<Smerdyakov>
If you don't have background in programming languages research, you won't find a conference that isn't mostly things that will mystify you.
<tsuyoshi>
hey that looks interesting
<tsuyoshi>
although nothing to do with my project
<Smerdyakov>
But maybe you want to be mystified.
<tsuyoshi>
well.. you know
<tsuyoshi>
I have on occasion gone to biology conferences just to meet women
<tsuyoshi>
I don't know anything about biology
<Smerdyakov>
At any respectable conference, almost everyone already knows almost everyone that he is going to communicate with.
<Smerdyakov>
And the first conversations you have with new people involve "what do you do in your research?".
<tsuyoshi>
so I take it you don't like my method of meeting women
<Smerdyakov>
You don't go to CS conferences to meet women.
<tsuyoshi>
let me tell you.. it is a billion times better than going to a bar
<tsuyoshi>
oh sure
<tsuyoshi>
you go to biology conferences
<stevan>
tsuyoshi: there is also the CUFP, which is maybe a little closer to what you are thinking
<tsuyoshi>
the conferences on subjects I actually know something about are like 99% men
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, that's a one-day workshop.
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, how much money will your college throw you to attend a conference?
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<tsuyoshi>
smerdyakov: who knows.. they have $20k a year and someone told me not too many people apply for it
<tsuyoshi>
I'm guessing.. $500-2000
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, $2000 is about right for a European conference trip. Not terribly cheap. :P
<tsuyoshi>
probably just airfare+hotel
<tsuyoshi>
hey this cufp looks cool too
<Smerdyakov>
I know I'm spending more than that for my POPL trip next week, but I'm also not going super-budget in my arrangements, either.
<tsuyoshi>
but do they just have it in september?
<tsuyoshi>
well.. I dunno, it's just an idea
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, maybe you can convince the granters to pay for you to travel to the one day of CUFP in Germany next fall, but it really sounds silly to me.
<tsuyoshi>
I usually go somewhere on a vacation every winter but the last two years I've been saving up to move to japan
<Smerdyakov>
Why do you want to move to Japan?
<tsuyoshi>
hmm.. it is hard to summarize
<tsuyoshi>
I went to tokyo and just wanted to live there
<Smerdyakov>
I think of Japan as being an anti-creativity center of the world, at least as far as CS stuff goes.
<tsuyoshi>
yeah.. world center of inside-the-box thinking
<tsuyoshi>
but then I am curious, where do you think the creativity center is?
<tsuyoshi>
so cufp is in germany?
<Smerdyakov>
I think the US is the creativity center of the software world, at least in terms of volume.
<tsuyoshi>
yeah I guess so
<Smerdyakov>
CUFP is a _workshop_, not a conference. You don't travel around the world to attend a workshop unless you're _trying_ to burn resources.
<tsuyoshi>
it seems like there are plenty of creative people in europe though
<stevan>
tsuyoshi: I would try and go to ICFP if I were you
<stevan>
attend the CUFP while you are there of course
<stevan>
but Smerdyakov has a point.,.. its a long way to travel for one day
<Smerdyakov>
Yes, ICFP is relatively friendly towards clueless undergrads who show up looking for a good time. :-)
<tsuyoshi>
where is icfp?
<Smerdyakov>
Freiburg, Germany this year
<tsuyoshi>
last one was in portland.. do they always have it there
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: I would expect people wanting to learn are not turned away
<tsuyoshi>
hrm.. I should have gone to the last one
<tsuyoshi>
I'm only a hundred miles or so away
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, it's not a matter of principles. People want to have technical discussions at these conferences, and being polite to one participant can drag the whole thing down.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: no reason that one person cant just listen and learn
<tsuyoshi>
smerdyakov: so you don't like to travel?
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, sure, and that person will start feeling bad.
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, no. Why did you think that?
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: I find it hard to believe that these confernces are so elitist
<tsuyoshi>
the part where you said "You don't travel around the world to attend a workshop"
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: hopefully that person will have better self esteem ;)
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, almost everyone at any of those we've mentioned has a PhD in CS or math or is pursuing one. There is a shared background that lets you cut right to the good part in a discussion.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: funny, the Keynote at POPL is being given by a 8th grade dropout
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, admit to yourself that you're traveling for some other reason, in such cases. One day of talks isn't going to make economic sense to people with money to offer.
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, the POPL organizers do a good job of bringing in outsiders for the invited talks.
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, the attendees always fit the profile I gave.
<tsuyoshi>
hmm.. the etaps looks very interesting but really no relation to my project at all
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: no doubt, but that does not mean someone who does not ahve a Phd in CS shouldnt go if they are interested
<tsuyoshi>
oh well
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, incredible. You surveyed all of ETAPS in that little time? :D
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, I'm going to claim that the benefit is much less for someone who isn't on track in the research community.
<tsuyoshi>
smerdyakov: well I read all the summaries
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: also I would hardly call audrey tang an "outsider" in the functional language community at this point
<tsuyoshi>
of the workshops
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, POPL is a conference on the foundations of programming languages. She's an outsider w.r.t. that community.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: I would claim the opposite,.. if you are not on track with the research community,..then you much more you can learn from going :)
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, have you ever been to any of these conferences?
<stevan>
Not yet :)
* stevan
is planning a trip now though
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, I have, both before and after starting grad school. Huge difference in the "after" category. :)
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, everything about them is organized to facilitate one goal: helping researchers learn about each others' work. It doesn't mesh well with random curious people.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: ok, if you say so.
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, almost everyone you meet is obsessed with the subject area, to varying degrees.
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: I guess my only point is that CS degrees and research grants should be optional
<stevan>
(which of course they are)
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, the conferences are always organized by people with CS PhDs. What are you expecting? :P
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: to learn some cool stuff from some really smart people whose papers I have read
<stevan>
which I expect is similar to your goals
<stevan>
just you are on a degree track,..and I am not
<stevan>
but we both share similar obsessions, trust me
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, most people there want to pitch their own research to others at every opportunity, organize collaborations, look for jobs, etc..
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, a passive approach will stick out.
<stevan>
I am not worried, I dont mind sticking out a bit :)
<tsuyoshi>
hmm.. maybe instead of a project grant I can just get a grant to go to the conference
<tsuyoshi>
I think I can get a class grant for that
<tsuyoshi>
there's like a $2k budget.. so they wouldn't cover everything
<tsuyoshi>
where is braga anyway
<Smerdyakov>
Portugal
<stevan>
Portugal IIRC
<tsuyoshi>
I know a guy who lives in lisbon.. how far is braga from there
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, I think you'd like ICFP better.
* stevan
suggests google maps :)
<tsuyoshi>
Smerdyakov: yeah but that's a ways off
<tsuyoshi>
maybe I'll go to both
<stevan>
tsuyoshi: there are always non-functional programming language conferences too
<tsuyoshi>
ok braga is quite far from lisbon
<stevan>
if you are just looking for a conference
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, if you don't mind just going to the other side of the country, TFP (Trends in Functional Programming) is also a good match.
<tsuyoshi>
Smerdyakov: where is that?
<Smerdyakov>
NYC
<tsuyoshi>
awesome
<tsuyoshi>
I can never get enough of new york
<stevan>
oh,.. TFP does look good
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: are you going to that?
<Smerdyakov>
TFP is conference lite. The organizers describe it as less than a conference but more than a workshop.
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, nah. ICFP is more my cup of tea.
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, I will go to ICFP if I get a paper in.
<tsuyoshi>
hmm... I can't do a paper though
<tsuyoshi>
I don't think I have anything original to say about programming really
<tsuyoshi>
I shall talk to faculty about it and see what we can do though
<tsuyoshi>
this tfp looks good
<stevan>
Smerdyakov: too bad,..we would have argued in person ;)
<Smerdyakov>
stevan, head to the FCRC this summer. I hope to be there, amply prepared for argumentation.
<tsuyoshi>
maybe if I can get ocaml to work in rockbox
<tsuyoshi>
that would be a cool paper I bet
<Smerdyakov>
tsuyoshi, TFP is very easygoing on paper refereeing, I think, and they give special consideration to students... so it might be worth trying.
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<metaperl>
what is the primary OCaml mailing list/newsgroup?