dark_light changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.09.2 available! Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://sardes.inrialpes.fr/~aschmitt/cwn/ | A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem/ | Mailing List: http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list/ | Cookbook: http://pleac.sourceforge.net/
<ayrnieu> just the normal introductions, I'd suppose.
<kmacy> any feelings on how widely used a parallelized GC for ocaml would be used if such a thing existed?
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<ayrnieu> no.
<kmacy> I'm the maintainer for sun4v on FreeBSD
<kmacy> the T1 has 8 cores with 4 threads per core and the T2 will have 8 cores with 8 threads per core
<kmacy> The ocaml team's preferred style is obviously to do everything via message passing
<kmacy> the folks at IBM have done a fairly good job of making scalable garbage collectors for java
<kmacy> oh well, nm
<abez> kmacy: you should get on the ocaml mailinglist and ask that question
<pango> and they'll answer "oh, no, not again" ;)
<pango> check the archives first :)
<kmacy> abez: lol
<kmacy> I know they couldn't get their version to work reliably
<kmacy> and they've been permanently scarred
<kmacy> I'm pretty scarred from having used LinuxThreads myself
<kmacy> thankfully that has been superannuated
<kmacy> abez: I've read the archives
<kmacy> abez: I was wondering if any users have independent opinions
<pango> given ML allocation rate, allocation also need a very fast path, that seem difficult to get with multi threading
<abez> kmacy: I'm worried that with the advent of multi-core processors for cheap that ocaml might be losing out performance wise.
<kmacy> pango: that is an issue
<kmacy> abez: 8-core isn't a pipe dream
<kmacy> pango: however, that is typically addressed by having a global heap that hands out smaller chunks for individual cpus
<pango> you mean each cpu working with its own minor heap ? yes... I guess minor collection(s) get more tricky, however
<kmacy> yes
<kmacy> to both
<pango> the current OCaml's GC is a simplification of their older multithreaded GC,... it's much faster, and they do not seem too eager to get back in time ;)
<kmacy> pango: I know, but pcheng's work indicates that it still ends up being a win on >= 2-way
<kmacy> pango: in principle one could do the same as linux, freebsd, etc. do and have an SMP option
<kmacy> pango: so that the remaining UP users don't pay the extra overhead
<pango> all you have to do is convince them ;)
<kmacy> pango: actually
<kmacy> I was thinking of doing it for my own benefit
<kmacy> if users end up using it
<kmacy> they will convince them
<kmacy> and if not
<kmacy> its a potentially useful tool for scalable computing
<kmacy> for me
<kmacy> I've looked at GHC - they're more amenable to doing scaling work, but they have a lot of basic performance issues
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<kmacy> and rotted sparc support
<pango> for me as a mere user, the more the merrier :)
<kmacy> comparing the two
<kmacy> ocaml isn't as far away from what I want
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<pango> preserving physical equality (==) looks like an interesting subproblem :)
<kmacy> heh
<kmacy> how much relies on that?
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<abez> YEAH
<abez> fixed ocaml-jack
<abez> (not quite)
<abez> but it sorta works!
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<abez> hells yeah
<levi_home> What is ocaml-jack?
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<abez> levi_home: jackit.sf.net
<abez> levi_home: it is bindings for jack, a low-latency audio routing application
<abez> levi_home: I was just having so much trouble with my ocaml alsa bindings
<abez> nini
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<ponto> Hi, I try to install ocam from source on an aix 5.3 machine. there are at least two issues. first configure says that Configuration for the native-code compiler is not supported. And the second is that make install fails with:cp: mLast.cmo: A file or directory in the path name does not exist. What could be wrong?
<love-pingoo> in case nobody answers, try the caml-list...
<ponto> Hmm. Mailinglists are so annoying. But I will try it. Thanks
<love-pingoo> you don't even need to register
<love-pingoo> some experts read that, including the official team
<ponto> Is there a nntp interface?
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<love-pingoo> dunno
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<TFK> (1) Can I define infix functions? (2) Is there an infix function composition function built-in?
<flux__> (1) yes, but their names must be composed of operator characters (2) no
<flux__> and their precedency is determined by the first character in the operator's name
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<TFK> Hmm, I see I can add stuff using camlp4.
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<TFK> Hmmm, what's make/configure for win32? GNU's AutoMake and AutoConf?
<TFK> Or should I use MSYS?
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<TFK> hmm, I need sh for windows o_O
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<gim> does anyone know how to display a .png image with lablgtk2?
<love-pingoo> you could stuff it in a button ...
<gim> salut love-pingoo :)
<love-pingoo> I don't remember much of gtk actually :p
* TFK seeks to compile camomile under win32
<love-pingoo> gim: salut
<love-pingoo> you could also use glade (it works with ocaml too!)
<gim> i don't want it in a button
<gim> i want to blit it to a pixmap
<TFK> Hmmm, building camomile with MSYS tells me it can't open pervasives.cmi during make.
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<TFK> Seems like Camomile also requires a C++ compiler? o_O
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<abez> I thought gtk had canvases
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* TFK wonders why the final E was ommited from Unix.O_CREAT
<abez> TFK: probably just to be cool
<TFK> "Cool" is when you give names like A, B, C.
<TFK> O_CREAT just looks like a typo :-P
<abez> if they wanted to be all unix about it it should've been O_CRT
<TFK> after I did open Unix;; in the toplevel, why is this code wrong:
<TFK> # let test_file = openfile "test.txt" [O_RDONLY; O_CREAT] 0o640;;
<TFK> Reference to undefined global `Unix'
<abez> because you didn't tell the interpretter where unix.cma is
<TFK> Ah, the no-vowel approach.
<abez> abez@reptile:~$ ocaml unix.cma Objective Caml version 3.09.1
<abez> # open Unix;;
<abez> # Unix.O_CREAT;;
<abez> - : Unix.open_flag = O_CREAT
<abez> #
<TFK> I didn't tell it where List is, either, but open List;; did the right thing.
<abez> does that help?
<abez> List is in pervasives
<abez> it is auto-opened
<TFK> Oh?
<abez> yep
<abez> Do into the manual and look at pervasives
<abez> there's a lot of great stuff there
<abez> Although it is missing really useful things too >:(
<abez> sometimes the ocamllib is too frustrating short sighted
<TFK> Yeah, like most of the useful list manipulation functions...
<TFK> Anyway, the reference for Pervasives mentions no such thing.
<Smerdyakov> List is not in pervasives, but is it in the standard library.
<TFK> Isn't Unix?
<Smerdyakov> s/is it/it is
<Smerdyakov> No, obviously Unix wouldn't be in the standard library, since not every platform is Unix.
<abez> I consider the standard lib the modules that are packaged with ocaml
<TFK> Smerdyakov, no, it's just that not all things are implemented on non-Unix platforms.
<TFK> Unix is packaged with OCaml o_O
<Smerdyakov> abez, well, it is generally a bad idea to use different terminology than that in the manual, and that is what you are doing.
<Smerdyakov> abez, List is not in Pervasives, and Unix is not in the standard library.
<abez> Smerdyakov: sorry I just use a whole whackload of languages
<Smerdyakov> abez, you are arrested for treason.
<TFK> Well, that might explain why I can't open files o_O
<abez> I'm trying to find the manual page which lists the modules in ocaml which you don't have to open
<abez> TFK: do you need Unix or can you use pervasives?
<TFK> Well, I need to open a file.
<TFK> I guess that's in pervasives, right?
<Smerdyakov> TFK, why don't you ask the manual?
<abez> TFK: for instance you can use let fd = open_in "filename"
<TFK> Smerdyakov, I was under the impression that (1) Unix was shipped with OCaml, but (2) on other platforms not everything is implemented, and since (3) Unix has file-handling functions, (4) I should use that.
<Smerdyakov> TFK, OK. Definitely wrong. :)
<TFK> abez, thanks :-)
<abez> TFK: that said you might need to unix to get any real work done ;)
<TFK> Smerdyakov, lol, apparently ;-)
<Smerdyakov> abez, rubbish. Most of my OCaml code bases have no uses of Unix.
<abez> Smerdyakov: I find that I end up using it alot for unconventional things. Regardless is there something that comes with standard ocaml that lets me read and write ieee floats?
<Smerdyakov> abez, beats me. I don't use floats.
<abez> Smerdyakov: big-endian/little-endian ints
<Smerdyakov> abez, I don't know what your last line means, as it is not a complete sentence.
<abez> I want to read and write big-endian and little-end integers in ocaml w/o the use of external libraries.
<abez> Do you know how to that?
<Smerdyakov> o.
<Smerdyakov> No.
<abez> :(
<abez> I use extlib
<abez> but I don't like it.
<Smerdyakov> I mean, it's trivial to roll your own, but I guess you mean existing functions that do all the work.
<abez> well there should be
<abez> I have to deal with this all the time in ocaml and frankly it is annoying nothing is included or built in
* TFK nods
<Smerdyakov> The real problem is lack of a standard infrastructure for distributing libraries.
<TFK> That, too.
<TFK> But how about basic list and string functions?
<Smerdyakov> Everyone has his own ideas of what ought to be "built in."
<abez> I think it is especially important since ocaml uses its own ints and floats which makes it hard for me to integrate with other software
<Smerdyakov> There should be no standard library. Everything should be its own separate piece, with a system that makes installing a subset of these pieces automatically very easy.
<TFK> That would encourage fragmentation of basic functionality.
<Smerdyakov> No.
<Smerdyakov> Read the "very easy" part.
<TFK> So?
<TFK> I don't like your set of string functions, so I roll my own.
<TFK> And distribute that.
<Smerdyakov> Eventually the best choice becomes standard and others obselesce.
<TFK> And then some newbie comes along, and he can't make head nor tails of the code, and manual writers don't know what to write about, and it's chaos and my head hurts :-(
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<TFK> "Eventually" as in a thousand years?
<Smerdyakov> No. As in one year.
<Smerdyakov> OCaml programmers tend to be reasonable people and understand these problems.
<TFK> Well, currently we're screwed both ways - the stdlib is lacking and there's no easy library distribution mechanism.
<TFK> Besides, look at languages, or GUI toolkits. No Single Language or Single GUI Toolkit has prevailed.
<Smerdyakov> The meta way in which we're screwed is the centralized control of the OCaml code base.
<TFK> What do you mean?
<Smerdyakov> Only INRIA people can make changes to the OCaml distribution.
<Smerdyakov> And they are, on average, too concerned about it as a research project vs. a real tool.
<TFK> Well, why not make a third-party distribution tool?
<TFK> Or is that too difficult without INRIA cooperation?
<pango> like Godi ?
* TFK looks
<abez> Smerdyakov: one of my buddies' buddies submitted a bunch of AMD64 code to ocaml and they, INRIA, didn't know what it was and ignored it :(
<abez> Smerdyakov: they were having problems with PIC on AMD64
<abez> Smerdyakov: althought it is nice that ocaml gets lots of research thrown at it :)
<abez> TFK: make an xOcaml
<TFK> What's that?
<TFK> First of all, I want to get Camomile working o.o;;
<abez> TFK: It was an xemacs joke
<TFK> Oh o.o
<TFK> BTW, for whom it may concern: Notepad++ does syntax highlighting on OCaml code.
<abez> oh and it is free software :O
<TFK> And it even has a cool Iguana mascot :D
<TFK> OK, this is a new one: make: *** No rule to make target `public/main.mlp', needed by `public/main.ml'.
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<yip> hello ocaml. is ocaml good for cgi programming?
<abez> ocaml is as good as anything else except the CGI libs are pretty weak as far as I understand
<abez> but I could be wrong. I haven't done much CGIwise in ocaml
<TFK> google is stumped.
<abez> yip: http://ocaml-cgi.sourceforge.net/netcgi/ :| I dunno it looks interesting but never used it
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<abez> yip: probably a better starting location http://www.ocaml-tutorial.org/ocaml_and_the_web
<TFK> Has anyone installed Camomile (even on a Unix system)? If anyone could please send me their make file after the ./configure script I'd greatly appreciate it.
<TFK> Actually, n/m. I think the problem is elsewhere.
<TFK> http://rafb.net/paste/results/GgblML56.html <--- any obvious problems here?
<abez> public/main.mlp:1: error: syntax error before '-' token
<TFK> It's just a comment there...
<TFK> Is it trying to compile OCaml code with a C++ compiler?...
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<abez> looks sorta weird
<pango> probably using it as preprocessor (cpp)
<pango> cf. -P flag
<TFK> Yeah, this has just occured to me o.o;;
<TFK> (that's what they said in the configure script in regards to cpp...)
<pango> problem is, those are less and less language agnostic, and using them on anything but C code is... risky
<TFK> Well, the CPP of MinGW is just like the Unix CPPs... right?
<TFK> Anyway, there's a new error (YAY!):
<TFK> cc1.exe: error: output filename specified twice
<TFK> cc1.exe: internal: No such file or directory
<pango> that's not specific to mingw
<TFK> The CPP?
<TFK> (Ignore the error: uninformative as posted, sorry)
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<TFK> why would the error change? the makefile didn't!
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<TFK> Now it's looking for an assembler.
<TFK> WHY DOES IT WANT AN ASSEMBLER?!
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<TFK> http://rafb.net/paste/results/YlJ2Vr85.html <--- error during partial linking :-( any ideas?
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<abez> the slashes are wrong?
<TFK> Well, the file really doesn't exist. I searched the entire system. Also, trying that command in the standard prompt gives the same error.
<TFK> It appears that somewhere down the line, that file either doesn't get created or gets deleted too soon.
<TFK> what are camlresp files anyway?
<TFK> http://lists.metaprl.org/pipermail/metaprl-users/2004-October/000068.html <--- a similar error from two years ago...
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<TFK> Well, their solution was to ditch native code compilation altogether... but it seems that the camomile configure script has no option for forcing byte compilation.
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<TFK> Useless.
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