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<ttamttam>
/lits
<JohnnyL>
any of you use opengl?
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<Jeff_123>
has anyone figured out a good way to learn the new camlp4?
<flux>
I haven't, but I suppose the best way is to trying to do something useful with it?-)
<Jeff_123>
probably. is it even documented yet?
<Jeff_123>
I learned labltk, but at least that has documentation in the form of the tk man pages
<Yoric[DT]>
It is very vaguely documented.
<Yoric[DT]>
I've managed to do a few useful things with it.
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<Jeff_123>
yoric - did you know camlp4 before the 3.10 release?
<Yoric[DT]>
No.
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<Ogedei>
the 'Developing Applications With OCaml' book indicates that using fun to define anon functions is 'legacy from caml' -- why? is there a better way?
<Yoric[DT]>
I assume they mean function.
<Yoric[DT]>
It's essentially a more powerful fun.
<Ogedei>
does it allow multiple parameters?
<Yoric[DT]>
It does.
<Ogedei>
how? function x y -> y - x;; doesn't seem to work
<Yoric[DT]>
er...
<Yoric[DT]>
I may have just said something dump.
<Yoric[DT]>
I may have just said something dumb.
<Yoric[DT]>
Sorry.
<Ogedei>
i know I can write function x -> function y -> y - x;;
<Ogedei>
but, i'd say most people would prefer fun x y -> y - x;; to that
<Ogedei>
but i guess most of the time a let f x y ... is just as convenient
<mbishop>
fun can take multiple arguments
<Ogedei>
mbishop: I know -- so it isn't considered legacy and is used in modern OCaml?
<mbishop>
Yeah...nothing in OCaml is really legacy
<Ogedei>
well, that's an improvement on common lisp at least :P
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<mbishop>
heh
<mbishop>
Ocaml is implementation defined, and there is only one implementation, so :)
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<ita>
mbishop: you obviously have not read the manual
<mbishop>
Hmm?
* Yoric[DT]
has just found a second bug in the specifications of JavaScript 2.
<ita>
mbishop: just kidding (it reminds you of someone, doesnt it ?)
<mbishop>
I think Smerdyakov is more than able to fulfill his usual role :P
<Ogedei>
Yoric[DT]: what did they do wrong? (in JS2)
<ita>
Yoric[DT]: is it still possible to override Object.prototype ?
<Yoric[DT]>
The grammar is not LR(k), which is somewhat annoying when it's supposed to be implementable with a LR(1) recursive descent parser.
<Yoric[DT]>
Plus I managed to put the reference parser (which is part of the spec) in an infinite loop.
* Yoric[DT]
is only working on the syntax for now.
<Ogedei>
hah, I noticed the grammar is pretty awful -- I have written some tools that need to parse JS but am not very motivated to upgrade them to ECMA 4
<Yoric[DT]>
I'm writing a parser in OCaml.
<Yoric[DT]>
A usable prototype should be available in a few weeks.
<Yoric[DT]>
(my current prototype -- which doesn't build the AST -- currently passes 39 of the 63 tests)
<Yoric[DT]>
If you need JS parsing, feel free to use it :)
<Ogedei>
does OCaml have something like Haskell's Parsec? ... probably not, since it's a rather Monad-oriented thing
<Ogedei>
I need JS parsing written in JS, and with a whole bunch of other complications, heh
<Yoric[DT]>
There's a library of parser combinators for OCaml, yes.
<Yoric[DT]>
I don't remember the name.
<Ogedei>
cool
<Yoric[DT]>
But if you look for "parsec OCaml", you might find it :)
<Yoric[DT]>
At the moment, I'm using OCaml's built-in stream parsers.
<Yoric[DT]>
They are quite good for LR(1) and absolutely not meant for anything else.
<Ogedei>
also (being rather new to OCaml and its community).. concerning that single implementation -- is there ever much grumbling about it? concerning its stance on threads, for example
<Yoric[DT]>
(although since the parsers are first-class citizens, you can do a few nice things with them)
<Yoric[DT]>
OCaml and threads you mean ?
<Ogedei>
yes
<Yoric[DT]>
Besides the fact that I'm jealous of Haskell and it's STM ? :)
<Ogedei>
hahah
<Yoric[DT]>
s/it's/its/
<Yoric[DT]>
There's a nice library called coThreads, which does seem to fill just about every void we had.
<Yoric[DT]>
And there's always JoCaml.
<Ogedei>
oh, cool, I hadn't seen that
<Yoric[DT]>
It's a super-set of OCaml with concurrency, distribution, migration of threads, etc.
<Yoric[DT]>
Plus the very nice semantics of the join-calculus, which make all things such as mutexes largely obsolete, even in complex cases.
<Ogedei>
sounds intrigueing... I must look into it as soon as I finish this super-simple beginner's tutorial ;)
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<Ogedei>
is 'Developing Applications With OCaml' considered a good intro text? it's a bit slow, but seems complete
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
<Jeff_123>
there's ocamlp3l too
<Yoric[DT]>
Oh, yeah, forgot about that one.
<Jeff_123>
ogedei - I like that book yes
<Jeff_123>
free is always a nice bonus too :)
<Ogedei>
hah, indeed
<Jeff_123>
The order of the chappters is strange though. chapter 14 "modules" should be way earlier, like chapter 3, right after "functional programming"
<Ogedei>
what I wonder though is how coThreads can extend a thread-unsafe runtime to support real threads -- or is my information out of date and does the OCaml compiler produce safe code now? (as far as language-internal stuff goes -- not talking about any unsafe shared-memory messes the programmer can make)
<bluestorm_>
you can pick any chapter you like right in the middle anyway
<bluestorm_>
Ogedei: i'd guess it uses forks internally
<Ogedei>
bluestorm_: I see... scary
<bluestorm_>
hum
<bluestorm_>
scary ?
<bluestorm_>
forks are not that bad
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<Ogedei>
I guess not, quite a bit heavier than threads on a lot of platforms, though
<bluestorm_>
iirc there was some test done and they scale rather well, plus being simpler to garbage-collect and the like
<Yoric[DT]>
Ogedei: OCaml is thread-unsafe.
<Yoric[DT]>
IIRC, they use some form of STM for shared writable data.
<Ogedei>
transparently?
<Yoric[DT]>
Plus channels/signals (à la pi-calculus/Concurrent ML/...) for functional-style communications.
<Yoric[DT]>
I don't think so.
<Yoric[DT]>
I haven't tried coThreads myself, though.
<Ogedei>
okay, fair enough, and the built-in threads lib uses green threads?
<mbishop>
I believe it has an option
<mbishop>
coThreads can either use "regular" threads, or STM stuff
<pango>
builtin threads are green threads in bytecode mode, and system threads and mutex in native mode
<Yoric[DT]>
The second is rather limited, though.
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, if you like having hundreds of threads, that is :)
<Ogedei>
i can imagine
<pango>
depends what you use them for, I had no problem with hundreds of threads to program an I/O benchmarking tool
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, I had problems getting past something like 300 native threads.
<JohnnyL>
ocaml is so much like lisp it's scary.
<Yoric[DT]>
(or perhaps 400, can't remember the exact limit)
<pango>
Yoric[DT]: must have run into a system limit
<pango>
not OCaml's
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<jonafan>
has anyone tried jocaml?
<Yoric[DT]>
I have, some time ago.
<Yoric[DT]>
pango: it was a bit of both
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<Yoric[DT]>
I could increase the limit by tweaking the system.
<jonafan>
i read some thing about how it slaughtered erlang in some distributed computing thing
<jonafan>
but i don't know anything about it
<Yoric[DT]>
Or I could go farther when using C.
<Yoric[DT]>
The only think I can say is I find it better than Erlang.
<Ogedei>
heh, this trend of prefixing extra letters to language names... in a few more years, we'll have vdepxgryjocaml
<pango>
Yoric[DT]: Interesting, haven't tested with > 400, but I'll probably need to in a few weeks... :/
<Yoric[DT]>
Use coThreads :)
<Yoric[DT]>
(or JoCaml)
<Yoric[DT]>
Ogedei: that's not worse than TeX's versioning :)
* Ogedei
makes plans to write mojocaml
<pango>
Ogedei: metaocaml is already longer than that
<Ogedei>
pango: but not remotely as cool-sounding
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<Jeff_123>
mojometacaml? metamojocaml?
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<Jeff_123>
does anyone know how to see the code that implements camlp4oof.cma's list comprehensions?
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