<infobot>
methinks pi is 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091
<DocScrutinizer05>
~2*pi
<infobot>
6.2831853
<DocScrutinizer05>
~2*pi-0
<infobot>
6.2831853
<DocScrutinizer05>
~pi-0
<infobot>
3.14159265
<DocScrutinizer05>
~e
<infobot>
rumour has it, e is a little more than 2, but less than 3 or portuguese for and, or very roughly 2.71828182, or mc^2, or the most worthless letter in the alphabet according to extensive research done by withoutclass
<DocScrutinizer05>
~e-0
<infobot>
2.718281828459
<useretail>
alright, i guess it's time to go to bed
<useretail>
:)
<useretail>
cya guys
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<Oksana>
So, Green Light Electronics have given positive reply about the 1GB RAM?
<Oksana>
What's the difference between DM3730CBP100 and DM3730CBPD100? Besides price and operating temperature? Because I would enjoy frost-hardiness of the latter, but I can imagine that additional cost is hardly worth it, for most use-cases.
<Oksana>
Quuiiieeeettttt......
<Oksana>
Will you write down "Operating conditions" for each component on the block diagram? Or are most people not concerned about that? Given global warming, temperatures higher than 40℃ will become not unusual soon. And given the electronics heat themselves up... They will need to be more heat-resistant. Up to a point, of course. For example, point of self-combustion of paper sticker on the...
<Oksana>
...battery :-)
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<Oksana>
Will you update the "September 13, 2014" on the main page of http://neo900.org/ any time soon? Preferably, before Christmas shopping comes?
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<Oksana>
Good night
<useretail>
Oksana: Good night
<useretail>
and Good morning :D
<freemangordon>
jonwil: seems like harm iir_eq is neon-optimized, unlike the one in fremantle which is plain C. having that opt in fremantle should give us some nice speed boost :)
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<Oksana>
How terrible would it be to run an fsck on Neo900? Based on its internal memory, CPU, RAM specifications? :-)
<bencoh>
:]
<Wizzup>
?
<Wizzup>
Why wouldn't you be able to do fsck?
<Wizzup>
The n900 does it just fine too, and often, as well.
<Oksana>
I just heard that fsck -af of MyDocs (around 32GB?) on N900 takes too long. Unless it is being done from an external PC computer.
<Wizzup>
I doubt that very much.
<Oksana>
Believe me, it was running for half an hour already, and no sight that it's going to end soon.
<Wizzup>
First of all, you're working on fat, on relatively slow storage. If you filled that up completely, it may take some time. 30 minutes already sounds quite long, you're probably, sorry to say, just doing it wrong
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<Openbot>
Adgrtgvhntyhgwut
<Openbot>
Irc logs down ?
<Openbot>
It works now after dozens of refresh
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<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: green light hasn't answered yet, to me. But it *seems*_they_ answered to some of the community members helping behind the scenes, and it wasn't a positive answer.
<DocScrutinizer05>
"D" is actually only about operating range and price iirc. We will select the wider operating range usually, when it's not more than a few percent difference in price. And we will provide rated operation range data once we sourced the components
<DocScrutinizer05>
battry has a clearly defined operating range and that's ending at ~65°C
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((update)) yes I wish this would happen any time soon. Alas dos1 is very busy with studies and not that active in Neo900 project anymore
<DocScrutinizer05>
which has become a problem damaging the public image of the project
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((RAM)) on the bright side our wizards maybe found a way to source "quantities" of our 1GB chip, alas we cannot afford to get the needed number of chips. So what do you think, is it reasonable to continue our planning based on an assumed volume of devices to build == 1000? And do you think we could raise 1000 donations/purchases of a RAM chip costing maybe 15EUR? In a few days? What shall Neo900 UG do?
<DocScrutinizer05>
to be clear, I'm talking about Neo900 supporters out there buying a 1000 RAM chips a 15EUR each, at Neo900 UG, during next few days (max one week, preferably until monday already)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or should we get only 500 and thus limit the number of devices we can build to 500 (-15% for defects and warranty handling)?
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<kolp>
any way a third-party can 'loan' the required funds to neo900 ug?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, that's a tad difficult. We of course could try to get such sort of venture capital from arbitrary source, but what when the project implodes nevertheless? I'm not that much in a pinch since I'm not personally liable for a Neo900 UG going down on bankruptcy when things go epically awry (unless I did fraud or whatever), but the entity that gives venture capital will not get the money back, and odds are that such entity would get all
<DocScrutinizer05>
of the remaining funds if there are any, and our donors lose everything
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm rather reluctant to accept any VC before we have someting tabgible to show off which proves we *can* pull this thing off. The higher the risk for VC, the more they want to have a saying in what to do and how the product shall be and get marketed
<DocScrutinizer05>
tangible*
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd rather do a veritable sale of goods to our customers, even when those goods are chips and components that will stay at factory unless a customers asks for shipping
<kolp>
right
<kolp>
I just don't think collecting x€ from each donnor with a few days is feasible
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's see how we draft this :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not like we had no money, there are some funds on the bank, but we will need them to develop and build the device prototypes. Doesn't rule out the option to temporarily finance a risk part purchase
<jake42>
what's the current device count?
<DocScrutinizer05>
380+
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it still seems valid to assume a factor >2 or even >3 for final orders / preorders
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<DocScrutinizer05>
one more thing to consider: a price break often happens at qty 1000
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<jake42>
only ordering 500 chips (=425 devices) will limit further new donations within the next 2-3 months
<jake42>
would that be a bad thing?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, since we hope to sell a few thousand in the end :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but honestly that's actually not only my call, it's you, the Neo900 community to have a word on this as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the ram chip: it gets significantly cheaper when ordering a 1000
<DocScrutinizer05>
otoh weh we cannot sell the 1000 chips/devices in the end, then price per device will possibly rise instead of go down, when we order 1000 chips now
<DocScrutinizer05>
when*
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's say we can sell only 500 devices but order 1000 chips now. let's further say they cost 10EUR per chip instead 15EUR, when we order 1000 instead of 500. Then the device price will go up a 10EUR instead of going down a 5
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually no, the price will go up only 5EUR, since when we order 500 now, then 15EUR are for RAM, when we order 1000 now but sell only 500, then it's 20EUR per device for RAM
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<kolp>
put 2x1GB in each device then :P
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<DocScrutinizer05>
that's not possible since OMAP3 has not the address range on memory bus
<Wizzup>
aw
<DocScrutinizer05>
even for going 512MB -> 1024MB you need to use ChipSelect signals to address two virtually separate RAM chips in the PoP
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually the memory is not 1024MB but two banks a 512MB
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no way to have more than 2 banks
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least not in a meaningful way
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm a tad puzzled that users seem to think they paid for producing ready made devices with their 100EUR donation, which in turn would mean that we ask for 600% win margin :-o
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<DocScrutinizer05>
alas our win margin is way closer to 6% than to 600%
<DocScrutinizer05>
see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1442609#post1442609, where I listed 1GB RAM for 25EUR, now (maybe) we can get it for significantly less and users seem to frown at that, instead of cheering that we made it to source this mystery critter
<jake42>
seems like some haven't fully understood how this project works
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm drafting an answer to tmo thread already
<jake42>
the only money Neo900 UG has is from donations, which in the worst case is at the moment 1/7th of predicted device cost
<DocScrutinizer05>
was, before we paid quite some stuff from it
<jake42>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's the amount we originally assumed we'll need for R&D, and we had that estimation quite a bit on the humble side tbh
<DocScrutinizer05>
sourcing of parts never been part of that estimation
<jake42>
btw, how is developing version2 going a long?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
jake42: I sent a list of "corrections" to Nik a few days ago
<DocScrutinizer05>
roundabout 50 or so
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we've been busy to source the RAM chip for last week or so
<DocScrutinizer05>
werner and me constantly working on defining the last not-yet-finalized specs like exact details of hackerbus a.s.o.
<DocScrutinizer05>
domesheets being another background task I'm working on
<DocScrutinizer05>
right atm Werner checks every single component for its "risk" status
<DocScrutinizer05>
incredible job he's doing!
<wpwrak>
(every single) naw, just the ones in the block diagram. too lazy for "every single" :) (besides, all the the critical bits and pieces should be in the block diagram. we may still have some unpleasant surprises later, but hopefully none of them more than a brief inconvenience)
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: do you really thing there will be a need of 1000 SoCs? See the campaign gos for some year and a half (or similar), so far only 380 donations > 100 Eu. What is the chance you'll have ~600 more donations before the device is out?
<freemangordon>
s/gos/got
<jonwil>
Only think stopping me from putting my own name down for a Neo900 is that I still dont have employment and cant afford the cost of one :)
<wpwrak>
freemangordon: there may be quite number of people hiding in the woods who'll only get involved very late. and apparently estimates suggest that this would be quite a lot of people.
<jonwil>
thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: we calculate with a certain amount of customers not willing to dinate early
<jonwil>
But I suspect my technical contributions make up for my inability to contribute financially :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
donate*
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: they do :-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
jonwil: you're clearly on our list of devels who need a devel device
<freemangordon>
(oot) jonwil: I bet you'll get a device for freee at the end
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: wpwrak: so you think there are lots more potential customers waiting for something real to happen? (real as a real device)
<freemangordon>
imagine what will happen when the first devices are out:
<DocScrutinizer05>
3 independent estimations all came up with factors between 3 and 5
<freemangordon>
ooh, fremantle works, but not on 100% (camera waits for fmg and jonwil to RE the algos)
<DocScrutinizer05>
*could* be even factor 10 or 15
<freemangordon>
for example
<freemangordon>
well, ok, I won't argue, I am engineer after all
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hope that won't happen, keep in mind you'll receive devices from prot_3 run
<DocScrutinizer05>
and particularly camera is sufficently 100% identical to N900 so it already works OOTB
<freemangordon>
so what? I still don't work fulltime on that project
<wpwrak>
freemangordon: i think a more realistic picture would be cat + laser pointer, where you substitute the apex predator with prospective neo900 buyer and the laser pointer with the now finished and really (mostly) working neo900 :)
<freemangordon>
wpwrak: sorry, I am a couple of jacks ahead, you lost me on that one :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
not only him ;-)
<wpwrak>
freemangordon: i'd expect that a lot of people will find themselves to be irresistibly attracted once it's really there :) (that always happens. tell people about something in the works and they go "meh". show it to them and they go "must have. can you sell me yours right here and now ?")
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<freemangordon>
wpwrak: sure, but wouldn't be too late to start the production again when (and if) that happens?
<DocScrutinizer05>
so factor 2 is really humble
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's exactly the point
<DocScrutinizer05>
starting sourcing again for batch2 will be a big trouble and PITA
<freemangordon>
hmm, ok. I see
<wpwrak>
freemangordon: that's what we're afraid of. we noticed than some parts are already very hard to source. harder than we thought.
<freemangordon>
what about some extra marketing in advance?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and will be even harder to source in now+10months
<wpwrak>
grrr, not having much luck with that/than today :(
<freemangordon>
sure
<Wizzup>
Is it better for neo900 if I pay more up front / donate more now?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Wizzup: yes, of course
<Wizzup>
alright, I will consider that and probably act upon that soon
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what all this noise today is all about