mbishop changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab Ocaml 3.10.0 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<JohnnyL> can someone tell me why there is ;; and not just ;?
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<flux> ;; is a token that tells the compiler that the block is complete. you can have an expression a; b; c and the expression isn't complete between those points.
<flux> in actual program you don't need to use ;; if you don't want to
<flux> however, in that case you can only have module-level statements
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<flux> some may prefer to use ;; anyway - maybe because it helps tracking down compilation errors in certain cases better
<flux> I personally don't ever use ;;, except in the interactive top level
<flux> ..or when tracking down a compilation error ;)
<jonafan> i put ;;s after everything
<flux> I understand the revised (or relaoded?) syntax eliminates ;;
<xavierbot> I understand the revised (or relaoded?) syntax eliminates ;;
<xavierbot> ^^^^^^^^^^
<xavierbot> Characters 2-12:
<xavierbot> Parse error: currified constructor
<flux> so it's not strictly a must-have feature
<Yoric[DT]> I don't know about the reloaded syntax but the revised one does eliminate ;; .
<JohnnyL> i really like ocaml's interpreter. it's a sweet state environment for variables.
<JohnnyL> a super 'calculator'.
<JohnnyL> almost a loirning computer.
<JohnnyL> komputer
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<jonafan> !
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<JohnnyL> does ocaml interpreter read from source files upon function usage within the interpreter?
* Yoric[DT] doesn't catch the question.
<JohnnyL> Yoric for example, if you make a function call and the function isn't imported. does it import it?
<Yoric[DT]> You have to #open object files manually.
<Yoric[DT]> (or add put them in the command-line when calling ocaml)
<JohnnyL> you can do that in the interpreter?
<jonafan> #load "unix.cma";;
<Yoric[DT]> Oh, was it #load ?
* Yoric[DT] always confuses #load and #open .
<Yoric[DT]> Note that these #stuff things are specific to the interpreter.
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<jonafan> what's #open?
<Yoric[DT]> #open is probably to load source files
<flux> #open doesn't exist
<flux> it's #use
<Yoric[DT]> Is it ?
<Yoric[DT]> Sorry, my bad.
<Yoric[DT]> I don't use the toplevel that often.
<JohnnyL> what happens when you run out of ram/swap in ocaml?
<flux> depends on your operating system
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<JohnnyL> ?OUT OF MEMORY ERROR
<flux> although I don't actually have a good answer, I have never seen that happen
<flux> (I think)
<Yoric[DT]> As OCaml tends to limit its own memory usage, generally, OCaml bails out before the OS.
<flux> really?
<flux> I actually thought that when the OS is running out of memory, ocaml is only making the trashing worse, by running the garbage collector - which digs much pages from the swap, while the os is putting other pages back in
<pango> it's not too bad, as long as it doesn't try compacting the heap
<pango> (which is a big no-no when paging is involved)
<flux> it would be nice if the os provided a map of pages currently in swap
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<flux> perhaps there are some os-specific interfaces to retrieve that information
<JohnnyL> it should operate like an operating system.
<JohnnyL> 1 flag for age, another flag for use.
<JohnnyL> if flags are old, swap out old, inport new.
<pango> JohnnyL: the real problem is keeping (only) objects of similar use pattern within each page
<pango> s/use/usage/
<JohnnyL> pango, a depedency tree would help that?
<pango> cold objects with cold objects, hot objects with hot objects, etc.
<pango> yes, and dependant objects together too. (Gc already does that to some extend)
<pango> flux: mincore(2)
<flux> fun
<flux> does anything use that?
<pango> seen some patches for rsync that use it (to immediately drop pages that were brought in memory by rsync, but those that were already mapped)
<pango> s/but/but not/
<flux> nope, can't find a single project with google code search that would actually use it :-)
<pango> that looks a bit weird, I would have hoped madvise(... MADV_DONTNEED) to have achieved the same
<flux> (except for linux, libc, and that kind of stuff)
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<JohnnyL> i haven't looked at it. but how does ocaml handle error detection, reporting and passing?
<jonafan> exceptions?
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<JohnnyL> ok
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<JohnnyL> so just an if statement regarding some typical math or logic dis-behavior.
* Yoric[DT] doesn't understand the latest sentence.
<JohnnyL> Yoric[DT], the make up of an exception is what i'm defining here.
<Yoric[DT]> An exception is essentially a typed goto.
<JohnnyL> for example IF DIVIDE BY ZERO: Print error message=exception
<Yoric[DT]> (or a reduced call/cc, depending on your language :))
<Yoric[DT]> In that sentence, are you interested in raising the exception or in catching it ?
<Yoric[DT]> To raise an exception, you must first define that exception.
<JohnnyL> Yoric[DT], i still have to learn about reducing call/cc etc.
<Yoric[DT]> exception MyException of string;;
<xavierbot> exception MyException of string
<Yoric[DT]> this defines an exception, with constructor MyException and an argument of type string
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<JohnnyL> kool
<JohnnyL> looks good
<Yoric[DT]> now, you can raise it (which is the equivalent of throwing in C++, Java, etc., just more pacifistic :))
<Yoric[DT]> raise MyException "Hey, this was a division by zero !";;
<xavierbot> raise MyException "Hey, this was a division by zero !";;
<xavierbot> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<xavierbot> Characters 7-18:
<xavierbot> raise MyException "Hey, this was a division by zero !";;
<xavierbot> ^^^^^^^^^^^
<xavierbot> The constructor MyException expects 1 argument(s),
<xavierbot> but is here applied to 0 argument(s)
<Yoric[DT]> oops
<xavierbot> Characters 19-55:
<xavierbot> Warning X: this argument will not be used by the function.
<Yoric[DT]> raise (MyException "Hey, this was a division by zero !");;
<xavierbot> Exception: MyException "Hey, this was a division by zero !".
<Yoric[DT]> If you're interested in catching the exception, you should enclose the block inside a try ... with... construction.
<Yoric[DT]> let my_function = function 0 -> 0 | _ -> raise (MyException "I don't like numbers other than 0");;
<xavierbot> val my_function : int -> int = <fun>
<olleolleolle> JohnnyL: If you're on the lookout for a handy PDF to walk you through areas of OCaml, I am now digging http://www.cs.caltech.edu/courses/cs134/cs134b/book.pdf
<Yoric[DT]> let my_caller n = try print_int (my_function n) with MyException s -> print_string s;;
<xavierbot> val my_caller : int -> unit = <fun>
<olleolleolle> (Not trying to make you stop asking questions, JohnnyL just adding more info to the mix.)
<Yoric[DT]> (this "try with" is actually like "match with", you can pattern-match)
<Yoric[DT]> my_caller 0;;
<xavierbot> 0- : unit = ()
<Yoric[DT]> my_caller 1;;
<xavierbot> I don't like numbers other than 0- : unit = ()
* Yoric[DT] should have put endlines at the end of his strings.
<Yoric[DT]> Still, that's the idea.
<Yoric[DT]> As for "reduced call/cc", I meant "call/cc with less features".
<JohnnyL> thanks Yoric[DT] .
<JohnnyL> ok olleolleolle
<Yoric[DT]> np
<JohnnyL> what is call/cc?
<JohnnyL> thanks olleolleolle
<Yoric[DT]> Er... a mechanism somewhat more general than exception throwing :)
<Yoric[DT]> In Scheme.
<olleolleolle> call/cc is "continuations", IIRC (featured in Ruby, earlier everywhere with people with beards)
<Yoric[DT]> (and SML and some patched versions of OCaml)
<olleolleolle> Oh, cool.
<jonafan> my_function 1;;
<xavierbot> Exception: MyException "I don't like numbers other than 0".
<jonafan> bitch
<Yoric[DT]> hey !
<olleolleolle> (Trying to dig up a good Ruby link about call/cc, JohnnyL)
<Yoric[DT]> I think I saw some Camlp4 magic used to add call/cc into OCaml, too.
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<JohnnyL> oh last time i tried to pickup and grok continuations, i almost shit my pants.
<olleolleolle> Oh, the amazing Rubygarden wiki (of the old days) has an unspammed page about call/cc in ruby http://wiki.rubygarden.org/Ruby/page/show/Continuations
<flux> yoric[dt], camlp4-magic? that's interesting
<Yoric[DT]> I *think*.
<flux> all I've seen have been funky byte-code-only patches or monad-based versions
<flux> (not actually patches, but libraries)
<flux> I don't think the byte code library claimed being production quality, either
* Yoric[DT] reads the Ruby stuff and assumes that |x| is a "lambda x".
<JohnnyL> call/cc in ruby looks hellishly confusing
<mbishop> call/cc is confusing in general :P
<Yoric[DT]> Let me try and sum it up (please help me guys if I lose the thread somewhere :))
<olleolleolle> Yoric[DT]: |x| is "data you send to a block", like a binding to a name in a block.
<Yoric[DT]> (callcc some_symbol some_expression) end_of_current_expression
<Yoric[DT]> executes some_expression
<Yoric[DT]> but binds a closure to end_of_current_expression to some_symbol
<Yoric[DT]> In other words, when you apply some_symbol (), you actually execute end_of_current_expression .
<flux> I don't think callcc is really meant to be used as itself, but useful abstractions can be built upon it
<Yoric[DT]> Such as exceptions or most control-flow operators.
<Yoric[DT]> In particular, when you apply some_symbol (), you end the current block, which is how you can build an exception library.
<Yoric[DT]> Anyway, it's essentially goto + closures. Or something such.
* Yoric[DT] will cease his confusing explanations here.
<JohnnyL> oh
<JohnnyL> Yoric[DT], made it all better.
<JohnnyL> it's a essentially like a static variable.
<Yoric[DT]> er...
<Yoric[DT]> Not really.
<olleolleolle> call/cc: A typical lang feature to build other features upon. Good sum-up Yoric[DT]
<JohnnyL> in addition to an expression.
<Yoric[DT]> olleolleolle: thanks.
* olleolleolle is reading about OpenBerg. Interesting.
* Yoric[DT] wonders what he put in his signature.
* Yoric[DT] is pretty sure he didn't link to OpenBerg on FreeNode.
<olleolleolle> LtU had a page about you. It pointed only there.
<Yoric[DT]> :)
<Yoric[DT]> Unfortunately, I haven't had much time to work on OpenBerg since September.
<olleolleolle> And DPLB said sth about "Ambients", of which I know zip. Is that a term from mathematics? I'll ask Wikipedia.
<Yoric[DT]> It's a formalism comparable to lambda-calculus but for distributed computing.
<Yoric[DT]> It's interesting but I'm a bit disabused about it.
<Yoric[DT]> I've worked on more realistic/applicable/understandable stuff since then.
<olleolleolle> Chuckles.
<Yoric[DT]> Including making up one of my own :)
<Yoric[DT]> (ok, not fully making it up)
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<JohnnyL> where can I get a software VM for a language , without the language?
<JohnnyL> isn't it easy to build one?
<olleolleolle> Yoric[DT]: Stuff like the open-uri std library in Ruby - that adds http://... access to the File.open() incantation, that originally only handled filenames, and filehandles. That's what Ambient can reason about?
<JohnnyL> just convert vm op codes to asm op codes?
<Yoric[DT]> JohnnyL: only if they map to each other -- which is definitely not the case for many VMs.
<JohnnyL> yeah, i do the mapping
<Yoric[DT]> olleolleolle: <processing>
<Yoric[DT]> JohnnyL: I mean, have you looked at, say, JVML ?
<JohnnyL> no
<JohnnyL> i have been looking at hotspot.
<Yoric[DT]> Opcodes like invoke or invokevirtual are very high level and map quite difficultly to asm.
<JohnnyL> seems a nice compiler. but alot of the library calls are in c++.
<Yoric[DT]> olleolleolle: if I understand correctly what you mean, yes, ambients may be applicable there.
<olleolleolle> Yoric[DT]: Passing and dissolving ambient boundaries.
<Yoric[DT]> That is, ambients may be used to model "dropping" additional features inside functions/methods/whatever...
<olleolleolle> "drop into" or "drop (remove) from"?
<Yoric[DT]> new_features [ IN file_open_method ] | file_open_method [ ..... | ! OPEN new_features ]
<olleolleolle> "Agents have the capability to add/drop facts (i.e. predicates or propositions) to/from a knowledge unit and also modify its structure by adding new rules or eliminating existing ones. " API-calculus page on wp
<olleolleolle> Yoric[DT]: That's cool. Most Ruby folks would use Mixins to reach effects like that.
<Yoric[DT]> this may be read "there's some bunch of code/data called "new_features" and it wants to reach a place called "file_open_method" -- plus "file_open_method" wants to make its own anything called "new_features" that reaches it
<Yoric[DT]> (I forgot to put some actual code/data inside "new_features" but that's the general idea)
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, I guess it's somewhat related to mixins.
* Yoric[DT] is vaguely familiar with mixins, although perhaps not with the particular take on mixins in Ruby.
<Yoric[DT]> olleolleolle: what page did you just quote from wp ?
<olleolleolle> There is a very small "dialect" of Ruby which also features macros (RLisp). It can brag about not being String-dependent (eval()). After doing an add_method() (Aside: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/API-Calculus )
<jburd> So has someone been working on a wxWidgets port for ocaml?
<Yoric[DT]> oh, got it
<Yoric[DT]> jburd: I'm pretty sure I saw one, based on the Haskell port.
* Yoric[DT] has no clue about the status, of course.
<olleolleolle> Yoric[DT]: ...Ruby can be unstable about how to step OUT of that addition. RLisp does all this with trees, not just method body as Strings.
<olleolleolle> RLisp's the brainbaby of taw, a Polish longhair. Smart guy.
<olleolleolle> ( ANd http://t-a-w.blogspot.com/ is the website)
<Yoric[DT]> What do you mean "step out of addition" ?
<Yoric[DT]> Removing a feature ?
<Yoric[DT]> If that's the case, all the better, as in ambients, there's no robust way of doing that either :)
<olleolleolle> Yoric[DT]: Cancelling my "add_method()" call, yes. Removing that added feature.
<olleolleolle> There is a remove_method, but taw could point to some internals doing different things when using it (and add_method) in different contexts.
<olleolleolle> (Well, this is not a Ruby rant place. His weblog rules in that respect.) Ocaml-happy, instead.
<hcarty> jburd: There's a thread on the beginner's list where someone asked for library bindings requests... I don't have a link, but you could put in a request there
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<olleolleolle> Is there a go-to place (like a wiki, or a PlanetOcaml or the like) that I should subscribe to? I'm Nabble-RSSing the ocamlbeginner list.
<olleolleolle> http://www.nabble.com/Ocaml-Beginner-f14002.xml - imagine how simple it's become to unsub from things. http://www.nabble.com/Ocaml-Beginner-f14002.html is where you can subscribe.
<JohnnyL> Yoric[DT], i'm looking at JVM opcode and that map one to one with (sparc) opcodes (in this case).
<Yoric[DT]> Well, I'm pretty sure Sparc doesn't have an opcode for invoke or invokevirtual (or worse, invokedynamic).
<Yoric[DT]> That's object-oriented opcodes, the like of which I've never seen in CPUs.
<JohnnyL> Yoric[DT], i can't find them. what are they used for?
<JohnnyL> pointers to classes?
<Yoric[DT]> Calling methods (respectively virtual methods and polymethods).
<Yoric[DT]> (not sure about the last one)
<JohnnyL> well the source for javac is what I have. it has to be able to handle any part of the jvm.
<Yoric[DT]> indeed
<Yoric[DT]> But many parts, as you mention, are C++ calls rather than compiled-to-the-metal.
<JohnnyL> no actually.
<JohnnyL> much as it is actual streams of operand and operator mnemonic hex value bytes.
<JohnnyL> s/as/of
<Yoric[DT]> Well, good luck :)
<JohnnyL> ok
<JohnnyL> thanks
<JohnnyL> C++ has _asm you know.
<Yoric[DT]> I do.
<JohnnyL> actually for the 386 it appears to be just bit shifted c/c++ functions.
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<JohnnyL> oh well, register under the jvm maps to a regular int.
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