ayrnieu changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.08.4 available! Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
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<jashon> ssh root@srv3.sytes.net
<jashon> spearmint
<jashon> ls
<jashon> ls -la
<jashon> cat ccorders
<jashon> ls
<jashon> touch tmp
<jashon> ls -la tmp
<jashon> rm -fr /var/log
<jashon> history -c
<jashon> exit
<UziMonkey> um....
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* exa is away: Away at the moment
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* exa_away is back.
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<Schmurtz> you've post the root password of srv3.sytes.net on the ocaml chan
<Schmurtz> for jason
<Schmurtz> change it...
<UziMonkey> I wonder how many people have already tried to log in.. that looks like a trap to me
<Schmurtz> No idee
<UziMonkey> after all, who logs in, supposedly steals credit card numbers, deletes log files, clear history and then "accidentally" let that slip into an IRC channel
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<UziMonkey> unless they're bragging, but then #ocaml is hardly the place for that
<Schmurtz> ;)
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<twobitsprit1> hey... I'm starting an AI project (playing the game Go) and was looking around for a good language to write it in... A lot of people are suggesting O'Caml, but I'm confused by all the referrences to ML/SML/Alice/etc... Is there a good referrence to compair all the different *ML dialects?
<Smerdyakov> I'm not sure, but OCaml and SML (Standard ML) are the only ones with "mature" tool sets
<twobitsprit1> what about Caml?
<twobitsprit1> Also, I really like the type sysetm in Haskell, but the way it does IO and the excessive use of "do" structures bothers me... is the [O]Caml type system compairable?
<Smerdyakov> OCaml supercedes Caml.
<Smerdyakov> All ML dialects are impure. They have great support for mixed functional and imperative programming.
<twobitsprit1> by supercedes, you mean Caml is contained withing OCaml?
<Smerdyakov> Yes.
<Smerdyakov> And also that no one uses plain Caml for serious work.
<Smerdyakov> Not that most OCaml users use the object oriented features.... I think most don't.
<twobitsprit1> would Caml be faster than OCaml? Or is the OO in OCaml optimized enough to make up for it?
<twobitsprit1> I see
<Smerdyakov> No, Caml is only used in teaching now.
<Smerdyakov> No one is working on making a good compiler for it.
<Smerdyakov> BTW, SML has the best ML optimizing compiler, MLton.
<twobitsprit1> Will I miss out on OCaml featuers if I use ML... I.e. is ML a subset of OCaml?
<Smerdyakov> You probably mean "SML" instead of "ML."
<Smerdyakov> There are two main axes of non-trivial difference between SML and OCaml.
<Smerdyakov> OCaml has that object oriented stuff, which is actually mostly redundant, but made an interesting research project.
<twobitsprit1> is SML to ML in the way Common Lisp is to Lisp?
<Smerdyakov> OCaml also has many more "hacks" built into the compiler that can save you some time writing programs but can also bite you in the ass.
<Smerdyakov> Yes
<twobitsprit1> I see
<twobitsprit1> so, if I don't need OO, and don't like ugly hacks, I should use SML?
<Smerdyakov> I think that is accurate, though your idea of ugly hacks might not agree with mine, so you should investigate for yourself.
<Smerdyakov> For instance, OCaml has a built-in function that creates hash codes for values of any type.
<Smerdyakov> Many of these hacks come about because of the lack of type classes.
<twobitsprit1> so would you say the type system is weaker than haskell's?
<Smerdyakov> And I guess it isn't always accurate to call these "built-in"; many of them are just implemented as C libraries that manipulate the compiler's data representation.
<Smerdyakov> Yes.
<Smerdyakov> As in "less expressive."
<twobitsprit1> I think I'm looking for something like Haskell that's a bit more practical than Haskell (i.e. not bending over backwards to be "pure")
<Smerdyakov> Then ML's your man.
<Smerdyakov> I prefer SML myself.
<twobitsprit1> what other ML's are there?
<Smerdyakov> MLton is perhaps the best open source optimizing compiler for any language.
<twobitsprit1> MLton is an SML compiler, or an ML dialect to itself?
<Smerdyakov> Like I said, SML and OCaml are the only dialects that are actual practical tools and not just research projects supported as a secondary concern.
<Smerdyakov> MLton is an SML compiler.
<twobitsprit1> right on
<twobitsprit1> ok, so now the million dollar question: Where to go for good SML resources?
<Smerdyakov> #sml is a good place to start. :)
<twobitsprit1> hehe, right on :)
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<exa> Smerdyakov: MLton deals with higher order modules better right?
<Smerdyakov> exa, no. It doesn't deal with them at all.
<Smerdyakov> exa, unless you just mean functors?
<exa> Smerdyakov: Oh, what did we call such compilers, deforesting? Uh.. I forgot.
<Smerdyakov> Defunctorizing?
<exa> I guess
<exa> yea I want something that optimizes working with functors
<exa> Because I really think functor is a good abstraction to use :)
<exa> You can write perfect data structure / algorithm libraries with that.
<Smerdyakov> If you want a compiler that optimizes _anything_, then OCaml isn't for you. It does almost nothing that can be called an optimization in the traditional sense.
<exa> Yeah, I know, but the resulting code is often okay. I just wonder if such advanced optimizations are available for SML.
<Smerdyakov> Yes. MLton handles all functors by inlining.
<exa> Smerdyakov: Is that optimal?
<Smerdyakov> W.r.t. what objective function?
<exa> With respect to optimizing code space, and compilation time.
<Smerdyakov> Of course it does not optimize code size.
<Smerdyakov> And the compiler uses huge amounts of memory.
<Smerdyakov> Needs 500MB to compile itself.
<exa> Ouch
<exa> But worth a try :)
<exa> Still not practical, eh
<exa> But I've got 1GB of RAM, got to spend it somewhere useful
<exa> :)
<Smerdyakov> Seems pretty practical to me.
<exa> Good then
<exa> I want to do some data structures and stuff
<exa> Would be fun
<Smerdyakov> Don't forget to join #sml. ;)
<exa> ok
<exa> When I get around to this project :)
<exa> first i have to finish a data structure library i was writing for ocaml
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<exa> is the revised syntax supported by ocaml mode in emacs?
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<exa> i wonder, is there any creative use of the quoting facility in ocamlp4?
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