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<starbuck>
moo
<starbuck>
anybody wanna chat
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<starbuck>
hi
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<Korollary_>
has anyone here ever played with F# ?
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<vdrab>
hello #ocamlers. I have a bit of a question: how similar are "core functional Haskell" and core functional Ocaml? The reason I ask is that I have an algorithm written in haskell and I am curious whether it can be translated rather painlessly to Ocaml... the program doesn't use any of haskell's exotic features, just a bunch of functions doing things to lists and algebraic data types...
<vdrab>
If it would be straightforward to translate the haskell algorithm into an ocaml one, I would like to see what kind of speed-up I get from that...
<Korollary_>
vdrab: does it use typeclasses ?
<vdrab>
not any of the tricky ones.... it overloads Show for some pretty printing, but that's about it
<Korollary_>
I dont know ocaml that well, but it should be straightforward. I am not sure if you would get any speedup, though.
<vdrab>
it's not all that complicated I think, it's just that optimizing it for performance is going to be ugly ... so I'm checking what my options are first...
<vdrab>
There wouldn't be some sort of "Ocaml for Haskell programmers" tutorial around, would there ...? :-)
<Korollary_>
I dont think you need any
<vdrab>
you think it's just getting used to the syntax then? that would be awesome, but I doubt it's going to be that simple.
<Korollary_>
vdrab: there's something called the revised syntax, but I ended up sticking with the original anyway.
<vdrab>
working around the lack of list comprehensions comes to mind, for one thing.
<vdrab>
what's the revised syntax?
<Korollary_>
it's accomplished by the caml preprocessor
<vdrab>
the compiler supports two kinds of syntax?
<Korollary_>
for pure code, I (imho) don't expect ocaml to outperform haskell considerably. It's the imperative code that seems to make ocaml fast. (imho, again)
<vdrab>
oh really? that would sort of defeat the purpose then. hmm
<vdrab>
well, thanks for the input.
<Korollary_>
can the algorithm work on arrays in a more efficient manner ?
<vdrab>
maybe. it would mean a substantial rewrite though.
<Korollary_>
in that case, haskell may be not as slow as you think
<Korollary_>
I should write some toy benchmarks comparing STL lists in C++ to haskell
<vdrab>
it's not slow by normal programming language standards... I just need it to be faster. hehe
<Korollary_>
have you profiled it ?
<vdrab>
yes
<Korollary_>
maybe there's an existing benchmark at language shootout site
<vdrab>
there are a couple of functions that do the heavy lifting, so that's where it takes the hit, as expected.
<Korollary_>
hmm
<vdrab>
It's a bit like graph algorithms, bad complexity
<vdrab>
simple program, bad scaling with data
<vdrab>
so, being able to shave some milliseconds of those few crucial functions may be worthwile if they get called millions of times
<Korollary_>
maybe you could outsource those functions to the C domain
<vdrab>
also, it feels as if this is one of those problem domains where haskell's laziness is not really helping you... not sure though
<vdrab>
yes. that's another option I am considering... it's just that translating to ocaml seems way more fun than rewriting in C
<Korollary_>
if you suspect laziness, then iirc there are some tricks to force strictness
<vdrab>
the laziness is not the big culprit, really... I get decent performance as it is. I'm just curious as to how much better it may get
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<Smerdyakov>
Why OCaml and not SML?
<vdrab>
Smerdyakov: no reason really... well, visibility maybe.
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<Smerdyakov>
There are no optimzing OCaml compilers, while SML has MLton, which is a real powerhouse in that respect.
<vdrab>
ocaml doesn't have an optimizing compiler?
<Hipo>
It does, it's not just as good at optimizing. :P
<Smerdyakov>
That's right. OCaml gets by by using smart default encodings at things.
<Smerdyakov>
s/at/of
<Smerdyakov>
From what I've heard, it doesn't do anything worth calling "program analysis."
<Smerdyakov>
(Except for type inference, I guess)
<vdrab>
I see
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<vdrab>
it's just that I don't find many SML to be very visible, compared to the ocaml community.... maybe just an impression though...
<vdrab>
how similar is it to ocaml? does knowledge of the one translate pretty much to the other?
<Smerdyakov>
Ocaml minus OO and too many built-in hacks == SML, to a first approximation.
<vdrab>
I could live without OO for this specific problem I guess
<vdrab>
does it have good libraries for everyday stuff?
<Smerdyakov>
Records, recursive types, and closures give you all the benefits of most OO uses.
<Smerdyakov>
(At least OCaml OO uses, that is)
<Smerdyakov>
Libraries aren't an issue, since all the major compilers have C FFIs.
<vdrab>
as a side question: how does it manage GUI apps? I always wonder how non-OO languages do that
<vdrab>
but maybe I don't want to write any C...
<Smerdyakov>
You don't need to, but there are C libraries for most anything.
<vdrab>
i see
<vdrab>
I'm not too keen on FFIs though.... they tend to work well in theory more than in practise.
<vdrab>
anyways, that's not an issue
<Smerdyakov>
MLton, SML/NJ, and OCaml have good FFIs.
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<haakonn>
i'm trying PMap.fold to form the union of two maps (all key->value mappings from both, in one map). what's wrong with: PMap.fold (fun k v a -> PMap.add k v a) map2 map1 ? (PMap is a Map variant from extlib btw, very similar)
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<haakonn>
(i can reduce that to PMap.fold PMap.add map2 map1 of course :) but i still get a type error i don't understand
<pango>
from what I understand, the function is called with the pmap values only (and the accumulator, of course)
<haakonn>
no keys? hm
<pango>
I suspect the documentation is incorrect, and what you want is foldi
<haakonn>
i suspected the same :) i'll check out foldi
<haakonn>
ah, foldi sounds right
<haakonn>
jesus, it compiles *shocked*
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<pipegeek>
Hi, all. I'm rapidly trying to pick up ocaml (I'm about to TA an intro CS course that spends some considerable time with it), so please forgive me if I seem a little confused. I'm trying to use a couple of functions in the Str module (namely, Str.split and Str.regexp), but said module does not appear to be imported by default. I'd rather not use #use, so how do I go about making this module available?
<Submarine>
you need to link with it
<Submarine>
use ocamlmktop to produce a toplevel with said module linked in
<Smerdyakov>
OCaml at Brown? I never would have guessed that.
<pipegeek>
Yep. I'm TAing the alternate intro CS course-- CS17/18. We cover functional and object-oriented programming--starting in scheme, moving to ocaml (sml until two years ago), and then java.
<pipegeek>
err...I use the word "cover" loosely
<Smerdyakov>
The worst kind of course. You need a prof who know what he's doing, or it's an unqualified disaster.
<pipegeek>
Luckily, we have just such a professor. s. Phil Klein and John Hughes. They cram a lot in, but it's well worth it.
<Smerdyakov>
OK. A huge proportion of questions asked by students in functional language channels are in the context of courses that run rapidly through different programming paradigms.
<pipegeek>
It's true. While we do spend the first semester in functional-land, most students don't return for at least a year and a half (CS173 -- programming languages -- is taught in Scheme). I'm afraid I don't think there's any course here which covers ocaml in depth, which is very unfortunate.
<Smerdyakov>
Courses on programming languages are silly. You should be able to learn them on your own when you have the basic concepts down.
<Snark>
but how do you get the basic concepts!?
<pipegeek>
Course, I think the idea of 17/18 is to get said concepts down--the focus is less on the specific languages than on the underlying concepts. 173 is also not a *scheme* course, per se--they just use it as an example
<Smerdyakov>
Snark, by learning a few paradigmatic languages.
<Smerdyakov>
Snark, and probably only the important parts of those
<Snark>
so courses on programming languages aren't that silly after all *g*
<Smerdyakov>
I meant "courses that go into specific languages in depth."
<Snark>
oh, yes... going in depth is indeed silly
<Submarine>
John Hugues... the name rings a bell
<pipegeek>
a.k.a. "Spike", for some reason
<Smerdyakov>
I think this John Hughes is a famous Haskell person..?
<pipegeek>
Well... I... don't think so. He was a math person, who slowly moved into CS over a course of years (or so he would have it). His primary interest is, oddly enough, computer graphics.
<pipegeek>
In any case, I need to get back to work. Thanks for the help.
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<starbuck>
mooooooooo
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<ulfdoz>
bye
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<twobitsprit1>
hey... I don't see anything about this in the documentation, but I was wondering if Ocaml had a simpler pattern matching syntax... It just seems a but superfluous to explicitly use "match" just after the "=" of a function definition...
<twobitsprit1>
i.e.: "let f x = first :: rest -> first | [] -> []"
<twobitsprit1>
especially being as the "function" expression allows implied "match"... I know I can say "f = function first :: rest -> rest | [] -> []" but I can't rely on the same syntax for a "let f x = ..." expression...
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<pnou>
don't think there is anything shorter than function