DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #neo900 to: | conversations are logged to and
ashneo76 has joined #neo900
merlin_1991 is now known as merlin1991
merlin1991 has quit [Changing host]
merlin1991 has joined #neo900
Humpelstilzchen has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Humpelstilzchen has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
R0b0t1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
R0b0t1 has joined #neo900
pigeons has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<R0b0t1> DocScrutinizer05: nice @ sys-boot settings
PeperPots___ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
XDS2010 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
gr8 has joined #neo900
paulk-aldrin has joined #neo900
<gr8> hi, the Neo900 sounds awesome and it claims to care about my privacy. But what about radio triangulation? See This is a major concern for me, in fact I don't use mobile phones for this reason. I guess the very same problem applies to the Neo900? Is it possible to disable the phone antenna and LTE and just use Wifi?
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, I would say yes and yes
ShadowJK has joined #neo900
<enyc> gr8: yes, they very much make the point that the gsm/3g/lte modem is isolated and can't access cpu memory...
PeperPots___ has joined #neo900
antiatom has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<gr8> enyc: uhm, what does that have to do with my question? Sorry I don't understand what you mean :)
XDS2010 has joined #neo900
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
<gr8> paulk-aldrin: how certain are you about that?
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, enyc's answer is not particularely about triangulation, but is related
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, you might want to read for an overview
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, neo900 will be subject to triangulation
<paulk-aldrin> but you should be able to disconnect the modem and antenna reliably
<paulk-aldrin> by design
<bencoh> (as any other gsm device)
<bencoh> but it's still possible to poweroff the modem
sparetire has joined #neo900
<bencoh> and afaik they should implement some way to "monitor" it ("is it really off ?")
<gr8> brb
gr8 has left #neo900 [#neo900]
gr8 has joined #neo900
<R0b0t1> gr8: You can triangulate any radio.
<R0b0t1> gr8: On most phones, the modem is running software you do not control and is at a higher privilege level than the application processor.
<paulk-aldrin> R0b0t1, it's not *always* at a higher privilege level
<R0b0t1> gr8: On the neo900, you can be certain that the radio is off when you turn it off and that it is not tampering with application memory.
<paulk-aldrin> it's actually less common than we think
<paulk-aldrin> it's the case on Qualcomm platforms, that are found on most Android phones, yes
<paulk-aldrin> take any Samsung Exynos device, it's not the case
<R0b0t1> then how is it laid out?
<paulk-aldrin> and those are pretty popular, too
<paulk-aldrin> R0b0t1, modem is simply a peripheral
<paulk-aldrin> often linked to the AP via USB-ish link, period
<R0b0t1> yeah I know how it works
<R0b0t1> oh okay
<paulk-aldrin> it's usually the case when modem and AP are two different chips
<paulk-aldrin> but the case where "modem boots the AP" is specific to Qualcomm and friends
<paulk-aldrin> on Samsung galaxy devices, the AP has to send the modem its system image, for instance
<paulk-aldrin> because the modem cannot access the storage itself
<paulk-aldrin> R0b0t1, also, perhaps you heard about the Samsung Galaxy backdoor
<paulk-aldrin> it's exactly a consequence of that
<gr8> paulk-aldrin: thanks for the link, it explains things well. I still have two questions: 1) which parts of the Neo900 are proprietary hardware or software? 2) "afaik they should implement some way to "monitor" it": what do you mean by "should" here, is that planned, and who is "they" btw?
<paulk-aldrin> thanks! I wrote that hoping it would be useful :)
<bencoh> the guys who work on the neo900 hw
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, "they" would be DocScrutinizer05
<paulk-aldrin> he made a presentation about this
<gr8> is that presentation online?
<paulk-aldrin> and there is a talk about it at CCCamp next month
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, 1) I expect that the board design will be free
<paulk-aldrin> it sure will be documented
<paulk-aldrin> then all the chips hardware design is non-free anyways
<paulk-aldrin> as for software, there is a read-only proprietary bootrom
<paulk-aldrin> that cannot be replaced
<paulk-aldrin> inside the SoC
<paulk-aldrin> then all the rest on the CPU should be free
<paulk-aldrin> modem system will be non-free
<paulk-aldrin> (regarding the system: the GPU doesn't work with free software, but we can do without it)
<paulk-aldrin> then there are firmwares
<paulk-aldrin> Wi-Fi will probably require a loaded firmware
<paulk-aldrin> DSP too
<R0b0t1> It will also likely be possible to have a secure-boot type setup where you can be sure that the initially loaded OS is not compromised.
<gr8> maybe you could make this summary of proprietary parts avaliable somewhere?
<paulk-aldrin> but it's not that useful since the CPU is more effective anyway
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, I will, on the Replicant wiki, when the device is available :)
<gr8> awesome :)
<paulk-aldrin> also, we can expect some non-loaded firmwares on other chips, but it depends
<paulk-aldrin> at this point, it's more or less similar to hardware since you're not expected to change that software anyways
<paulk-aldrin> so if you make an exception on freedom for the (non-free) hardware, you might as well do for those kinds of firmwares
<gr8> hehe I'm still struggling between "want to use as few non-free stuff as possible" and "support projects that go into the right direction"
<paulk-aldrin> I see
<paulk-aldrin> either way, producing hardware *is* the right solution and it requires a lot of support
<gr8> but it depends on what kind of hardware, maybe it would be more effective to start with the cores (OpenRISC etc.) and start producing free hardware network chips etc.?
<R0b0t1> that's been thought of
mvaenskae has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<R0b0t1> a large hurdle is the layout software is not open source
<R0b0t1> so you write a hardware specification in VHDL and then must turn it into a circuit you can fabricate
<R0b0t1> that step is nonfree as well
<gr8> yeah I know, I have used Xilinx tools, they are awful. Funny that this is a software problem again, though
<edwin> as long as all the components that require non-free firmware are properly isolated I don't have a problem with running non-free firmware. It is a lot better than the Intel ME on modern laptops ( that has access to the host memory and runs proprietary, exploitable firmware code.
<gr8> ^ +1
<R0b0t1> yeah
<gr8> good point actually, you can isolation to divide the problem of non-free parts into sub-problems
<gr8> *use isolation
<Wizzup> which is what the neo900 people are doing
<paulk-aldrin> edwin, "as long as all the components that require non-free firmware are properly isolated I don't have a problem with running non-free firmwar"
<paulk-aldrin> looks like your concern is on privacy/security only!
<paulk-aldrin> I still believe in free software
<paulk-aldrin> regardless of privacy/security
<paulk-aldrin> I don't think it's fair that all that stuff is non-free, even if it's harmless
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, and by the way, there are free FPGA synthethis tools now!
<edwin> of course that having a system where everything is free software, including firmware and hardware design would be nice, but I'm happy when there are projects that try to take some practical steps to improving the status quo, even if they don't fully reach that goal
<gr8> paulk-aldrin: wow! that is good news
<edwin> there is also that is interesting to follow on the hardware side
<paulk-aldrin> edwin, right
<paulk-aldrin> I agree with the approach, but let's not forget that freeing those chips is desirable, even if we can somewhat isolate them
<edwin> I think that it is important that such projects are honest about what is isolated, what is free software, what requires blobs, and Neo900 certainly does a good job for that (considering its not even a finished device). Contrast that with the controversial "Purism" laptop that doesn't really improve much on the status quo
<edwin> maybe a future generation of Neo900 can use chips which require less firmware blobs, but unless you build/design the chips yourselves like lowrisc I don't see how that would be possible. Manufacturers don't seem to care much about releasing the source code for their firmwares :(
<R0b0t1> you can reverse the blobs with some effort
<R0b0t1> it's just
<R0b0t1> eh
<R0b0t1> the major hurdle I would think for custom hardware is it just sucks so much
<R0b0t1> who would use it?
<R0b0t1> who would help develop it?
<R0b0t1> :\
<paulk-aldrin> R0b0t1, freeing firmwares is painful, but maybe not as painful as designing our own chips, indeed
<paulk-aldrin> anyways, free hardware desn't exist for chips, so there isn't so much to do anyways
<paulk-aldrin> lowrisc would probably be a "documented" SoC for most people
<paulk-aldrin> because creating silicon chips out of the design is out of reach
<paulk-aldrin> which contrasts with building software, which is dead easy
<paulk-aldrin> (well, not really, but smart people made it dead easy for us)
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
<R0b0t1> if you could make 10k at a time once the cost would be reasonable
<R0b0t1> or even slightly smaller if the buyers didn't mind a slight premium
<R0b0t1> like 1k
antiatom has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05> it's really making me feel hapy to see this amount of expertise in this channel :-) thanks folks!
<DocScrutinizer05> actually there's noting I need to add or clarify
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> just about "document which are blobs": ff
<DocScrutinizer05> and about "radio triangulation" see U-TDOA which applies to *all* transmitters, so there's nothing Neo900 can do, except disable transmitters. You can do this reliably
<DocScrutinizer05> ~u-tdoa
<infobot> somebody said u-tdoa was
<gr8> maybe you could build a Neo900 without any telephone chip at all? :D That would be awesome. I would be like a mini computer or PDA then. I miss the days when there were pure PDAs
<gr8> *it
<gr8> "privacy version" :P
<gr8> it would be a mobile without the phone then ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> of course we *could* buold such thing, alas we can't *sell* it
<edwin> isn't that what a wifi-only tablet is?
<edwin> (pure PDA)
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<gr8> but a tablet is too big to fit in my pocket -,- I already have such a thing
<DocScrutinizer05> but Neo900 is such wifi-only device with an *optional* phone
<paulk-aldrin> gr8, I think there is a Letux device like that
<DocScrutinizer05> yep, that too. And how about Pandorabox for example, or Pyra. OK again quite a bit larger than Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway see dragonbox, recommended
<DocScrutinizer05> a pointer into roughly right direction:
mvaenskae has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<gr8> DocScrutinizer05: I can't find anything about "Pandorabox"
<gr8> I guess you mean OpenPandora?
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<gr8> omg that's awesome xD
<gr8> but it is extremely ugly :D
<gr8> not sure I would like to carry that with me every day...
<DocScrutinizer51> yep
<DocScrutinizer51> paericilarly since pandora is same screen size like N810
<DocScrutinizer05> particularly*
<DocScrutinizer05> that's what results in typing when eyes are half closed yet ;-)
<R0b0t1> so the n900 dts got mainlined, and there is no defconfig?
<DocScrutinizer05> afaik there used to be a rx51 defconfig
<R0b0t1> hmmm
<R0b0t1> yes I see mention of that
<R0b0t1> must've been removed
<DocScrutinizer05> dts is mainlined afaik, though unclear if it's really 100% functional already
<DocScrutinizer05> and whether it's really equivalent regarding device management incl power saving is yet to be confirmed
jonsger has joined #neo900
jonsger has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
ccnnjj has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has quit [Changing host]
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
jonsger has joined #neo900
paulk-aldrin has quit [Quit: Quitte]
cybiko123 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
infobot has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
wpwrak has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
modem has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
modem has joined #neo900
wpwrak has joined #neo900
cybiko123 is now known as Guest57658
Guest57658 has quit [Client Quit]
infobot has joined #neo900
ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
gr8 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
gr8 has joined #neo900
gr8 has quit [Client Quit]
mvaenskae has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
gr8 has joined #neo900
gr8 has quit [Changing host]
gr8 has joined #neo900
Pali has joined #neo900
xes has joined #neo900
jonsger has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
ccnnjj has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
paulk-collins has joined #neo900
ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: it lacks wifi ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, and a mpeg2 player
<wpwrak> naw. but you need wifi to connect to the cloud, where the led settings are stored
<wpwrak> i wonder how to display ads with just one LED, though
<DocScrutinizer05> it's a 'pixel', see datasheet ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> they even claim 30fps
<DocScrutinizer05> actually pretty smart
<DocScrutinizer05> if it works like it should
<wpwrak> it's cute ... but also quite expensive
<DocScrutinizer05> building huge video walls becomes incredibly easy, at least regarding wiring
<DocScrutinizer05> thought as much, so I didn't even check. How much?
<DocScrutinizer05> OUUUCH!
<wpwrak> probably with some hefty adafruit margin, though
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, adafruit is evil
<DocScrutinizer05> for a 4.50 bucks I could build them myself ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> now that looks much better, eh?
<wpwrak> yeah. it suddenly makes sense :)
<DocScrutinizer05> 30 * 30 px $420
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, 40*10 makes for a nice digital clock, I guess
<wpwrak> naw, 3 * 60. seconds, minutes, hours, weekday, month, and a few LEDs for RAID-5
<DocScrutinizer05> 120 bit ?
<wpwrak> 3 * 60 = 60 seconds + 60 minutes + 24 hours + 7 days + 12 month + 21 spare
<DocScrutinizer05> ugh
<DocScrutinizer05> aaah you think analog
<wpwrak> or drop the month and have day of the week plus day of the month
<wpwrak> by the way, is still accurate ? especially the 2.8 mm ?
<DocScrutinizer05> err yep, why not?
<wpwrak> just checking
<DocScrutinizer05> we should recheck the height though
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe we can check the actual height of the B2Bs
<DocScrutinizer05> then add the PCB thickness of UPPER
<DocScrutinizer05> the 2.8 were based on assumed height of modem module plus PCB thickness.
jonsger has joined #neo900
<wpwrak> the DF40C-60DS-0.4V is 1.5 mm
<DocScrutinizer05> possibly the B2B Nik picked are a tiny bit higher
<wpwrak> the DF40C series goes from 1.5 to 4.0 mm, in 0.5 mm increments
<DocScrutinizer05> hmm, that's effecive height on mating?
<wpwrak> yup
<DocScrutinizer05> we need to check what Nik picked
<wpwrak> see above :)
<DocScrutinizer05> he hardly has picked 1.5mm, that wouldn't fit
<DocScrutinizer05> either 2.0 or 2.5
<wpwrak> i guess he didn't _mean_ to pick an 1.5 mm b2b, yet that's what's in the schematics ...
<DocScrutinizer05> :-S
<wpwrak> anyway, we can figure that out later. so for now i just use 2.8 mm.
<DocScrutinizer05> then pragmatic: 2.0 is a tough fir for a 2.2 module, so 2.5
<wpwrak> -> 3.3 mm ?
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> or would we gain a 0.2 from soldering?
<DocScrutinizer05> then 2.0 (+0.2) => 3.0 total
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
norly has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> I guess we could afely assume a 0.2mm gain from "sloppy soldering", eh?
<DocScrutinizer05> worst gase we mill out a 0.2mm deep pool in UPPER ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> case*
<DocScrutinizer05> nah, go for 3.0 for now
* DocScrutinizer05 checks module heights
<wpwrak> total height of the bounding box of the spacer frame then becomes 4.9 mm. good. that still fits in a "thin" block of acrylic
<DocScrutinizer05> PHS8 2.0, PLS8 2.3
<DocScrutinizer05> I wonder...
<DocScrutinizer05> actually 2.5mm B2B?
<wpwrak> i can guess where the 2.8 mm come from ...
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: what do you think?
<wpwrak> may be unavoidable. lest we make such a cut-out
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, for PHS8 the 2.0mm B2B makes sense
<DocScrutinizer05> but since we also want to offer PLS8...
<DocScrutinizer05> so it's 2.5 + 0.8 sandwich then
<DocScrutinizer05> and thus, spacer height
<DocScrutinizer05> good you asked :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> when our spacerframe proto doesn't perfectly match our sandwich proto, so what? then we have a 0.5mm 'gap' between kbd mat and kbd frame
<wpwrak> :) let's shrink the last thin bit of wall a little then. that's 0.9 deep but at most 0.7 mm wide. trimming that is likely to actually improve it ...
<DocScrutinizer05> unless we add a few layers paper under mat
gr8 has left #neo900 [#neo900]
<DocScrutinizer05> go ahead
<DocScrutinizer05> :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> how about live streaming webcam showing the mill operate? ;-)
<wpwrak> naw, got no operational webcam
<DocScrutinizer05> and no really operational uplink I guess :-)
<wpwrak> besides, i just figured out the curved outline shape. a tricky beast
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway don't forget to make lots of snapshots
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, the outline is non-trivial
<wpwrak> it's curved by only about 1 mm on the sides, but still ...
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> at least the long sides *seem* to be straight
<wpwrak> it's cool how fast the outline reloads in freecad. i've been getting used to > 1 minute processing with anelok :)
<wpwrak> yes, they're straight as far a my scans can tell
<DocScrutinizer05> your scans are in line with my eyes ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> would you provide a file format that's also suitable for printing?
<DocScrutinizer05> I most certainly could get some printed protos too, until camp, then
<wpwrak> STL seems to be pretty universally accepted
<DocScrutinizer05> \o/
<wpwrak> most 3D printer will have kittens with that 0.7 mm wall, though ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: should we already consider slots for 2nd SIM?
<DocScrutinizer05> (0.7mm wall) well then I'd print an additional 0.5mm and literally cut the excess away
<wpwrak> once i have the basic model it'll be easy to add rectangular cuts
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<wpwrak> (print more) that may get tricky, too, since you'd then produce an undercut. that per se isn't a problem, but the whole thing may get fragile enough to come apart when you cut it
<DocScrutinizer05> s/cut/mill|file|sand/
<DocScrutinizer05> we'll see
<wpwrak> maybe with a dremel and a sanding cylinder ... there you also get thermal effects to help you. well, they CAN help you. or get in the way :)
<DocScrutinizer05> rather the latter - but I have ice spray for that ;)
<wpwrak> i guess one or two extra hands would then come in handy, too ;)
<DocScrutinizer05> yep, indeed
<wpwrak> i guess most engineers would prefer it if evolution had avoided that upright walk
<DocScrutinizer05> or use spiders instead of apes as proto
<wpwrak> hmm. sounds like an opportunity for symbiosis - one spider on every finger. for SMT, you don't need a lot of force ...
* DocScrutinizer05 muses... "if I were a spider, would I be afraid of myself?"
<wpwrak> can a human be afraid of other humans ?
<DocScrutinizer05> s/afarid/scared/
<DocScrutinizer05> sure, but of $self ?
<wpwrak> do spider brains also have two halves ?
sparetire_ has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> definitely not. so you think they are less susceptible to schizophrenia?
<wpwrak> would seem plausible, no ?
<Humpelstilzchen> 21:03:03 <+wpwrak> i guess most engineers would prefer it if evolution had avoided that upright walk <--as people who had to learn to walk multiple times..
Oksana has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Oksana has joined #neo900
fling has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
ccnnjj has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
<Pali> :D
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
cybiko123 is now known as Guest57919
<paulk-collins> nice one
norly has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jonsger has quit [Quit: jonsger]
ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Pali has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<bencoh> :D
Guest57919 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has quit [Changing host]
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
cybiko123 has quit [Changing host]
cybiko123 has joined #neo900
vakkov has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
arossdotme has joined #neo900
ccnnjj has joined #neo900
ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
paulk-collins has quit [Quit: Quitte]
Oksana has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Oksana has joined #neo900