DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: http://neo900.org | conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23neo900/ and http://irclog.whitequark.org/neo900
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<ZetaR> Hi folks. What is the news? (been away for a few weeks, but read the chat logs). Did the stuff with PayPal get worked out?
<DocScrutinizer05> not yet
<ZetaR> That makes me sad. It is a really stupid problem to have.
<DocScrutinizer05> it's not mega important _when_ it gets solved, just impartant _that_ it gets solved
<DocScrutinizer05> so we're preparing a bit better to any possible concerns they might rise
<ZetaR> It just makes me anxious because I worry that the project could be harmed because of this, because they have the ability to do so without a significant requirement for reasonableness.
<DocScrutinizer05> basicaly yes, but worst case we could ask all our customers tp pester them
<DocScrutinizer05> PP can't keep the money
<ZetaR> Okay, I guess. I just wonder if they can't in theory, but can in practice.
<DocScrutinizer05> but for now, not a urgent issue, just a very important one
<ZetaR> Right.
<ZetaR> Most important now I guess is getting orders before you need to commit to specific numbers.
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<ZetaR> First on my TODO list: write a Wikipedia page for the Neo900.
<DocScrutinizer05> exactly
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds good :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: did you notice Neo900 crew will join CCCAMP15 ?
<DocScrutinizer05> I hope for a certain positive effect on visibility and interested people
<DocScrutinizer05> Werner will do a talk
<DocScrutinizer05> and we will meet with devuan guys and other interesting projects that could be beneficial on Neo900
<ZetaR> I saw something about that in the logs. It is a convention in Germany?
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<ZetaR> Cool. I wish I could come, but it is a little far. =(
<DocScrutinizer05> it's huge. ~4500 participants
<ZetaR> Awesome. That sounds like it will help a lot.
<DocScrutinizer05> hope so :-)
<ZetaR> Are you planning on committing on risk buy part numbers before or after CCCAMP?
<DocScrutinizer05> I think we will want and need to postpone it until after camp
<ZetaR> Okay, so then the deadline for improvements to project info/visibility on the web is around August 13.
<ZetaR> (to maximize effect on the final number of Neo900s that is)
<DocScrutinizer05> err somewhat, yes. We won't change a lot about project visibility/info during camp
<ZetaR> Right. Do you know what else someone like me can do to improve online visibility (besides the Wiki page)?
<DocScrutinizer05> otoh I'm busy reviewing webpage right now and trying to get a few updates done, particularly for PP issue and for those who visit the page during "preparation for camp" - IOW who learned about the project even before camp but from camp. See https://events.ccc.de/camp/2015/wiki/Village:Neo
<DocScrutinizer05> ZetaR: I think a wikipedia page is a quite demanding task and no need for even more workload for now ;-)
<ZetaR> I just like to plan things out in advance; I only intend to work on one thing at a time. Is that CCCamp page editable by non-CCCamp/project people?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, basically it is. Though this page is a fowm that's pretty non-editable except for the content
<DocScrutinizer05> form*
<DocScrutinizer05> most of the wili is edit-locked
<DocScrutinizer05> wiki*
<ZetaR> Yeah, but I can see if I can add some content to it to explain more about the project.
<DocScrutinizer05> we'll do that
<ZetaR> Ah, okay.
<DocScrutinizer05> it's about the village, not about the project at large
<DocScrutinizer05> so we need to plan what we actually _do_ there before we update the page
<DocScrutinizer05> as soon as I'm happy with the neo900.org webpage again, I'll add a link to the neo village wiki page
<ZetaR> Okay.
<DocScrutinizer05> and a wikipedia page would be mad useful in that context, it's less "biased" and tainted with commercial interest
<ZetaR> I am going through the open source hardware pages on Wikipedia now, to pick out ones that might have good bits to use as templates for the Neo900 page.
<DocScrutinizer05> I can't link to a strictly commercial website, otherwise my neighbour villages would be M$ and Asus on the camp
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<DocScrutinizer05> and you won't find any such commercial villages. I don't think Neo900 project is commercial like e.g. Asus, but our webpage doesn't really elaborate on that
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe I'm too paranoid/critical about that aspect
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<DocScrutinizer05> best support for cccamp you (community) can do: join the village as member :-D
<ZetaR> Commercial usually implies for-profit. Just point out that labor is being done significantly below market price (IIRC this was said somewhere), which implies mostly volunteerism, and that the final product is intended to be sold around the cost it took to make it. For-profit companies would not do either of those.
<ZetaR> Even if I cannot come?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, this is correct
<DocScrutinizer05> well, probably then not :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> though, I don't think supprters not attending physically are generally excluded ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> it however doesn't really help to organize things when we don't know how many of those that gave Neo village as their "home" are really attending
<DocScrutinizer05> so I guess "Members" actually means "physically present at village"
<ZetaR> A thought on the website: One thing I like to see when looking at a project website is recent signs of activity; even if it is something that seems mundane or uninteresting, it lets me know that "stuff" is happening. An idea of mine was to have a photo every week or couple of weeks of what is being done on the project, even if it is just working at a computer or fiddling with the prototype.
<DocScrutinizer05> that's a nice idea, however our web maintainers don't like those frequent updates it seems. Instead we got that microblog which is a tad awkward for photos
<DocScrutinizer05> actually I came up with exactly same idea maybe a year ago already
<ZetaR> You could try scaled down photos. If they don't show something too complicated, it might be fine.
<DocScrutinizer05> err, you're aware that microblog is a twitter like thing with text msgs up to 140 chars?
<ZetaR> Well, I wasn't until now. It looked sort of like that, but I didn't know the limitation.
<DocScrutinizer05> a news you might have missed (since we have no appropriate news channel except tmo for that): PLS8 now announced to have UART (like PHS8 always had) and - *NEW* - DUAL SIM interface
<ZetaR> I saw that! Awesome.
<ZetaR> So does this mean you can be on two networks at once?
<ZetaR> Rather than one at a time with the multiplexer.
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<DocScrutinizer05> I tried to convince our web editing crew to have the dual-SIM as a 10th rectangle in http://neo900.org/#features
<DocScrutinizer05> (two networks) that's completely unclear so far. But at least all prerequisites are in place now, so Gemalto *could* implement Doual-SIM-Dual-Standby, yes
<ZetaR> Then it would not be a rectangle. You would need 12 items, or change the layout possibly, or commit yourself to offending those with OCD.
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<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, OCD?
<ZetaR> Obsessive-compulsive disorder, usually loosely used.
<DocScrutinizer05> ahh
<ZetaR> AFK for a bit.
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, why not 12? no problem with that. Except I need to talk the designers into doing it, since I'm not competent to do such layout changes
<DocScrutinizer05> we have NFC for such a rectangle (10), then Dual-SIM (11) and we recently kicked battery-hotswap since it's not working that spectacular as originally planned, anymore and we needed the 9th rectangle for sth else. So that's 12 already
<DocScrutinizer05> oops nope, battery hotswap still in
<DocScrutinizer05> err nope, sorry again, I forgot to refresh my browser page content
<DocScrutinizer05> but we got NFC already, it replaced hotswap. So we're still short of one rectangle to get 12 ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: btw I notice a ">= EUR 100" in http://neo900.org/static/plan.png - I don't know if that's always been there or since last update, anyway I don't get it whyt it means. Looks like it jumpt to new position probably from "Donations" bar below
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<ZetaR> My neighborhood is wreathed in smoke and the air smells of sulfur. In the distance explosions can be heard, though a little while ago someone was firing mortars over the pond behind my house.
<DocScrutinizer05> where the heck do you live?
<ZetaR> In the USA. =)
<DocScrutinizer05> .ua?
<ZetaR> It is Independence Day.
<DocScrutinizer05> aaah
<ZetaR> Those are firework mortars, not antipersonnel ones.
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<DocScrutinizer05> then enjoy, while I go afk for a while
<ZetaR> Thank you.
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<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: the ">= 100 EUR" is meant to express that the number of units we'd consider risk-buying for is based on the number of >= 100 EUR donations
<wpwrak> and it's been there from the beginning. all that changes recently (i.e., last may) in that diagram is the position of the "we are here" pointer
<wpwrak> (is based on) or at least was back then. the calculation for the remaining risk-buy items is based on pre-orders. the one risk-buy point the circle suggests is admittedly a bit simpler than what we're doing
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<user456_> hi there, on the shop page it says to place the preorder before the end of June. So, is it still in time for the first batch? Cuz I'm still struggling...
<DocScrutinizer05> hi user456_. We're late with collecting preorders, so there's still time
<user456_> guess I'm lucky : )
<user456_> thanks
<DocScrutinizer05> the "deadline" will get moved to mid of next month
<DocScrutinizer05> even after that, you still can preorder, but the chances that we can find all the needed components for your device will dwindle
<DocScrutinizer05> details on that in due time
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<user456_> ah, I'll take that time to think about it. The Pyra will be ready in about 4-6 months so I'm still a bit concerned about payment for both projects at about the same time
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<paulk-collins> hey, I'm preparing a talk about freeing mobile devices from the ground up for RMLL/LSM in a couple days: https://2015.rmll.info/liberating-mobile-devices-from-the-ground-up?lang=en
<paulk-collins> I'll mention the neo900 there
<paulk-collins> I'm wondering, where can I find the high-res version of http://neo900.org/static/neo900-t.png
<paulk-collins> and also the one without the openphoenux logo?
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<paulk-collins> dos1, yeah, that!
<paulk-collins> thanks :)
<paulk-collins> anythign I should not forget to say about the recents wereabouts of the project?
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<DocScrutinizer05> paulk-collins: that probably depends on the general topic of the talk I'd guess
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe mention that unlike the other commercial devices you list in your summary, the Neo900/GTA04 are *designed* to be free
<DocScrutinizer05> and that Neo900 even includes further unique features to make absolutely sure the modem or anything else cannot compromise the User's/OS security/privacy
<DocScrutinizer05> and freedom
<paulk-collins> right
<paulk-collins> (wget, it's a slow line)
<DocScrutinizer05> konqueror/kio-slaves will handle it ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> 110/KiB/s
<DocScrutinizer05> good enough
<DocScrutinizer05> and already finished
<DocScrutinizer05> >> Modem isolation (hard to figure out reliably) << hmm? that seems easy enough to verify reliability when you get the schematics
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, well the point is always "are the schematics matching what's on the board"
<paulk-collins> which is very hard to verify
<paulk-collins> especially given the X layers of each device
<DocScrutinizer05> ohmy
<paulk-collins> it comes down to trust eventually
<DocScrutinizer05> sure Gemalto could produce a special modem module for us that only says "PLS8" but actually has a shared RAM interface, if we would find a way to hide the changed footprint of modem (more pins needed) from our customers
<paulk-collins> that's the idea
<DocScrutinizer05> you also can't know if there's actually an OMAP3 uunder the RAM/NAND PoP chip, or a custum made ASIC that only pretends to be an OMAP but actually is something rogue
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<paulk-collins> well, backdoors in chips, true
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<paulk-collins> security/privacy is hard :)
<DocScrutinizer05> this however would assume I'm a strawman of a very huge stealth operation that has basically unlimited funds, to achive... what?
<paulk-collins> well s/you/samsung/, it's no the same game
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm talking about Neo900
<paulk-collins> and it quickly sounds a lot less silly
<paulk-collins> sure
<paulk-collins> I do trust you :)
<paulk-collins> I suppose most people do
<DocScrutinizer05> Samsung for sure might have built some backdoors into exynos on silicon level
<DocScrutinizer05> nfc what chipsets those devices use
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry, afk, social obligations. BBL (2h)
<paulk-collins> ok
<paulk-collins> np
<DocScrutinizer05> ok, another 3 min time
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is 1GHz, not 800-1000
<DocScrutinizer05> modem isolation (apart GPS) -- is a tad misleading
<DocScrutinizer05> basically GPS is peripheral of modem is peripheral of Application CPU
<DocScrutinizer05> and the GPS still is completely disable-able by CPU, overruling any rogue effort in modem
<DocScrutinizer05> afk again
<bencoh> how do you know te gps is disabled ?
<DocScrutinizer05> how would it be active without antenna?
<bencoh> oh, that rf switch
<DocScrutinizer05> when you ask how we detect it *tries* to go active despite we didn't ask for that: we may notice from "power to active-amplified GPS antenna" provided on the the according modem pin, as well as from power consumption of modem at large
<DocScrutinizer05> p15 dup
<DocScrutinizer05> > Very similar to the GTA04 > Same bottlenecks
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 has 1GB RAM
<DocScrutinizer05> RAM is the major bottleneck at least on N900, possibly on GTA04 too
<DocScrutinizer05> omap3630 is not a GP device, the even numbers are HS
<DocScrutinizer05> if it was GP, it had a 3730
<DocScrutinizer05> (P970)
<Pali> 3 is odd, 6 is odd too :-)
<Pali> err another 3
<Pali> so just second number? (7)
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<Pali> ok
<DocScrutinizer05> 34xx 36xx : HS, 35xx 37xx same but GP
<Pali> anyway, I found out that kernel-power has needed kernel patch for UDF filesystem
<Pali> what do you think about UDF on uSD card?
<DocScrutinizer05> no particular notion about it
<Pali> supported by Linux 2.6.30+, Windows Vista+, Mac OS X 10.5+ out of box
<Pali> also on BSD systems
<Pali> modern filesystem with unix permissions which is working without installing any 3rd driver on lot of systems...
<Pali> I'm thinking that it can be good alternative to FAT32 when multiOS support is required
<Pali> (which for uSD cards and removable disks is needed)
<Pali> there is just one (maybe big?) problem with UDF
<DocScrutinizer05> paulk-collins: I reviewed the slides, looks good except the above mentioned details
<Pali> all existing tools for formatting block device for UDF are broken :-( except newfs_udf from netbsd
<Pali> so formatting should be done on netbsd... but now I was able to compile that netbsd tool on linux!
<Pali> it is first time I saw SW which cannot be compiled with GNU Make
<Pali> and some funny BSD Make (pmake) is needed
<Pali> I would like to see more devices with Linux kernel compiled with UDF support
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, nice, thanks
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, bottlenecks are about software freedom
<paulk-collins> "omap3630 is not a GP device, the even numbers are HS"
<paulk-collins> that looks factually incorrect
<paulk-collins> well, I should check
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 has DM3730, N9 (HS device) has OMAP3630
<DocScrutinizer05> they use same POP chip
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, BOM clearly says 3630 for p970
<paulk-collins> EAN61966001 OMAP3630-Non Package 1.8V TO 3.3V 100mA 27MHz 0 0 515P - BGA R/TP-T 515P TEXAS INSTRUMENTS KOREA LTD, HONGKONG BRANCH.
<paulk-collins> .0
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<bencoh> Pali: how does it (udf) behave as a daily RW fs ?
<bencoh> (and not a plain dvd-r/rw)
<Pali> bencoh: UDF as "mode" for random access R/W
<DocScrutinizer05> paulk-collins: N9 definitely has OMAP3630 and I'm pretty sure it is a HS device
<Pali> it has also mode for WORM disks
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, sure, but it doesn't mean all 3630 are HS
<Pali> and also something between
<DocScrutinizer05> afaik it means exactly that
<Pali> (rewritable CD/DVD/...)
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, now it has the RAM on top, so I cannot check on the chip
<paulk-collins> DocScrutinizer05, well it's possible
<paulk-collins> even though I didn't find mention of that in the TRM
<paulk-collins> (the 3630 TRM mentions the possibility of both GP and HS)
<DocScrutinizer05> TRM are only available for GP devices
<DocScrutinizer05> afaik
<paulk-collins> well there is one for 3630
<DocScrutinizer05> well, maybe I'm completely wrong, nevermind
<DocScrutinizer05> actually I guess the 34/36 are for commercial consumers while the 35/37 is for the unwashed public
<DocScrutinizer05> possibly there are GP 36
<DocScrutinizer05> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/processors/overview.page might have info I forgot about
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<DocScrutinizer05> actually http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?baseLiteratureNumber=swpt024&fileType=pdf says "M-Shield *available* in all" for 34/36. It makes sense they buold only one chip and program it to be HS or GP
<DocScrutinizer05> the 35/37 have no M-Shield available afaik
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