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<Msandin>
Oh, my thingy now produces parsers as well as printers, oh the joy=)
<nlv11757__>
:) should have programmed Haskell where you get them almost for free ;)
<Msandin>
Well, when I'm done with this I _will_ get them for free for any datatype in the future:)
<Msandin>
Tywith can now do essentially what "deriving read" does:)
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* Msandin
wonders if he got a response, ah well:-)
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<Snark>
Msandin: you didn't, at least not on the channel
<Msandin>
Snark: Thanks
<Snark>
np
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<nlv11757__>
Msandin, to mimic deriving is always being a step behind with respect to Haskell :P
<Msandin>
Hum? I just think deriving is useful, so I decided it would be neat to have in OCaml as well:)
<nlv11757__>
my point is that Haskell is just full of neat things :D
<mflux>
except performance ;)
<mflux>
which is sort of odd; one would expect there could be all kinds of neat optimizations in a pure functional language
<Msandin>
The format module is... makeing me quesy or something, I want to: get formated output if a particular width in a string, and it's not obvious how to do it
<Msandin>
mflux: it does do all sort of neat things, but the problem is hard, and they're still working on it=)
<nlv11757__>
there is nothing wrong with haskell performance
<nlv11757__>
thats an old fashioned argument
<mflux>
because machines are fast enough?
<nlv11757__>
because compilers are smarter
<nlv11757__>
allowing people to express naturally, but still obtain performance
<Msandin>
nlv: well, at times there are problems for sure, the main problem isn't performance per se, but rather predictability of performance, both in time and space, reasoning about lazy languages can be hairy...
<mflux>
well, there are plenty of whitepapers on haskell performance, and increasing it.. one in particular, about fast array access, said that the author expected only 100-fold performance decrease in the haskell-version compared to the c-version, but got a 10-fold :P
<mflux>
of course, it's only one example, and sometimes 10x performance might not matter
<mflux>
but sometimes it does, a lot
* Msandin
mainly wishes OCaml had type classes, haskell syntax, better support for laziness, and a decent collection of HOFs like the Haskell prelude
<nlv11757__>
tons of bedtimestories showing the other way around
<nlv11757__>
doesnt mean anything
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<mflux>
so there must be plenty of evidence the other way round then..
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<mflux>
I haven't really seen anyone (any haskeller that is) to claim that haskell has high performance, only that most often the performance isn't #1, but the code is
<mflux>
of course, there is a point
<mflux>
but you say that not only haskell is powerfull in expression, it is also excellent in performance?
<nlv11757__>
no
<mflux>
it also seems to be a common view that high-performing haskell code doesn't anymore look that elegant
<nlv11757__>
im not saying anything
<nlv11757__>
im saying people are using C and other garbage too often by using performance as an excuse where it is totally unnecessary
<mflux>
true
<Msandin>
no argument there
<mflux>
but ocaml isn't really garbage, and its performance is maybe between the mentioned languages
<mflux>
so ocaml could be a lot neater, but it's a tradeoff - but no longer on security
<mflux>
unless you use String.unsafe_get ;)
<Herrchen>
why does one want type classes if functors are available?
<nlv11757__>
ocaml syntax realllllly annoys me
<Msandin>
But it is true that C has a fairly simple performance model, OCaml's is slightly hairier, but Haskell, relying on clever compilers, takes that "prize" by a margin...
<Herrchen>
does one really need more than one concept for doing the same stuff?
<mellum>
Herrchen: ask the Perl people :)
<mflux>
I would guess the greatest advantage is in syntax
<mflux>
let a, b, c = 1, 2l, 3L
<nlv11757__>
sugar is good once and a while
<mflux>
now dealing with those numbers is a b*tch :)
<vincenz>
especially given that it can clean up your match statements as you define new datatypes
<mflux>
btw, there's an 'open in'-syntax extension in humps, it can be useful at times
<mflux>
(too bad tuareg-mode doesn't bay ball with it)
<mflux>
s/bay/play/
<Msandin>
Herrchen: Type classes are much more heavy weight in usage than type classes, and in practise, that matters, I can't do Tywith (deriving for Ocaml) without modules turning into functors behind peoples backs and all kinds of nastiness, it could work, but nobody would ever use it..
<Msandin>
first type classes=functors, obviously
<Herrchen>
there are always pros and cons, but I personally don't think it is worth the effort to include many concepts for doing the same stuff - just my personal opinion ...
<Herrchen>
I never understood, why one wants objects in caml (or ml in general) anyway - having closures is enough for me -- but I think this all belongs to "matter of taste" -- I simply would apprieciate a very simplistic language
<Msandin>
Herr: I agree, and so I should revise my statement slightly: I miss type classes and I'd like a OCaml-like language which includes them... and by extension probably not functors...
<Herrchen>
ah ok -- I would prefer type classes, too :)
<Msandin>
Well then:)
<Herrchen>
bbl
<nlv11757__>
yeah, i guess polymorphic lambda calculus is all one needs :P
<nlv11757__>
you should read Types and Programming Languages from Pierce, it's fun to see that he builds up all these features with a really simple language
<Msandin>
Knowing wherefrom it all comes is interesting and useful=)
<Msandin>
Bah, I have designed stream parser combinators just for this, doesn't seem like a great idea to be honest...:/
<nlv11757__>
:) what doesnt? stream parser in general? :P
<Msandin>
To design a stream parser library for this purpose:-)
<Msandin>
especially as the stream patterns of camlp4 would probably have been a greater idea...
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<vincenz>
oo has it's uses
<det>
does not!
<vincenz>
you're right!
<vincenz>
I see the errors in my ways now
* vincenz
snicker
<det>
So, what prompted that rediculous statement?
<vincenz>
get one ... give one
<det>
I dont understand
<vincenz>
does not!
<vincenz>
and then I replied
<det>
ahh
<det>
I meant the original statement :)
<vincenz>
oh
<vincenz>
discussion earlier in history
<det>
What do you find usefull about "OO" (note, a very ill defined term)
<vincenz>
14:09 < Herrchen> I never understood, why one wants objects in caml
<vincenz>
I find them useful, a combination of oo and functors allows me to do mixin-style coding
<det>
Hrmm, do you have an example?
<vincenz>
just a sec
<vincenz>
ScopesMachine.Mixin(
<vincenz>
BlocksMachine.Mixin(
<vincenz>
AccessesMachine.Mixin(
<vincenz>
StateMachine.Machine))))
<vincenz>
module Machine = to that
<vincenz>
new Machine.machine
<vincenz>
I can easily leave something out by leaving out a layer
<Smerdyakov>
That shows why functors are useful, not why OO is useful.
<vincenz>
I rewrote it all to use modules only
<vincenz>
it's slightly uglier
<Smerdyakov>
That doesn't mean that all modules based solutions are uglier.
<det>
vincenz, Wouldn't an OO solution use inheritence instead of functor application?
<vincenz>
I use inheritance inside
<vincenz>
compare it to templates if you will
<vincenz>
used in this manner
<vincenz>
template <class S>
<vincenz>
class X : public S {..};
<vincenz>
module Mixin = functor(Super : StateMachine.Mixin ) -> struct class machine = object inherit Super.machine as super
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