mbishop changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<psnively> Use omake?
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<pango> palomer: if you want to stick with make/Makefile solution 1. write generic rules 2. use ocamldep to generate dependancies http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/manual027.html
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<psnively> What pango said.
<psnively> Or use OCamlMakefile.
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<palomer> is it possible to get a stack trace when an exception is thrown?
<palomer> im using lablgtk, so the exception isn't reaching the toplevel
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<palomer> does ocaml have polymorphic recursion?
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<darinm> I don't think so
<darinm> at least it didn't used to support it, I'm pretty sure
<darinm> but I think you can kind of accomplish it using objects somehow
<darinm> I don't remember the details
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<Yoric[DT]> gmmmhhhh....
<Yoric[DT]> Now, I am faced with behaviours of ExtLib which contradict the standard library.
* Yoric[DT] wonders which one he should favor, if any.
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<flx> such as?
<Yoric[DT]> List.find
<Yoric[DT]> * in the standard library, this may raise [Not_found]
<Yoric[DT]> * in ExtLib, it accepts one additional argument of type [exn] and may raise that exception
<Yoric[DT]> * I'd like to make it return an option
<flx> well, optional arguments can be a mess.. are they used in ExtLib's find?
<flx> if the new library is revamped so that option types are used everywhere, maybe the third option would be consistent
<flx> is the new library intended to replace the standard library or to be used side-by-side?
<Yoric[DT]> replace
<Yoric[DT]> It contains most of the standard library (although sometimes with slightly renamed module names), among other things.
<Yoric[DT]> s/module names/modules/
<Yoric[DT]> As for exceptionless error management, I am still of two minds.
<Yoric[DT]> Perhaps I should leave exception-based functions as they are and put exceptionless error-management inside a standard submodule of each module.
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<Yoric[DT]> Nice.
<Yoric[DT]> One of my groups of students has managed to write a nice little fractal-drawing program with OCaml and SDL.
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<bluestorm> with different kind of fractals ?
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<Yoric[DT]> Mandelbrot on the left, Julia on the right.
<bluestorm> with the arbitray constant determined by mouse position ? :]
<bluestorm> (and funny coloration choices ? :p )
<Yoric[DT]> yes and no
<Yoric[DT]> (yes for the mouse, no for the colors, it's only in gradients of gray)
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<bluestorm> you can do nice things with black/white only ( http://bluestorm.info/pictures/fractales/mandelbrot/reltim.png )
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<Yoric[DT]> Actually, theirs is nicer :)
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<pango> http://complexification.net/ has very nice fractal stuff
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<Yoric[DT]> Time for a break.
<Yoric[DT]> Cheers.
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<orbitz> hey RobertFischer
<RobertFischer> orbitz: Hey.
<orbitz> hwog oes?
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, it is time for you to hire a typist.
<orbitz> hrm
<orbitz> i'm really poor though
<orbitz> i'm payign for rent in 2 cities and i can barely afford rent in 1 city
<Smerdyakov> Well, gosh, then you'd better start providing more value to society in exchange for money!
<orbitz> i guess you're right
<Smerdyakov> Though only paying for rent in 1 city is probably a good start.
<orbitz> i'm trying, however my other apt is a 4 hour drive away and the laws don't require teh landlord to put any effort into finding a replacement so i'm pretty much F'd
<psnively> ==
<psnively> Eh? Were you not renting month-to-month?
<orbitz> i was not
<orbitz> i am attempting to break my lease
<psnively> Ah. Well, that, as they say, is a horse of a different color.
<orbitz> a crappy horse
* psnively shrugs. "I'm guessing that you signed the contract."
<Smerdyakov> Can't you find your own replacement?
<psnively> ==Smerdyakoov again.
<Smerdyakov> I did that at my prior apartment.
<orbitz> i found several replacements. however, despite teh fact thata broker has to do almost nothing in this they still want a considerable amount of money and there is no way i can get a replacement withotu going through the broker
<Smerdyakov> The building I live in now is expensive enough that they let residents bolt with 30 days notice upon paying an extra month's rent. :)
<RobertFischer> orbitz: Where are you located?
<orbitz> i am currently in baltimore. my money-sucking apartment is in manhattan though
<RobertFischer> Smerdyakov: That's a nice way to work it.
<RobertFischer> Hah. New England suckers.
<orbitz> the contract states i have to find someone else or pay rent up until it is rented
<RobertFischer> Wait, like open-ended?
<RobertFischer> Seriously?
<orbitz> i found a half dozen people up until the broker said "oh, and you owe me X" and then they bolted
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, how much is X?
<orbitz> a months rent
<orbitz> RobertFischer: no, up until my lease is up
<orbitz> which is in october
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, then you had better pay it if you find you've spent a month wringing your hands over this. :D
<Smerdyakov> I'm paying an extra month's rent to move out of my current place. It's worth it for how much I'll save living in a cheaper city.
<orbitz> i offered to however the managmetn company decided (a day AFTER they were supposed to get back to me) that one gurantor for the best candidate was insufficient and they wanted another
<Smerdyakov> I recommend thinking the same way.
<orbitz> i am
<orbitz> however i've already paid over a months rent tryign to get rid of it
<orbitz> an di don't live in the city
<orbitz> i cannot afford another months rent AND pay for the broekr fee at this poitn
<RobertFischer> Well, then just stop paying. What's your landlord going to do -- try to squeeze blood from a stone?
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, have you been living paycheck-to-paycheck or something?
<orbitz> currently i am
<RobertFischer> Speaking as a once and future landlord, you're a dick, and if he sends you to collections and ruins your credit, you deserve it. But if you really just don't have the money, just let it go.
<orbitz> actually i'm living subpaycheck to subpaycheck right now
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<Smerdyakov> If you weren't when you had a job, then you should have had an emergency fund ready for situations like this.
<orbitz> Smerdyakov: ideally
<Smerdyakov> So you were living beyond your means, eh? Well, now you've learned a lesson!
<RobertFischer> Yeah, it's a sucky lesson, but time to bolt. Chances are that your landlord isn't really going to do much. Maybe hand you over to a collection agency for a fraction of what you're worth, and they'll annoy you.
<RobertFischer> But it's not like they're going to throw you in a debtor's prison.
<Smerdyakov> If you have trouble finding someone to take over an apartment in Manhattan, you must be doing something wrong. You should work full-time on the bureaucratic aspects of it.
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<orbitz> Smerdyakov: *I* did not have any trouble finding people, hwever i was not made aware of a broker fee that would be erquired so once they got to the broker tehre was another fee the rentors were not made aware of
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, you should be willing to pay it yourself at this point.
<orbitz> willing and able are different
* psnively mumbles mumbles "sunk cost" rasm frasm.
<psnively> orbitz: pay it out of a high interest short term loan that you then prepay when you get your new gig.
<psnively> Time to get creative.
<orbitz> my new gig is grad school. not particilarly high paying
<RobertFischer> Dude, you went to grad school without negotiating your lease? Ouch.
<RobertFischer> Life lesson.
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, not true. Good CS grad students who work the system right make more than almost all Americans.
<psnively> I think leasing, at all, was unwise in this context, but that's easy for me to say.
* psnively shrugs.
<psnively> And sure doesn't help now.
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, remember the two main pillars: 1) you want a fellowship from the military and 2) you want to intern at Microsoft Research every summer. :)
<orbitz> RobertFischer: at the time i physically moved out of my apatment I had found several peopel who were going tough the paperwork to take my apartment. however the broker fee hit themby surprise and they decided not to
<psnively> Wait... this is the ocaml channel... Smerdyakov just left Jane Street, which is in NY... take Smerdyakov's job!
<orbitz> hah
<orbitz> i'm not in NY
<orbitz> i moved out of NY to baltimore
<psnively> You'd hardly be the only commuter from Baltimore to NY. ;-)
<orbitz> clearly i did not handle this in the most financially wise way, but here i am so all the "should have" lectures in the worl won't fix it
<psnively> Or just telecommute.
<postalchris> orbitz: NYers should be prepared for ridiculous brokers' fees
<orbitz> postalchris: i advertised it under no-broker-fee though
<psnively> ==orbitz. I am actually trying to come up with reasonable suggestions. So far, the "pay the broker fee using a short-term loan" is still the best I have.
<orbitz> it's kind of s cam. I found the plaec, showed it, etc. i cannot do a credit check though and fill out some paper work
<orbitz> i foudn the people*
<Smerdyakov> I am so glad to be getting out of the world of NYC real estate.
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<psnively> ==Smerdyakov yet again.
<orbitz> i also cannot get a new broker because the managmetn company goes throuhg this one and any broker i found would have to go throu her
<psnively> orbitz: One reason it's better to buy, but that's another one that might not be all that helpful (yet).
<orbitz> and the one i'm rquierd to go through does not see me as much of a priority
<Smerdyakov> Fingers crossed for major real estate crash in NYC, everyone!
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, have you tried contacting a renters' advocacy group?
<psnively> Smerdyakov, I'm happy it's happening in LA. :-)
<orbitz> no, do you think they could help me?
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, yes.
<orbitz> how do you think they could help? this is all pretty much a crappy situation i created
<Smerdyakov> I think the cost of a phone call is low enough that it's worth making.,
<orbitz> if i simply cannot afford to pay i suppose my landlord could goto court, the worst he could probably do is ruin my credit as I own only a cat and a laptop
<psnively> orbitz: At the very least, they could help you point out that you were unaware of the broker fee when you, in good faith, claimed "no broker fee" to the replacement renters.
<RobertFischer> orbitz: That's my angle. But Smerdyakov's suggestion is probably the best. :)
<psnively> Dude, if you actually believe that you "own" a cat, you have bigger problems than I realized. ;-)
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<orbitz> :)
<psnively> BTW, if the credit thing really does become a problem, I recommend Consumer Credit Counseling Services wholeheartedly.
<psnively> I bought a house in LA county. five and a half years ago. I thought I'd NEVER be able to buy a house in LA.
<Smerdyakov> psnively, why do you want to live in LA?
<psnively> Smerdyakov: Because my wife and stepson do. ;-)
<hcarty> orbitz: Where are you going to grad school? The school and/or department may have something to help you out
<orbitz> johns hopkins
<orbitz> i shoulda joined the military
<psnively> Demonstrating that you can develop effective decision support software could make you quite a bit of money.
<psnively> Hell, demonstrating that you can develop INeffective decision support software could make you a lot of money.
<Smerdyakov> Demonstrating that you can develop software can make you a lot of money.
<psnively> Dammit.
<psnively> ==Smerdyakov
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<Smerdyakov> I'm apartment-hunting in Boston starting this weekend. I'm hoping for an easy time, with all the students vacating.
<psnively> Yep.
<psnively> Smerdyakov: eecs, right?
<Smerdyakov> psnively, what do you mean?
<psnively> eecs at Harvard, sorry.
<orbitz> i there a specific renter advocacy group for new york city?
<psnively> You're going to work with, that is.
<psnively> Ynot and all that.
<Smerdyakov> psnively, I don't think there's an entity called "EECS" at Harvard.
<psnively> I could be misremembering, certainly.
<Smerdyakov> psnively, there's the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, with no formal divisions within it.
<psnively> Ah, there you go.
<Smerdyakov> The total number of faculty in that school is less than the number of faculty in CMU's School of Computer Science.
<psnively> Good things come in small packages?
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<psnively> So I'm curious what you think of their work on Hoare Type Theory, and their idea of a shallow embedding in Coq.
<psnively> vs. e.g. a deep embedding of some other logic that might be even better for tackling imperative, etc. programming.
<psnively> Or is tackling imperative programming an anti-goal?
<Smerdyakov> I don't think the deep vs. shallow thing is deep here.
<psnively> OK.
<Smerdyakov> You can define the monadic sub-language with a deep embedding pretty trivially.
<orbitz> Smerdyakov: what do you think of typeclasses? Helium seems to think the cost outweightst he benefit (until they can figure out how to maek godo eror messages)
<psnively> Does a deep embedding not make it more difficult to apply your approach of a foundational compiler to the CIC and proving equivalence by taking advantage of the CIC reductions?
<Smerdyakov> The approach they've taken is influenced strongly by a suggestion I made in 2006, so I couldn't have _that_ much disagreement with it. :)
<psnively> Well, yes; the overall connection is quite clear.
<Smerdyakov> psnively, I don't follow. You can't reason about compilers with a shallow embedding unless you formalize all of CIC, and that's way beyond what I've done.
<psnively> Then what is Ynot doing with a shallow embedding of HTT?
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<Smerdyakov> They modify Coq to compile it.
<Smerdyakov> And shallow embeddings are always easier to work with when you aren't proving meta-theorems.
<psnively> Ah, right. They aren't using Coq to prove equivalences between compilers; they're extracting a compiler from Coq.
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<psnively> (I hope I got that right.)
<orbitz> thanks for the tips btw
<Smerdyakov> orbitz, I like type classes.
<psnively> orbitz: All teasing and financial ranting aside, good luck--the situation sucks.
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<orbitz> let's hope the investment in school pays off in the nd
<orbitz> I kind of wish ocaml would introduce something so we can overload operators. I guess that camlp4 hign for mathematical expressions will be good enough
<psnively> gcaml?
<Yoric[DT]> Does that still exist ?
<RobertFischer> orbitz: Operator overloading is Teh Eevil.
<Yoric[DT]> Other than that, Nicolas Pouillard's webpage has something on that.
<Yoric[DT]> Plus you can perform almost-operators-overloading using custom operators and open...in... .
<psnively> Deriving?
<psnively> That doesn't actually deal with operator overloading. Nevermind.
<orbitz> i guess the osp idea gievs you the benefit of operator overlaodign with the exlicit knowledg eof what operator
<psnively> I wish someone would glue all of: OCaml, gcaml, JoCaml, and MetaOCaml together. Oh, and add Oleg's delimited continuations.
<orbitz> that's a flame war beggign to happen
<orbitz> they have enough polar opinions just for camlp4 suggestiosn
<Yoric[DT]> psnively: and Scala
<psnively> Yoric[DT]: I'm just talking about OCaml dialects.
<Yoric[DT]> So am I :)
<Yoric[DT]> (just trolling)
<psnively> I am thinking of going to the lift-off unconference, though...
<Yoric[DT]> What's that ?
* Yoric[DT] takes a look.
<psnively> I like Scala and lift.
<psnively> But I should take a closer look at Ocsigen, too.
<bluestorm> i've got a challenge :-'
<bluestorm> is it possible to syntaxically transform any recursive function into a equivalent non-recursive one ?
<bluestorm> i've got something working for pure (no side-effect) one-parameter recursive functions
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<pango_> does it work on ackermann function?
<bluestorm> yes
<bluestorm> (uncurryfied)
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<pango_> ah yes, I almost forgot it takes two arguments
<mbishop> bluestorm: I believe it's possible in theory
<bluestorm> what i've done so far is to replace my function by a "derecursified equivalent", eg. let ref fac = function 0 -> 1 | n -> n * fac (n - 1) => let fac f = function 0 -> 1 | n -> n * f (n - 1)
<bluestorm> and then create a hella ugly function that is capable of evaluating those derecursified equivalent whithout using the point-fix operator
<bluestorm> (the simple recursive one, that is)
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<bluestorm> the syntaxic transformation from the recursive function to the derecursified one is dead simple, and the only one used, but i'm not sure this approach is powerful enough
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<jonafan> how do you write a programming language?
<struk_atwork2> jonafan: very carefully
* jonafan is now taking notes
<struk_atwork2> jonafan, do you plan on implementing one? If so, I request that you allow for A + B to have meaning in the language if A and B are matrices
<jonafan> i have an idea
<hcarty> struk_atwork2: There is an OSP to handle that situation
<hcarty> for OCaml, of course
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> let (+) = Matrix.add
<bluestorm> voila
<bluestorm> :-'
<rodge> lol
<struk_atwork2> hcarty, OSP ? Ah yes the summer project. I know there is one...that's why I jokingly brought it up. I am actually hoping to be significant contributor to qtcaml
<bluestorm> you too ?
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<hcarty> struk_atwork2: I have a very very simple extension to the Float.() example on the camlp4 wiki if you are interested
<hcarty> Matrix.(a + b) to Matrix.add a b
<bluestorm> did they answered your email, btw ?
<bluestorm> -ed
<struk_atwork2> hcarty, sure I'm interested.
<hcarty> bluestorm: Mine?
<bluestorm> yes, i thought you tried to contact the OSP guys about your extension
<hcarty> struk_atwork2: http://ocaml.pastewith.us/71 -- I think this is the latest revision. I'll check against my local copy of the code.
<hcarty> bluestorm: No, nothing yet. I did email them though.
<tsuyoshi> so.. can someone explain why qt is better than gtk? I have heard this a few times but I don't know anything about qt
<struk_atwork2> tsuyoshi, not the right chan for that. But it can boil down to signal vs slots, C vs C++ and who does a better job of being cross platform
<tsuyoshi> I tried googling for "gtk versus qt" but all I found was license arguments
<struk_atwork2> tsuyoshi, sorry, signal / slots vs callbacks
<tsuyoshi> signals versus callbacks? what's the difference?
<Yoric[DT]> pre-processing, iirc
<tsuyoshi> qt does preprocessing?
<Yoric[DT]> yep
<flx> gtkmm, the c++ wrapper, also has a signal concept
<tsuyoshi> well gtk uses signals
<flx> yeah, text-based
<flx> right?
* jonafan thinks gtk is better
<flx> as horrific qt's preprocessing is, atleast it gives some static guarantees we've learned to love ;)
<tsuyoshi> flx: uhh.. I guess? I haven't used the c interface in years, so it sound vaguely familiar
<tsuyoshi> sounds
<Yoric[DT]> Is there any ocamldoc pro around here ?
<struk_atwork2> jonafan, I'm a qt fan boy, but really its a preference thing.
<tsuyoshi> what kind of static guarantees?
<flx> like, a signal exists when you refer to it?
<Yoric[DT]> I have a problem with lots of "Warning: Module or module type bla not found", although I do have the source code for everything.
<jonafan> also, kde 4 was the biggest disappointment in the history of linux
<jonafan> okay! time to go do some work!
<tsuyoshi> btw.. could there possibly be a right channel for asking about qt versus gtk? I mean if you go to #gtk+ or #qt and ask.. I have a feeling there would be no useful information
<bluestorm> tsuyoshi: go on #qt and ask for gtk advantages over Qt
<Yoric[DT]> rwmjones: I'm heinously renaming two of your ExtLib functions.
<rwmjones> erm, which ones?
<rwmjones> renaming extlib functions is a bad idea, coz people use them
<tsuyoshi> I basically started using gtk because of 1) the qt license is weird and 2) when I set up computers for nontechnical people, they get less confused by gnome compared to kde
<tsuyoshi> both of which have nothing to do with which toolkit is better from a programming standpoint
<struk_atwork2> tsuyoshi, to be honest, I truly think Qt4 is technically superior, but you really should fiddle with both and see what floats your boat
<Yoric[DT]> rwmjones: takewhile => take_while, dropwhile => drop_while
* Yoric[DT] could leave the old names around, of course.
<tsuyoshi> oh.. plus 3) I hate c++
<tsuyoshi> actually I think that might supercede reason number 2
<tsuyoshi> but the object system in gtk is kind of clumsy
<struk_atwork2> has anyone seen qtcaml or migccxml programmers in this channel?
<tsuyoshi> hrm.. didn't someone just say they were working on qtcaml?
<bluestorm> struk_atwork2: i don't think so
<struk_atwork2> bluestorm, ok thanks
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<RobertFischer> rwmjones: ping -- can't seem to connect to Postgres when compiling CocanWiki. See mod_caml list e-mail.
<RobertFischer> (If I can clear this, I think I'm in the home stretch.)
<struk_Atwork> hcarty, very cool stuff..just looked over your code and the camlp4 project
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<Yoric[DT]> "Illegal permutation of structure fields" ?
<Yoric[DT]> That's a new one.
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<struk_Atwork> Yoric[DT], maybe it's not an abelian group?
<Yoric[DT]> Now, it's just a module...
<Yoric[DT]> s/Now/No/
<struk_Atwork> Yoric[DT], I was just joking. what code is causing the error? can you paste bin
<Yoric[DT]> No, I'm frustrated at taking so much time to find out what was wrong in your sentence :)
<Yoric[DT]> I had reordered fields between a module and a signature.
<struk_Atwork> Yoric[DT], that makes sense
<Yoric[DT]> mmmmhhh....
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<hcarty> struk_Atwork: The OSP project should be much more generally useful, but this does 70-80% of what I am looking for. I emailed the student and mentor to see if they have any further implementation details in place.
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<struk_Atwork> hcarty, I'm not clear as to what the fundamental differences of their project and camlp4 is
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<hcarty> Their project will be implemented using camlp4 (mostly, I think)
<hcarty> Likely with some extra library support as well.
<hcarty> The camlp4 syntax extension I linked earlier is meant to provide a subset of their final product because I read their proposal and thought "Cool!"
<hcarty> struk_Atwork: Have you used a camlp4 extension before? I have not relied on them much because they can cause problems with OCaml 3.10.x+'s toplevel
<hcarty> And I use the toplevel a lot
<struk_Atwork> hcarty, nope just heard of it today
<hcarty> But, as you said, being able to use (+) for matrices and other data structures is very appealing, particularly if you can keep OCaml's type inference in place
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<struk_Atwork> hcarty, indeed. its pretty important to natural express the wealth of math formulae out there
<struk_Atwork> *naturally
<hcarty> I am really looking forward to Fortress, but I imagine that is several years away from being ready for general consumption.
<struk_Atwork> hcarty, no idea what that is! should I be excited as well?
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<hcarty> struk_Atwork: http://0ok.org/code/ocaml/example-camlp4.tar.gz is an example using the extension I pasted earlier along with a few others. If you have OCaml 3.10.x then "ocamlbuild test.native" will build it
<struk_Atwork> hcarty, thanks! will try it when I leave the office and therefore make it back to linux land
<hcarty> My pleasure. I hope it ends up being informative/useful. It has minimal commenting as I just hacked it together as a test, but it will hopefully be usable. Ask if any of it doesn't make sense.
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<Yoric[DT]> grrrr.....
* Yoric[DT] is tired of ocamldoc.
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* RobertFischer kicks Postgres.
<RobertFischer> Take my password! Take it!
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<RobertFischer> Where's the apache module to be found?
<RobertFischer> rwmjones: Any lead on where the apache module is to be found? The Makefile is looking for apache.cma, which doesn't exist.
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