs, 3 resistors, 6 I/O pins (3 must be capable of If(m1), the other 3 must be capable of 3*If(m1). If(m1) is what we choose, e.g., 6 mA.)
<wpwrak> that multiplexing approach has one disadvantage, though: the LEDs may never be entirely dark. but that could be considered a feature :)
<wolfspraul> sounds scary
<wpwrak> it would be a very faint glow. basically whatever If you get at Vf = 3.3 V/2. in theory, that should be zero. in practice, it's a little bit more. so there will be a photon every once in a while
<wpwrak> let's see how much it is ...
<wpwrak> about 70 uA at 1.7 V with a C190KGKT
<wpwrak> > 100 uA at 1.65 V with a C190KRKT
<wpwrak> (all with 220 Ohm series)
<wpwrak> actually, it would be a bit less in practice, since we'd share the voltage drop
<lekernel_> mh? why can't you turn LEDs entirely off with multiplexing?
<larsc> with a n to n**2 multiplexer one port will always be on, of course you can turn of the multiplexer itself
<wpwrak> lekernel_: in an N*M*2 multiplexer, each crossing has two LEDs (anti-parallel)
<wpwrak> lekernel_: so on each row that's Z, between columns that are H and L, there will be some leakage current
<wpwrak> maybe you could avoid it entirely by Z-ing (instead of 0/1-ing) the column, though
<wpwrak> in any case, the effect should be minor, given that we already drop to a "normal" Vf on the series resistor. so there's not much left for leaking
<wpwrak> we should be good with a duty cycle down to ~10%
<wpwrak> tried green and red. both looks fine through the light blue acrylic.
<wpwrak> green suffers very little dampening, red a bit more. but red is much brighter than green. at least with the LEDs, i used.
<wpwrak> let's check that current ... not sure if the two Vf are really the same
<wpwrak> 8 mA both. hmm. a little high
<wpwrak> ah no, power supply exaggerated. only 6.3-6.4 mA, according to the multimeter. that's acceptable.
<wolfspraul> the power led is not software controlled, right?
<wolfspraul> could that be considered a problem if someone wanted to turn the board entirely dark?
<wpwrak> well, there's always black paint ... :)
<wolfspraul> I'm thinking about the user
<wolfspraul> who has a closed case in front of him in a dark setting, and maybe is frustrated that there is this stupid green light that cannot be turned off at all? I can imagine that.
<wpwrak> the user of black paint will succeed. or the user of a soldering iron :)
<wpwrak> or the oser with a piece of black cloth :)
<wolfspraul> neither is practical or user friendly
<wpwrak> s/oser/user/
<wolfspraul> would there be a way for software to override/disable the power led?
<wpwrak> then a way to control the LED may be appropriate :)
<wolfspraul> just a thought, I haven't heard that from actual users
<wpwrak> lekernel_: what's the default setting of the pins after reset but before configuration again ? pull-down ?
<lekernel_> pull up
<wpwrak> maybe we should make a qi-hw/m1 blog and call it "the overengineer" :-)
<lekernel_> feel free to post on the wordpress :p
<lekernel_> and yes... with those leds... haha
<wpwrak> even easier. then a NPN or equivalent FET should do. by default (pull-up), it'll conduct
<lekernel_> unrelated - is there anything special about http://www.lab126.com ? seems to me it's only the EE lab of amazon
<lekernel_> someone recommended me I check it out when in the US
<lekernel_> and since I have absolutely no intention to work for amazon, well... :)
<wolfspraul> if you have an introduction, sure why not
<wolfspraul> you should be open minded to see how other people work and listen to them
<wolfspraul> even though Amazon is on a good path to match or even surpass Apple in building the perfect secrecy system :-)
<wolfspraul> kinda exactly the opposite of what we do here :-)
<wolfspraul> if you work for them, it's the last time we've heard from you here, for sure...
<wpwrak> this would be the multiplexing matrix: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/mpx.pdf
cladamw [cladamw!~Adam@host-222.80-43-115.dynamic.totalbb.net.tw] has joined #milkymist
<wpwrak> cladams: this would be the multiplexing matrix: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/mpx.pdf
<wpwrak> s/cladams/cladamw/
<cladamw> wpwrak, wow ~
<cladamw> active-low and high to get combinations, but how many LEDs in the end we want to have?
<wpwrak> i don't know yet :)
<wpwrak> can you place LEDs under the R/G/B video in connector ? (there's room there. just don't know if the fab would like that)
<cladamw> excelent on that combination. ;-)
<cladamw> shouldn't have problem.
<wpwrak> kewl :)
<cladamw> that's also cool idea !
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@vpn3.enssat.univ-rennes1.fr] has joined #milkymist
<cladamw> do you want those half-reserved pins to be pulled out?
<wpwrak> the pins you now assigned to LEDs ? whatever is more convenient for you. in the end, we should only need ~6 pins
<wolfspraul> maybe we can switch the color of all leds to red?
<wolfspraul> if I think about red vs. green, I can be a little more excited about red, I think
<wpwrak> heh :)
<wolfspraul> the pcb is black, the case light-blue
<wolfspraul> black & red is good
<wpwrak> red is often brighter
<wolfspraul> then they are just all red, nothing green
<cladamw> 18 LEDs? don't know which two you didn't want?
wolfspraul [wolfspraul!~wolfsprau@p5B0AAA47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #milkymist
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@adm02.insa-rennes.fr] has joined #milkymist
Martoni [Martoni!~chatzilla@ip-167-165.evhr.net] has joined #milkymist
DJTachyon [DJTachyon!~Tachyon@ool-43529b4a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #milkymist
<Fallenou> blue is often very bright too (or maybe it just depends on the led properties)
<Fallenou> I just noticed that on a few dev boards with several led colors, the blue is generally the brighter one IIRC, don't know if this means anything
<Fallenou> when you chose a led you can chose the number of cd (light intensity) on farnell website :o
<wpwrak> yes, blue is bright. also needs a high voltage, though
Gurty [Gurty!~princess@78.250.179.43] has joined #milkymist
<wpwrak> let's see aboutthe cost ..
<wolfspraul> red works well with the black pcb
<wpwrak> red (the one i regularly use): LTST-C190KRKT, 54 mcd @ 20 mA, 2.0 V, USD 62.10 (1000)
<wpwrak> best blue < 3.3 V: LNJ937W8CRA, 17 mcd @ 5 mA, 2.9 V, USD 133 (1000)
<wpwrak> let's see if there's a better red now
<wpwrak> and indeed, there is. e.g., this one is almost twice as bright: APT1608SRCPRV, 100 mcd @ 20 mA, 1.85 V, USD 58.00 (1000)
<wpwrak> even this one is cheaper: APT1608SURCK, 220 mcd @ 20 mA, 1.95 V, USD 62.00 (1000)
<wpwrak> all these are upward-facing. not sure if we'd rather want sideways-facing
<wpwrak> in any case, they have an angle of ~120-130 deg. so you can see them well from the side
<wpwrak> now .. let's see if i can find all of adam's 20 LEDs :)
<wpwrak> ah, that's the old ones plus 17 new. got it.
<wpwrak> of these, one becomes a special case (LED3, DC in). that is, if we want to add the possibility to turn it off completely
<wpwrak> at least LED1 (?) should probably stay the way it was, because the use would be a simple boot status indication
<wpwrak> will we reduce the number of buttons to one ?
<wpwrak> adams' LED_ETHERNET seems unnecessary. there are no less than two LEDs already, beautifully integrated in the ethernet connector. and they work today :)
<wpwrak> on the other hand, adam has no LEDs for audio in/out/mic
<wpwrak> so if we keep all the ones he suggested, plus audio, minus ethernet, that would then be +19 LEDs
<wpwrak> the USB LED idea is a tad problematic. first, it seems to be quite uncommon. but then, i could imagine that a status indication could be rahter useful
<wpwrak> second, with vertically stacked USB receptacles, how do we indicate which is which. hmm.
<wpwrak> ah, and perhaps we should make all the LEDs glow a little intentionally, so that one can see where the others are (that would be a sw problem)
scrts [scrts!~quassel@unaffiliated/scrts] has joined #milkymist
scrts [scrts!~quassel@2001:778:200:23a1:219:d1ff:fe8c:53ea] has joined #milkymist
scrts [scrts!~quassel@unaffiliated/scrts] has joined #milkymist
<wolfspraul> I think we can reduce the buttons to 1
<wolfspraul> and I think we can reduce the number of leds, but I would have a hard time telling you which one to cut
<wolfspraul> if the pins are reduced now that's a first step though, maybe enough
antgreen [antgreen!~user@bas3-toronto06-1176449739.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #milkymist
<lekernel_> 19 LEDs? USB LEDs? huh...
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> relax, let's trust werner's aesthetic judgment
<wolfspraul> he is testing...
<wolfspraul> lekernel_: 19 leds is the ultimate arduino attack! :-)
<wolfspraul> that's why m1 is more expensive :-)
<wpwrak> maybe we can then save the DMX output ;-)
<wpwrak> i also tried blue. but red is brighter, even the old red i have
<wolfspraul> i've heard several times that blue looks bad and cheap
<wpwrak> and you can get twice the mcd for a minimum difference
<wolfspraul> last time I think from roh
<wpwrak> hehe ;-)
<wolfspraul> but you are testing, I think we should follow with what you *see*
<wolfspraul> I'm not going to remote-fiddle with that
<wpwrak> nothing is as obsolete as yesterday's fashion :)
<wolfspraul> the blue leds I have seen do look strange, like not really blue or so, don't know
<wpwrak> remote-fiddling would be nice. but i think it's hopeless to try to convey the impression of colors and led intensity in pictures :-(
<wolfspraul> no, let's not
<wpwrak> (well, convey, yes. but it would show what i want you to see :)
<wolfspraul> you have the transparent-blue case, you have everything needed. so you can make the aethetic judgment, and if you do I would be more than happy about that.
<wolfspraul> aesthetic
<wolfspraul> my #1 feedback before was "oh my, too many fpga pins wasted"
<wolfspraul> that seems to have been addressed
<wolfspraul> my #1 feedback would be, since we work on leds anyway - can we also disable *all of them* ?
<wolfspraul> sorry that's the #2 feedback :-)
<wpwrak> it's more a functional judgment. for the aesthetics, i don't feel anything that says "wow" or "aww"
<wolfspraul> yes agreed, I don't believe this will drive sales directly, it's more what makes you feel good about the product, and then we can hopefully convey that feeling to our users
<wpwrak> yes, we can disable all of them. needs one FPGA pin and a transistor
<wpwrak> what i'm more worried about is finding good places, so that one can actually see what they refer to. and now just get drowned in a sea of lights.
<wolfspraul> then my #3 feedback would be that the 3 leds we have could be focused better.
<wolfspraul> yes, agreed
<wolfspraul> I think the 3 leds we have is just an initial design idea (and not a bad one), to have 'three' because that's a nice initial choice
<wolfspraul> like the 3 buttons
<wolfspraul> but if we go and work on leds now, the meaning of those 3 should become part of the newer larger idea, and we don't just leave those 3 around there because there were there before
<wolfspraul> if we add leds for ports, I think we can remove 2 of those 3, and just leave the power-on one
<wolfspraul> what would people really do with those leds, I'm still wondering ;-)
<wolfspraul> I just imagine my m1 here would have 15+ leds :-)
<wolfspraul> and then what?
<wolfspraul> it would blink like crazy all the time?
<wolfspraul> that would definitely make it look alive
<wolfspraul> yeah why not, m1 illuminated...
<Fallenou> hope it will not be an eye killer
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: can you include the existing 3 leds in your thinking?
<wolfspraul> hey, just because we are discussing - how about leds at the bottom side of the pcb?
<wolfspraul> with the semi-transparent acrylic we have that might look quite interesting
<wolfspraul> like the m1 is floating
<wolfspraul> it could cause emi trouble though and we also still have this whole issue with the bottom metal sheet and Joerg's proposal with 'X' aluminum wires...
<wolfspraul> anyway, just had that idea :-)
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@vpn3.enssat.univ-rennes1.fr] has joined #milkymist
<wpwrak> Fallenou: we can always dim things :)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (bottom) hmm, would have to give this a try
<wpwrak> (existing leds) agreed on moving LED1 (DC power)
<wpwrak> for LED2/LED3, i wouldn't mind getting rid of one of them. we'd lose a little bit of boot information, but not a lot
<wpwrak> the remaining one could then snuggle up to the button
<wolfspraul> ok
<wpwrak> now, waiting for my camera to charge ...
<wpwrak> let's hope the camouflage painting on the led cable does the trick
<wpwrak> any preference on where LEDs should go if we can't place them under/in front of the item ?
<wpwrak> i.e., always left, always right, maximize spread, ... ?
<wolfspraul> hmm. which one for example?
<wpwrak> let's say the audio-mic-vga line
<wolfspraul> for those 3 I'd say on the right side, towards the front
<wpwrak> right side as seen from the front ?
<wolfspraul> close to the acrylic, but on the right side of the connectors
<wpwrak> sounds good. how about dmx and midi ?
<wpwrak> 4 leds there
<wolfspraul> dmx looks like they could be under the connector, towards the front
<wolfspraul> but we need to ask adam about mechanical or assembly problems
<wolfspraul> for the midi connectors, there is no such space, so it can only be on the side again, towards the front imho
<wolfspraul> bbiab
<wpwrak> (dmx) hmm, partially. seems a bit too narrow in the middle. but a bit on the side should be fine
<GitHub81> [migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to newnamer: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/4eac60d181748d1b09583b63f00e0096bdeb8a10
<GitHub81> [migen/newnamer] New naming system: second attempt - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
proppy [proppy!u1692@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-reoxvtlbfembkprs] has joined #milkymist
<GitHub126> [migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to newnamer: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/00d3eb7989c9d4d8ada2f3ae60ef442b285b261e
<GitHub126> [migen/newnamer] Always include last step in names - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
wpwrak [wpwrak!~werner@94-163-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #milkymist
<wpwrak> boom. nice X crash
<wpwrak> nice :)
<wolfspraul> yes! great!
<wolfspraul> let's support these guys well and let's all believe in the future of Milkymist!
<wolfspraul> then more will join for sure...
<wolfspraul> he has a very positive attitude there, that's inspiring
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@adm02.insa-rennes.fr] has joined #milkymist
scrts [scrts!~quassel@unaffiliated/scrts] has quit ["http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."]
elldekaa [elldekaa!~hyviquel@vpn3.enssat.univ-rennes1.fr] has joined #milkymist
wpwrak [wpwrak!~werner@94-163-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #milkymist
aeris- [aeris-!~aerith@home.aerith.fr] has joined #milkymist
DJTachyon [DJTachyon!~Tachyon@ool-43529b4a.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #milkymist
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I'm thinking about the expansion board again
<wolfspraul> why is the distance between the two headers 45mm ?
<wolfspraul> and second, what do we say, in general, about stacking expansion boards?
<wolfspraul> if someone stacks them, the 45mm area between the headers is the largest contiguous space, and that's quite small
<wolfspraul> that was all ;-) just thinking...
<wolfspraul> ha yeah, that's funny!
<wolfspraul> MT is Montana?
<wolfspraul> yes, it is