<Smerdyakov>
karryall, in English, we say "check out" as two separate words.
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<wl>
karryall: thx
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<wl>
hm
<wl>
they used c
<ronwalf>
huh, ml isn't the best abbreviation for mailing list around here :0
* ronwalf
refers to the topic
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<mbh>
in C, your int main() function can return a value. how can you return such a value in ocaml? simply making it the last statement doesn't work
<Riastradh>
exit <value>
<Riastradh>
I think.
<mbh>
ah
<mbh>
thanks
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<pac_>
Hi all
<Smerdyakov>
You're in for it now.
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<TheDracle>
Smerdy, you've given Ashanks some irrational fear of functional languages now.
<Smerdyakov>
To me, this is about as troubling as hearing that I have given that fear to someone lying comatose in the hospital. It's not like he was going to write any programs anyway.
<TheDracle>
Heh.
<TheDracle>
True.
<TheDracle>
Some guy showed him PHP, and he thinks since he can understand a for loop, and an if statement, it means that C++ is a better programming language.
<Riastradh>
People actually care about babbling idiots like this guy?
<TheDracle>
Like whom?
<TheDracle>
Hehe.
<TheDracle>
Ashanks?
<Riastradh>
This Ashanks guy.
<TheDracle>
He's just a kid.
<Smerdyakov>
He's a hoot.
<TheDracle>
True.
<bk_>
what is a 'hoot'
<Smerdyakov>
His father, who owns a pizza shop, says he shouldn't learn Scheme because it's not graphical.
<TheDracle>
I think people are interested in him purely for comedic reasons.
<TheDracle>
Hehe.
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<Riastradh>
Because it's not 'graphical?'
<Smerdyakov>
bk_, someone who is funny to behold.
<bk_>
ah ok
<TheDracle>
I think his father has some idea that Scheme is unable to render dynamic html or something.
<Smerdyakov>
Riastradh, those were the exact words he used.
<TheDracle>
I tried explaining to him that any language that can print to stdout can do cgi.
<Smerdyakov>
He told me about the most advanced program he ever wrote: an e-mail client.
<Smerdyakov>
I think it mostly used prepackaged controls and such, but I asked him what the most complicated part of it was. He said it was the spam filter.
<Riastradh>
WHOAAA! This guy must be ONE MEAN CODER.
<Smerdyakov>
It consisted of many, many lines like this:
<TheDracle>
And how he was going to write a 3d game better than "Golden Eye for the N64" in SQL.
<Smerdyakov>
if "viagra" in text then itsspam
<Smerdyakov>
With a different keyword for each line
<bk_>
lol
<gzl>
who's this "Ashanks"?
<Riastradh>
Some babbling idiot.
<TheDracle>
I don't think he realizes that most of the general population on #C++ aknowledge that C++ is a terrible language.
<gzl>
where?
<TheDracle>
He's not here.
<TheDracle>
We're just speaking of him.
<gzl>
heh, ok
<Smerdyakov>
I don't think he'd ever be in this channel. :)
<monotonom>
Even when I was learning BASIC twenty years ago, I knew better.
<Riastradh>
I vaguely remember him joining #scheme a few times and doing absolutely nothing.
<TheDracle>
I think it's the same problem that people have with Windows Vs. Linux. They don't see the forrest for the trees. Windows is easier to 'use' to begin with because it has this little tiny encapsulated box you can semi-navigate around in. And as long as you never see outside of your box, you'll never know what else exists so it won't bother you.
<monotonom>
I mean I would put all those keywords in a "data" statement, and write a for loop.
<TheDracle>
Lol.
<monotonom>
(I thought that that much should be obvious.)
<TheDracle>
Yeah, I was reading this recent 2600 article.
<TheDracle>
They had this basic program for shutting down potential virus monitoring programs.
<TheDracle>
The guy had like fourty if statements.
<TheDracle>
.. They published this garbage for some reason.
<TheDracle>
Must have been a submit from ashanks or something.
<monotonom>
Oh, that depends on what language is used and what conditions are tested.
<monotonom>
If each condition is like s="hello" then it must certainly be looped.
<TheDracle>
Well, it could have been solved by just placing the strings he was comparing in a list of some type, and iterating over it.
<monotonom>
But if the conditions are rather arbitrary, not much you can simplify without a lazy language.
<monotonom>
Yes absolutely. But the anti-antivirus one in 2600, it may be less regular.
<Smerdyakov>
monotonom, you don't need lazyness to have closures doing the tests.
<TheDracle>
It was just stupid. Heh.
<monotonom>
But writing a million closures in certain languages is more painful that a million if's.
<TheDracle>
I'm not bashing 2600 though, I mean, they do have some decent articles sometimes.
<Smerdyakov>
I generally write off anyone who mentions reading that stuff, TheDracle. :P
<TheDracle>
You mean 2600?
<monotonom>
The proportion of smart people in hackerdom has always been decreasing.
<monotonom>
Before we were born it was full of smart people, no doubt.
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<TheDracle>
Not neccessarily, it seems a lot more political now than a hacker magazine.
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<TheDracle>
They limit the number of articles they do having to do with hacking in general because it's a national publication.
<TheDracle>
Wouldn't want to get in trouble with Ashcroft :)
<Smerdyakov>
That political stuff is just as off-putting for me.
<TheDracle>
Right.
<Smerdyakov>
People whining about things that are quite trivial in the face of the real issues.
<TheDracle>
Well, because it's always the same.
<TheDracle>
Well, regulation of information is pretty important.
<TheDracle>
The fact that just decrypting something is now illegal.
<Smerdyakov>
Important, but secondary to overall social organization
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<TheDracle>
I wouldn't say that :)
<TheDracle>
I mean, animal rights is secondary to overall social organisation.
<Smerdyakov>
I.e., if they think they can protect information freedom while keeping the same power structures in place, they're dreaming.
<TheDracle>
That doesn't mean it isn't important at all.
<TheDracle>
As if, we shouldn't be focusing at all on the small problems because there are larger ones.
<TheDracle>
I think in some ways fighting the battles for the smaller and less important things will eventually lead to the more important ones.
<TheDracle>
I mean, if you don't have freedom of information, you'll never be able to advance society in any direction whatsoever.
<TheDracle>
If you lose that, you lose everything.
<greenrd>
Damn, I had to switch clients at just the wrong moment. Can someone fill me in?
<Smerdyakov>
greenrd, 2600 sux.
<greenrd>
ah
<greenrd>
That's a given.
<monotonom>
I say the tyranny of majority is the biggest obstacle to progress.
<Smerdyakov>
I say lack of education is the biggest obstacle.
<monotonom>
Ah that is an effect, not a cause. The cause is the majority evades education. The effect is it lacks education.
<Smerdyakov>
It's a chicken-and-egg cause. The cause is that communities don't value education, so their children aren't educated properly.
<monotonom>
No. Whatever effort you spend on educating the majority is wasted.
<Smerdyakov>
Not if you do it properly. I'm including educational goals that don't fall within the usual confines of public education.
<greenrd>
Communities are right not to value education very highly, in the current situation.
<monotonom>
I am already assuming that education is done properly. I say that despite that it is a lost cause.
<Smerdyakov>
monotonom, why?
* Smerdyakov
absconds.
<monotonom>
Alright I have been exaggerating. But here is an important factor: most minds tend to be lazy. If you try to invite such minds to do some serious thinking, you naturally run into resistance.
<TheDracle>
I agree with mono.
<greenrd>
Well, that's true.
<monotonom>
The more noble your education goal is, the more you invite them to think, and the more resistance you'll face.
<TheDracle>
It's an effect of the fact that the majority hoards all of the public financial resources into their individual communities.
<monotonom>
But if you know a solution to that, I'd love to know.
<TheDracle>
And 2600 isn't really as bad as you think it is :)
<monotonom>
(I do hope my cynicism turns out to be wrong, afterall :)
<TheDracle>
Technically it was founded by actual hackers, and it has a legitimate history.
<TheDracle>
I particularly like the name :)
<greenrd>
However, most people have arguably had their inquisitive spirits crushed by the education system
<greenrd>
major lag sorry
<TheDracle>
Right, but that tends to be because the teachers and the school didn't have the neccessary resources.
<TheDracle>
And partially because of the way it is implemented.
<greenrd>
No, it's because the education system is too boring. In a word.
<TheDracle>
A lot of children get a 'F' in mathematics and then believe themselfs to be incapable of understanding it.
<TheDracle>
Teachers view their jobs as filtering out the cream of the crop, instead of what their title implies they should view their goal as-- teaching.
<monotonom>
Can you also explain why a lot of code monkeys get an F in CS and still believe they are cool programmers?
<TheDracle>
Heh.
<TheDracle>
Perhaps they are.
<greenrd>
Yes. When perhaps, if it had been taught in a different way, and voluntarily learned, they might have understood it
<Riastradh>
monotonom, because computer science isn't code monkeying.
<TheDracle>
I mean, I failed a lot of courses because I didn't believe I was getting any information out of them.
<TheDracle>
So I simply didn't show up, or I didn't put any effort into the class.
<monotonom>
Yes Riastradh, but the code monkeys themselves believe CS=programming.
<TheDracle>
A teacher's goal should be to teach as much of his subject as possible to as many students as possible.
<greenrd>
Yes, which is why the CS community on orkut has no CS discussions in it.
<greenrd>
A CS Theory community had to be created instead.
<monotonom>
So here it is. In one discipline they are told "F" and they give up. In another discipline they are also told "F" but they say "F you".
<TheDracle>
Heh.
<greenrd>
monotom: The difference is probably they hate maths.
<TheDracle>
They believe they hate math.
<TheDracle>
Because they got an 'F'.
<TheDracle>
So they believe they're unable to understand it.
<monotonom>
So I think there is some other factor than the grade F.
<TheDracle>
Like, the kid is mentally disabled and is simply unable to learn mathematics?
<TheDracle>
That seems like the answer the school system comes up with.
<tautologico>
maybe they don't see any motivation to learn maths
<TheDracle>
If you fail math, you simply retake the same method of teaching it over and over again.
<tautologico>
but with computers, instead, they can learn how to do 'cool' stuff
<TheDracle>
Like doing the same idiotic thing again is somehow going to help.
<TheDracle>
That's another problem, they aren't motivated because mathematics isn't taught by application.
<TheDracle>
Which is why you get so much, "Where am I going to ever use Calculus or Algebra?"
<monotonom>
I have always been thinking that something of the sort of curry-howard can be used to mathematics's advantage. Suppose you teach a math course and ask students to write proofs. Don't ask them to write proofs; translate the problem into one in programming and assign that.
<TheDracle>
Right, apply it in some manner.
<TheDracle>
To something real.
<tautologico>
it doesn't need to be about programming, either
<TheDracle>
Just about anything.,
<TheDracle>
I mean, your brain's internal garbage collector will quickly clear up any information it deems to be worthless.
<tautologico>
kids here are taught about complex numbers in school... I think they are right when they think 'what the hell is a complex number and why should I care about them?'... without context or motivation, it gets difficult
<TheDracle>
Things it holds on to are things that are integrated with how you view the world and how you interact with it.
<monotonom>
No, the majority mind actually holds on to quite some garbage, my experience with humans shows.
<TheDracle>
Right, they go into teaching the mechanics of complex numbers before they ever explain what the hell their utility is.
<tautologico>
yes, and this is bad teaching
<TheDracle>
They're just teaching to their goal of having you produce a piece of paper that can demonstrait that you can reproduce these mechanics.
<tautologico>
has anyone read 'The Math Gene' by Keith Devlin ?
<Riastradh>
What we need is better training for teachers.
<TheDracle>
The kids understand mathematics as much as maple understands mathematics.
<TheDracle>
Or just different structures for class rooms.
<greenrd>
Wasn't there a "new math" movement that was ridiculed for trying to teach set theory to youngsters?
<TheDracle>
I mean, sitting in a desk for six hours a day is insane.
<greenrd>
Of course, changing the topic without changing the institution is not going to help much.
<TheDracle>
I mean, it's just completely unnatural. How do they expect people to learn in such a foreign environment.
<tautologico>
greenrd, yes... it failed because kids didn't even learn basic math skills well, with all the emphasis on modern abstract math
<greenrd>
I remember studying the set theory stuff in textbooks and my teachers would say "Oh we don't teach that stuff any more. Ignore it!"
<monotonom>
The movement failed because the teachers didn't understand abstractions.
<Riastradh>
TheDracle, it requires interesting & enthusiastic teachers.
<tautologico>
I studied some set theory in school
<TheDracle>
Right.
<TheDracle>
Riastradh: And that usually requires money, and respect.
<Riastradh>
I don't think that's too much to ask, but, in the current sample space, such teachers are very rare.
<TheDracle>
I mean, a lot of teachers just view it as any other job, they're just tending children.
<tautologico>
yes, and teachers are paid little... so how can we expect they do their work very well ? would anyone here accept to work as a school teacher ?
<TheDracle>
Right.
<TheDracle>
In schools where they're paid better, in richer communities, the schools tend to be a lot better.
<Riastradh>
I'd accept to work as a teacher, but I'm abnormal.
<TheDracle>
And the teachers tend to be a lot more enthusiastic.
<tautologico>
and even if you are a dedicated teacher, depending on where you work, the whole system will try to bring you down
<TheDracle>
They first need to stop funding schools only from local communities, and fund it on a federal level.
<TheDracle>
Because primarily minority inhabited slums and such tend to have a very small tax base, and tend to be unable to support their schools.
<TheDracle>
Not to mention they have the added burden of having to teach a large number of students English etc..
<Riastradh>
And I once had a truly amazing teacher who gained the utmost respect of all of his students and made even the most dull subjects in basic Algebra 1 interesting. (This was a _LONG_ time ago.)
<TheDracle>
Heh, I had a Calculus teacher like that.
<Riastradh>
(that was a continuation of the sentence ending with '...but I'm abnormal')
<TheDracle>
The only decent teacher I really had was my Calculus teacher.
<tautologico>
I have had very good teachers, but they were the minority
<TheDracle>
He built this vaccum powered hovering device, and we sat there and calculated the acceleration and the velocity and such of it.
<TheDracle>
And then we built three dimensional figures out of foam after calculating the dimensions of each disk.
<TheDracle>
It was cool.
<TheDracle>
Yeah, way in the minority.
<Riastradh>
From that algebra 1 teacher I learned of an interesting movie, _Stand and Deliver_.
<Riastradh>
Far too much in the minority. Yet I don't think it would be too far-fetched to find more people willing to teach like that.
<TheDracle>
They actually got a whole bunch of funding for this new technology wing to teach students about robotics, and aerodynamics, and electronics through example.
<TheDracle>
I mean, they had all of these instruments they provided.
<TheDracle>
So, I took this class, and I was all excited because we had this wind tunnel, and a robotic programable arm.
<TheDracle>
And, the teacher litteraly shoved them all into the back of the classroom.
<TheDracle>
And sat around up front playing on her computer all day.
<Riastradh>
Ugh.
<TheDracle>
Like, had us do book assignments and crap.
<TheDracle>
I could hardly believe it.
<greenrd>
That calls for a sacking.
<TheDracle>
Lol.
<greenrd>
I had an incompetent teacher once. He always read out the textbook and he couldn't answer any questions we asked.
<TheDracle>
Lol.
<TheDracle>
Most of mine were like that.
<Riastradh>
Just once? Lucky.
<TheDracle>
I mean, I grew up in a trailor in a primarily minority inhabited community.
<greenrd>
He had taken one course in computing at college where he did business administration.
<greenrd>
Oh, this was a supposedly prestigious English grammar school
<TheDracle>
Heh.
<greenrd>
I think he lied on his interview or something
<TheDracle>
I was in this ELP program all through elementry and Junior High.
<TheDracle>
So, I got to transfer to a well-funded school in the rich part of Salt Lake.
<greenrd>
So anyway, I goes up to him at the end of one class, after everyone has left, and I tell him I think he is not fit to be a teacher and I am going to make a complaint.
<TheDracle>
I mean, if I had stayed in the regular school system I probably wouldn't have known what I was missing out on.
<greenrd>
He got very worried and asked me not to do that.
<TheDracle>
Got an 'F' eh?
<greenrd>
No, the exams were externally marked.
<TheDracle>
.. Wow. What a concept.
<greenrd>
This was at A level (age 16-18)
<TheDracle>
Even the professors here at the University aren't up to notch on a lot of the topics their teaching.
<greenrd>
But I did complain to his boss, and so did some other students, but the school refused to sack him for a long time because they wanted to avoid embarassment.
<Riastradh>
What university would that be, TheDracle?
<TheDracle>
The University of Utah.
<Riastradh>
greenrd, WTF?
<Riastradh>
It's more embarrassing to sack a terrible teacher than to _have_ one??!
<greenrd>
Yup.
<Riastradh>
What school would this be, greenrd?
<TheDracle>
There is this guy I work with who is teaching a course on computer aided data aquisition to physics students.
<TheDracle>
And he's litteraly learning about it as he teaches it.
<greenrd>
Well, that's my speculation as to why. They gave me some bullshit ... "he is on a contract, there's nothing we can do".
<Riastradh>
TheDracle, is he just spouting the textbook material as he reads it himself, or is he actually learning it and teaching what he's learning?
<TheDracle>
Riastradh: A little of both.
<greenrd>
It was Maidstone Grammar School in Knet
<greenrd>
er, Kent
<Riastradh>
Where is Kent?
<TheDracle>
Riastradh: I mean, he's putting an effort into it, but I'm sure there are other people in similar positions who don't.
<Riastradh>
TheDracle, right, and there's the difference.
<TheDracle>
Riastradh: It would be much better if the University actually chose someone who was an expert in that particular subject.
<greenrd>
South East of England. It's the county that is connected to France via the Channel Tunnel.
<TheDracle>
greenrd: At least it wasn't in the United States :)
<Riastradh>
TheDracle, how devoted a teacher is this guy?
<TheDracle>
I mean, I think it's maybe in the best interests of politicians to keep people reasonably ignorant. I can't see any other way propeganda can be so effective here.
<TheDracle>
Riastradh: Not much at all, he's more interested in physics than teaching.
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<Riastradh>
Why is he teaching, then?
<TheDracle>
The University requires it if you ever want to get tenure track.
<Riastradh>
That's terrible.
<TheDracle>
And, that's technically why the University exists :)
<TheDracle>
hehe.
<TheDracle>
Is to teach.
<Riastradh>
Well...
<Riastradh>
_Technically_.
<TheDracle>
I mean, these projects and such really are all on the side.
<TheDracle>
It seems like the professors here have this idea that they need to throw as many hoops at the students as possible, and those who come out on the other end will be the best.
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<Riastradh>
My terrific algebra 1 teacher, to teach, had actually left his high-paying job at IBM where he was doing high-tech research, occasionally involving nuclear submarines.