irc.freenode.net changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08 "Bastille Day" Release available ! -- Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~aschmitt/cwn , A tutorial: http://merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/ , A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem, Mailing List (best ml ever for any computer language): http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list
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<snh1> Anyone alive?
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<mflux> maybe
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<grirgz> hi
<Lemmih> Hey
<grirgz> why ocamlopt use -I to search *.cmo files, but not *.cmx ?
<grirgz> very strange
<grirgz> i dont understand to handle this in my makefile
<grirgz> s/to/how to/
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<malune> hey people, can ocaml be used for games programming?
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<mellum> malune: what would be a reason that a programming language couldn't be used for games programming?
<mflux> mellum, performance.
<mflux> but that's not a problem with ocaml?
<mflux> of course, if performance isn't a problem, then I can't really see what limits programming languages set for programming games
<malune> well if the language doesn't have any libs for graphics manipulation for example
<mflux> ..and of course in itself performance isn't a feature of a language, but the implementation..
<mflux> malune, programming languages that can't be linked with native system libraries are really rare
<malune> hehe, i'm new to all this
<malune> i just don't know whether i should start with O'Caml
<mflux> and as such wouldn't really be useful for other 'real worl' purposes anyway
<malune> i was looking at the language shootout and the speed:lines of code ratio was really good ( i was looking for a language to start on )
<malune> would you guys reccomend i started with ocaml if i'm going to want to be programming games?
<mflux> so you don't have background in other languages?
<malune> well, i know C/C++
<malune> to some extent
<malune> and some assembly
<malune> and some python
<mflux> perhaps you should try out ocaml to judge that for yourself
<mflux> how about any functional languages?
<malune> i've never tried any functional languages
<malune> are they very different?
<malune> i mean it just looked good to me because of the interpreter, and then being able to compile
<mflux> the approach for writing algorithms is different
<malune> but everything is still achievable in O'Caml? does it still have the same power as C/C++? like for memory manipulation for example
<mflux> there are no pointers nor any other direct memory interface
<mflux> well, Bigarray has something like that
<mflux> but I suppose they are mainly used for interfacing with system libraries (such as SDL)
<malune> has anyone ever created a game in O'Caml?
<malune> a full fledged 3D game i mean
<mflux> no idea
<mflux> there are opengl bindings for ocaml ;)
<mflux> there is some discussion on the matter with keywords ocaml game
<malune> so, i'm assuming you know some C and some O'Caml
<malune> to you, do you think O'Caml is as suited to games?
<mflux> I know plenty C, C++, perl, elisp
<mflux> yes.
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<malune> what's your reasoning?
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<mflux> well, I view ocaml as a language that suggests the programmer to write code that works ;)
<mflux> static typing plays a great part in this
<mflux> as does the method of writing functions in divide and conquer -methodology
<malune> so do you now program mostly in O'Caml or do you prefer any other language(s)?
<mflux> at work I write C, at home I've only toyed with ocaml, so I'm nowhere near as experienced with the language as other folks here may be
<mflux> but I do prefer ocaml for certain kinds of programs
<malune> interesting
<malune> but for games you think it's as good as c?
<malune> if not better
<mflux> well what features in C do you think makes it suitable for games?
<malune> i like the object oriented aspect of C++, and the fact that it's easy to interface with libraries such as OpenGL
<mflux> you will find the oo-features in ocaml somewhat different from the ones in c++
<malune> by static typing, do you mean all values are constants?
<mflux> and infact you may find that in some cases things that would be with c++ written with objects are in ocaml written with for example closures
<mflux> no
<mflux> I mean if you write a float instead of an integer in code, it will fail compile time
<mflux> which can be extended to lists and other data structures
<malune> oh right, so there's no typecasting
<mflux> c++ is also statically typed, except when it's not ;)
<mflux> anyway, the difference that makes static typing in ocaml convenient is the fact that the types are induced from in what context you use the variables in, that is, it doesn't spelling out the types for the compiler all the time
<malune> oh right
<malune> so less space for erroneous code
<mflux> ..although it might also lead to somewhat unclear error messages too ;)
<mflux> but most of the time I consider that a great plus
<malune> hmm i'm looking at the site, the syntax looks strange
<malune> lol
<malune> is it worth my while learning O'Caml for games programming or should i just stick with what i know, C++?
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<mflux> if you don't know a functional language, it's definitely worth your time learning one, and if one is to be learned I view ocaml as one of the better options
<mflux> it might change the way you write c++ too ;)
<malune> ok, well i'll get started and stop pestering you then :)
<malune> thanks for your help :)
<mflux> happy coding. btw, ocaml.org is obsolete, caml.infria.fr is the updated site
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<AsylumGovernor> hi everybody
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<jyrix> uh.. hi?
<jyrix> anyone?
<Smerdyakov> HI!
<jyrix> hi!
<jyrix> so uh..
<jyrix> what's ocaml
<Smerdyakov> OCaml is a programming language.
<jyrix> yeah
<jyrix> i know
<Smerdyakov> Then why did you ask?
<jyrix> well, i was just loooking for a nice language
<jyrix> is oo?
<jyrix> seems to functional + something else
<Smerdyakov> OCaml has some OO constructs. Most OCaml programmers rarely use these constructs, however.
<jyrix> some?
<Smerdyakov> What?
<jyrix> how do you actually program without oo?
<jyrix> never tried lol
<jyrix> i do oo even in c
<Smerdyakov> Well, try reading a book like The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs.
<jyrix> hmm.. i sounds like a really big book
<jyrix> it
<jyrix> i was looking for a nice oo language with mi
<jyrix> and maybe a garbage collector
<Smerdyakov> Unlearning bad habits that come from using C is a big job, in need of a big book. ;)
<jyrix> what kindof "bad habits" ? :|
<Smerdyakov> Read the book and see.
<Smerdyakov> What is "with mi"?
<jyrix> multiple inheritance
<jyrix> everythin seems to single these days
<jyrix> c# java d
<jyrix> ruby
<Smerdyakov> OCaml has multiple inheritance with a simple textual inclusion semantics.
<jyrix> okay
<Smerdyakov> Subtyping is done based solely on compatibility of method signatures -- there is no declared "class hierarchy."
<jyrix> that sounds like copy-paste
<jyrix> and that sounds like mixins
<Smerdyakov> At any rate, OO is rarely useful.
<Smerdyakov> You'd do better to give standard functional programming a try before basing a decision on OO features.
<Smerdyakov> And now I have to go. I'm sure someone else will talk at you if you wait around. :)
<jyrix> what exactly is a functional programming language
<mflux> in a nutshell: it's surprising (to an imperative language programmer) how much you can achieve without ever overwriting a value ;)
<jyrix> its a little difficult to "think in ocaml"
<jyrix> when i program in c++ i know exactly what's going on
<jyrix> but ocaml is much more abstract
<Riastradh> When you 'think in OCaml,' it's closer to _what_ you want to happen, not the low-level details of _how_ you want something to happen, as it is in C++.
<jyrix> well that's difficult
<Riastradh> You don't know what you want to do?
<Riastradh> How can you know _how_ you want to do something if you don't even know what that something is?
<mflux> I don't think ocaml actually does so much things 'behind your back', except garbage collection, with which you can actually do some interfacing with
<mflux> ..although perhaps I should look at the generated assembly before making such a broad statement ;)
<jyrix> well for example programming in java makes me feel like im in tiny metal box and cant breathe
<jyrix> and i cant really think in that tiny box
<jyrix> so.. how much control does ocaml give me?
<Riastradh> Enough.
<mflux> it doesn't have pointers or raw memory access if that's what you're looking for.
<jyrix> well i heard about that
<jyrix> and its really hard to think about that
<jyrix> lol
<Riastradh> jyrix, that's because your brain was prematurely set upon low-level details that are completely irrelevant to most applications.
<jyrix> and what's with the ===>
<Riastradh> And that is why Smerdyakov suggested that you read SICP.
<jyrix> me likes assembler lol
<jyrix> is there networking library ocaml
<jyrix> something thats not very high-level
<Riastradh> Low-level languages are for implementing low-level things. If your _task_ is to move some memory about, use a low-level language, or an assembly language. If your task does not have anything to do with moving memory, and merely _consequentially_ moves memory, you should not have to manually move memory about.
<Riastradh> Why do you want something that's not very high-level?
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<mflux> ocaml networking library is somewhat mapped to the defacto standard bsd sockets api
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<jyrix_> okay i'm back
<jyrix_> one more question
<jyrix_> how the memory usage
<Riastradh> What was the last thing you saw me say, and the last thing you said?
<jyrix_> typos
<Riastradh> ...?
<jyrix_> yes that's what i was talking
<jyrix_> about typos
<Riastradh> The last thing I saw you say was:
<Riastradh> 17:27 < jyrix> something thats not very high-level
<jyrix_> noo
<jyrix_> typos
<jyrix_> definately typos
<jyrix_> anyway what about the memory usage
<jyrix_> lotsof gc-d languages seem to use lots
<Riastradh> What about it?
<jyrix_> its compiled right
<jyrix_> no jits
<jyrix_> or "engines"
<mflux> it can be compiled to bytecode or native binary
<Riastradh> OCaml may be compiled to either its own byte code, which is interpreted, or to native code on some platforms.
<mflux> a jit for ocaml exists too, I'm not sure about the state of that project though
<jyrix_> if its compiled to native why's there a need for a jit?
<mellum> It's more buzzword-compliant.
<jyrix_> :D
<mflux> well, the byte code binaries are smaller and cross platform
<mflux> no idea really ;)
<jyrix_> okay then
<Riastradh> It would probably be more informative to investigate that project's stated rationale.
<jyrix_> i'll go sleep and try to read that site again
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<malune> hey people, i have a few questions about ocaml, can anyone help?
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<mflux> perhaps
<mflux> oh, he must've left some time ago.. /ignore is a bliss ;)
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<gl> pnou !
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