#ocaml on 2007-11-08 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2007-05-23 19:57 mbishop changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab Ocaml 3.10.0 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)

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00:15 <jdh30> hi yaron

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00:30 <Smerdyakov> jdh30, oooo, you been dissed.

00:34 <mbishop> lemme guess, on reddit

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01:12 <jdh30> there's another big thread about me being cross posted to c.l.f

01:13 <jdh30> rainer joswig just said that i was banned from wikipedia, kicked from IRC and am a liar...

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01:26 <jdh30> this forum seems to be very quiet...

01:26 <mbishop> Here? it's always quiet :(

01:27 <jdh30> weird

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01:27 <jdh30> did you read "Benchmarking ray tracing, Haskell vs. OCaml"?

01:28 <mbishop> yeah

01:28 <jdh30> i don't get it...

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01:52 <jdh30> hi paul

02:01 <psnively> Hello Jon. How're things?

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02:04 <jdh30> Not too bad. Just reading the latest rebuttal of my ray tracer language comparison at: http://augustss.blogspot.com/2007/11/benchmarking-ray-tracing-haskell-vs.html

02:05 <jdh30> Apparently Haskell is as fast as OCaml if you move to legacy hardware, change the OCaml code and compile line...

02:07 <psnively> OIC. He used GHC 6.8.1 on a 32-bit system?

02:09 <jdh30> Yeah. The newer GHC is a red herring: he is comparing the performance difference between GHC6 and OCaml from the 64-bit results on my site with his own 32-bit results.

02:09 <psnively> Dare I ask how he changed the O'Caml code?

02:10 <psnively> Not necessarily a red herring; there actually are some nice performance improvements in 6.8.1.

02:10 <jdh30> I haven't looked. I just noticed a comment saying that it would be nice if he compared his new results with my originals.

02:10 <jdh30> I'm sure he'll get the same results as me if he runs his 64-bit CPU in 64-bit mode... :-)

02:10 <psnively> Yes, people seem to get that the comparison is 32/64 bit and likely to be quite different in practice between the platforms.

02:10 <jdh30> However, his Haskell implementations are almost twice as fast as the previous ones on my machine and that puts Haskell as a much more competitive language.

02:11 <jdh30> Well, my site gives both 32-bit (red) and 64-bit results so I don't see how he got confused about that or about my machine (which is detailed at the top of the results page)...

02:13 <psnively> I don't know that he did get confused.

02:14 <psnively> I think it's possible to write relatively performant Haskell, especially with GHC 6.8.1. I know it's possible to write relatively performant O'Caml. :-)

02:19 <psnively> I do think it's time to develop a couple of things... first, world-class Aqua bindings for O'Caml, and secondly, a very good scene graph API around LablGl (inspired by, say, OpenSceneGraph).

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02:36 <jdh30> We put a lot of work into the scene graph in Smoke, which would work equally well for 3D.

02:36 <jdh30> Aqua bindings I don't know about. We've been considering moving into the Mac market but things are really busy right now...

02:41 <yminsky> Hi Jon.

02:42 <yminsky> I have a question for you...

02:42 <jdh30> What's that?

02:43 <yminsky> I recently noticed the posting on your rendering benchmark and Haskell. I'm curious what you think is going on. Has GHC just gotten that much better?

02:43 <jdh30> The new results are equivalent to my old 32-bit results. So I would say that Haskell has not improved that much.

02:43 <psnively> Heh.

02:44 <jdh30> However, the new Haskell implementations are substantially faster than the old ones on all systems I've tried.

02:44 <jdh30> So I think the new implementations really put Haskell on the map, even in the context of performance-intensive programs.

02:45 <yminsky> I thought in your old 32-bit results, Haskell was a chunk behind OCaml, not ahead (even on 32-bit)

02:46 <yminsky> (although I see the 32-bit results aren't on your site anymore)

02:47 <jdh30> Now that you mention it, I'm not sure I ever had 32-bit results for Haskell. OCaml is certainly a lot slower in 32-bit.

02:47 <jdh30> I'll benchmark it now. I really need to do something to clean up that image as well: all these results are getting a bit overwhelming.

02:47 <yminsky> I agree. It's a bit hard to parse at this point.

02:47 <jdh30> I also have results for 64-bit MLton, which is a big disappointment... :-(

02:47 <psnively> Haskell people seem very pleased with the improvements in GHC 6.8.1.

02:48 <jdh30> With the new Haskell implementations, Haskell is performant using only GHC 6.5 here.

02:48 <jdh30> I haven't even tried 6.8...

02:48 <yminsky> I'll be curious what Steven has to say about the mlton results. I actually hadn't realized the 64-bit back-end had landed yet.

02:49 <jdh30> Yeah. IIRC, MLton is the only implementation that actually sees a slow-down moving to 64-bit. Real shame...

02:49 <jdh30> We've been debating on c.l.functional recently and I think there is significant interest in a new FPL development, drawing upon OCaml, MLton, Haskell and F#.

02:49 <jdh30> I'd love to see a bigger, better language...

02:50 <psnively> Really? There aren't huge wars between the strict and lazy camps?

02:51 <yminsky> Both Simon Peyton Jones and Phil Wadler seem to be of the opinion that the "next language" should be strict by default. SPJ has been peddling his "the next ML will be pure and the next Haskell will be strict" line for a while now.

02:51 <jdh30> Hmm, I agree with strict but I'm not sure about pure...

02:52 <jdh30> Two reasons for impurity are: easier for newbies coming from imperative languages to gradually adopt a pure style when applicable, and easier for experts to write efficient code.

02:52 <yminsky> I haven't played around enough with a pure language to have a real opinion on it. My intuition is that banning state is too extreme, but it would be nice for the type-system to understand which functions do and do not have side effects.

02:53 <mbishop> that would be neat

02:53 <mbishop> having the type system tell you when something is unsafe

02:53 <jdh30> The ray tracer is a good example: the Haskell has been optimized by lots of people over a long period of time and only just got competitive.

02:53 <psnively> I dunno. With Oleg and Ken Shan's wizardry in taking advantage of purity, I'm becoming convinced.

02:54 <mbishop> Also, who do I poke to find out why the graphics module still has hickups with signals and the Unix module?

02:54 <mbishop> I saw Xavier Leroy posted a workaround to that problem 5 years ago

02:54 <mbishop> yet nothing actually got fixed heh

02:55 <jdh30> yaron: yes, I agree about types for pure fns.

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03:00 <jdh30> I'd like OCaml plus: pattern matching over lazy values, type classes and modern integrated graphics.

03:00 <jdh30> hi robert

03:01 <jdh30> By "modern integrated graphics" I mean something akin to Mathematica's notebook interface.

03:01 <RobertFischer> Hey.

03:01 <jdh30> I just noticed that guy also tweaked the GHC command line options to improve performance significantly.

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03:07 <psnively> They seem like reasonable options to me.

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09:42 <flux> I had an idea the other day.. it should be possible to create reliable refactoring tools with camlp4 and the piece of code that annotates the code with types (per -dtypes)

09:43 <flux> for example renaming constructors or types without bad side effects

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11:31 <wieczyk> Hi

11:31 <wieczyk> Are somebody here ?

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16:57 <simon> hi. does anyone here know which debian apt package to install while avoiding various X11-related package dependencies?

16:58 <rwmjones> simon, I think the *-nox packages

16:58 <simon> thanks, rwmjones!

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21:21 <pwetpwet> Hi

21:21 <jonafan> hello

21:21 <ita> grut

21:23 <pwetpwet> I've got a question, when i've two references b and c on a same record, and i make b := !c, then when i change b shall it change c too ?

21:25 <jonafan> my guess is yes

21:26 <jonafan> you mean b is mutable and you're changing it, right?

21:27 <jonafan> brb

21:27 <ita> b=!c <- love this typo

21:28 <pwetpwet> no, b and c are references on a record in fact

21:36 <jonafan> then probably not

21:39 <jonafan> i just tried it, and it seems they will both change

22:00 <pango_> !b and !c are the same because b and c and identical :)

22:14 <pango_> if you change b it won't change c; but if you change !b in will affect !c

22:17 <pango_> or rather, since you can't really change b, should I say "if you change b.contents, it won't change c.contents"

22:18 <pango_> (type 'a ref = { mutable contents : 'a })

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22:40 <pango_> http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=recordreferenceassignmepz0.png

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23:03 <rwmjones> popups--

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23:06 * pango_ noscripts ;)

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23:14 <rwmjones> !((object val virtual x:'a method x=x end)#x) ;;

23:14 <xavierbot> Objective Caml version 3.10.0

23:14 <xavierbot> Camlp4 Parsing version 3.10.0

23:14 <rwmjones> exception E of [>] try raise(E`X) with E`X x-> !x;;

23:14 <xavierbot> Characters 16-18:

23:14 <xavierbot> Parse error: ">" or "|" or [row_field] expected after "[" (in [ctyp])

23:14 <xavierbot> exception E of [>] try raise(E`X) with E`X x-> !x;;

23:14 <xavierbot> ^^

23:15 Jaime is now known as Ober

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