mbishop changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<palomer> yminsky, thanks for releasing core!
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<yminsky> palomer: you're welcome.
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<rodge> damn, bin_prot doesn't build with ubuntu's packages :/
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<det> rodge, 8.04 ?
<rodge> yup
<rodge> think their ocaml packages are slightly old
<rodge> their older than the ones on my debian machine anyway, and it builds fine on that
<rodge> s/their/they're
<det> Hmm, I just tried and got a Parse error.
<rodge> ya
<rodge> same
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<asmanur> Hello, I have a problem about variants. Is it possible to do a thing like that : http://pastebin.be/10962 ?
<palomer> good question
<palomer> I cant figure out why that doesn't work
* palomer goes to bed
<palomer> night!
<asmanur> good night :p
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<flx> is there a way to tell that a Bigarray object can no longer be accessed?
<flx> I'm thinking of converting a pointer to a library data block into a Bigarray, but if the data later goes away, I would like the ocaml Bigarray object stop messing around with it..
<flx> the other option would be to copy the data twice
<flx> and the third one wold be to have linear types in ocaml :-)
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<Yoric[DT]> hi
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<tsuyoshi> flx: there is, kinda..
<flx> tsuyoshi, with monads? but if I wanted to use Bigarray.set etc directly with it, I would need to write quite a lot..
<tsuyoshi> there's a flag you can set so it doesn't free the memory on collection iirc
<flx> oh, that's not the problem actually: it is _me_ who is releasing the memory
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<flx> infact at the moment I'm just giving a pointer to stack back to ocaml :)
<tsuyoshi> exactly.. you don't want the bigarray code to release it
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<flx> it doesn't. but I have a need to release it. because the third party library (sdl in this case) will do it at some undetermined point anyway.
<flx> btw, something interesting I found when looking at calling ocaml callbacks from a separate C-thread: http://alan.petitepomme.net/cwn/2005.03.08.html#9
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<flx> but yes, now I can generate audio with SDL's Mixer interface in ocaml \o/
<flx> I wonder the OCamlSDL guys (after finishing the patch..) are interesting in updates. the last release was from year 2005..
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<flx> not like ocamlsdl had broken down or anything, but it doesn't support for example that effect mixer interface, not does it support panning
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<tsuyoshi> what do you mean by linear types?
<flx> instances of that type cannot be copied
<tsuyoshi> huh? why would you want that?
<flx> let's say I have a callback: val callback : value -> unit
<flx> I want to make sure it doesn't make a copy of that value
<tsuyoshi> why?
<flx> because it might be a pointer to stack or something, and will cause unimaginable horrors if it is accessed afterwards
<tsuyoshi> oh.. then you should copy it off the stack
<flx> also resources can make use of it
<flx> it can statically guarantee you will not write to a closed file
<flx> with_output_file doesn't do that, because you can copy the file descriptor from the function
<tsuyoshi> oh, I guess that would be useful
<flx> I could copy the stuff, yes, but there can be cases where copying can become slow, due to large amounts of data
<tsuyoshi> large amounts of data on the stack is usually a bad idea to begin with
<flx> well, it might not be in stack
<flx> let's say you have a pointer to network card buffer, which is being fed at one gigabyte/s ;)
<tsuyoshi> hmm.. uncopyable.. I am thinking of how to implement that
<flx> it would need to be an extension to the type system
<tsuyoshi> yeah
<flx> I think another thing with linear types is that they cannot go out of scope
<flx> unless the return type is the linear type, naturally
<flx> so if you have a function (linear -> unit), it must call some function that accepts linear in, but returns unit
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<flx> so it may even be able to guarantee the file is closed
<tsuyoshi> hrm.. so I guess you have 2 operations that you have to check
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<tsuyoshi> there's assignment (arrays, structures, objects) and then returns
<tsuyoshi> and the returns can't contain anything uncopyable
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<flx> perhaps it will be helpful to read a paper on linear types first
<flx> it would be helpful to me :)
<tsuyoshi> doesn't seem that complicated really
<tsuyoshi> why do they call it "linear"?
<bluestorm> i think they come from "linear logic"
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<tsuyoshi> maybe I better implement it myself before someone decides to use the confusing "linear" keyword
<flx> unique typing is related, but they say there's a difference :)
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<flx> ok, what am I doing wrong when my program stalls at caml_leave_blocking_section?
<flx> the whole fragment would be caml_enter_blocking_section(); SDL_SemWait(mixer_callback_init); write(1, "!", 1); caml_leave_blocking_section(); write(1, "c", 1);, so I know I can see '!' but not 'c'
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<flx> hm, sdl's mutex/semaphore system seems weird: they have SDL_SemPost and SDL_SemWait, but SDL_mutexP and SDL_mutexV
<flx> I've always associated P and V being operations on semaphores
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<flx> I have much head of these people: https://gna.org/projects/funk/ - writing a kernel in ocaml
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> isn't the project dead ?
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<flx> could be, last updated 2005
<flx> hm, and my previous was _intended_ to say: "I haven't much heard of these people"
<bluestorm> :D
<bluestorm> it really looked like some idiomatic way to say "hey, they're doing a courageous job"
<bluestorm> (the "of" was a bit strange, though)
<bluestorm> flx: you could ask smimou, seems he was part of the band :-'
<smimou> yep
<smimou> flx: the project is mostly dead
<smimou> but if you want to revive it you're welcome!
<smimou> basically it got too complicated and time-consuming when we decided to switch to a microkernel architecture
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<flux> tsuyoshi, there's some discussion mentioning linear typing in a passing on comp.lang.functional, subject "Re: Combining mutable objects with const references"
<flux> (I'm at <5272f6cd-47c8-47b1-a467-bb36c281654e@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>)
<flux> (reading, that is)
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<orbitz> hai
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<jdroid-> hai, i can haz programmar fwens!?
<orbitz> noes
<palomer> it works!
<orbitz> finally!
<orbitz> your polymorphic variance nonsense?
<orbitz> variants*
<orbitz> the toilets here are too high, my feet pracicly dangle which makes relaxing difficult
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* palomer high fives orbitz
* orbitz does a jumping chestbmp with palomer
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<jdroid-> i have a friend who's feet do dangle. i noticed when he used a stall next to me once. i check shoes to see if i have poopy friends around.
<jdroid-> on this wonderful topic, i like talking about perl with friends at work in the bathroom. conversations about perl belong there, you know?
<orbitz> they help my flow
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<orbitz> lauren's water smells like stink bombs because the well is f'd
<orbitz> showering here is mint
<jdroid-> i'm so glad i don't have smelly water. but my cats hair finally clogged the drain.
<orbitz> atleast it doesn't stick to you
<orbitz> you don't smell after
<jdroid-> you know what i do when i smell? i start being awesome. true story.
<orbitz> awesome at smelling atleast
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<mgsloan> hey, are there any good tutorials for learning ocaml, with previous haskell knowledge? It'd be nice to just learn by comparison
<orbitz> not to my knowledge.
<jdroid-> is your knowledge based in haskell or language concepts?
<mgsloan> well, haskell is the main functional language I know
<mgsloan> orbitz - alright, well, maybe I'll write one :)
<jdroid-> Work through www.ocaml-tutorial.org and detail your thoughts and that'd be a good start. :)
<orbitz> ocaml will support a number of the haskell features but you'll be solving many problems in a less functonal way mos tlikely
<mgsloan> yeah, I know that ocaml is less pure and such
<mgsloan> higher order modules sound fun
<orbitz> a lot of hting slike file iteration are done with side effects and refernces that you can alter
<orbitz> although you could probably change tha to CPS pretty nicely
<bluestorm_> mgsloan: afaik there isn't
<orbitz> hey bluestorm_
<bluestorm_> mgsloan: you may be interested in http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/u3-ocaml/index.html
<bluestorm_> quite theoretical-minded and quick to the subject
<mgsloan> oh, cool. that does look good, thanks
<orbitz> jdroid-: amy smart movies is on
<jdroid-> boners
* palomer also came from a haskell background, about 4 months ago
<mgsloan> ah cool. I don't think I'm really going to move from haskell, in truth, but it'd be cool to know ocaml. I'm also interviewing at MS in a few days, and I figured it'd be cool to have some F# exp, :P
<jdroid-> MS?
<orbitz> does Jon Harrop work for MS?
<orbitz> or is he just in lov with F#
<orbitz> jdroid-: Microsoft, you might ahve heard of them
<jdroid-> orbitz: you haven't been out of finance that long. MS = Morgan Stanley too, foo.
<mgsloan> yeah, not exactly my company of choice, but it's just a summer internship
<orbitz> jdroid-: but MS made F# :)
<bluestorm_> orbitz: Jon Harrop seels F# material
<jdroid-> guess i was just too optimistic of firms adopting neat languages.
<orbitz> bluestorm_: he prevents people from seeign F# material?
<bluestorm_> he has sold OCaml before, and still do, but F# has a much wider audience (ugly C# users wanting to taste the functionnal goodness) so promoting F# was clearly a good commercial choice
<bluestorm_> hmm
<bluestorm_> orbitz: sells :]
<orbitz> that makes more sense
<orbitz> well let's hope MS doenst turn F# into a pile of junk
<orbitz> i've heard anumber of peopel comment htat their plans already seem to be too ambitious
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<orbitz> the GC on .net is supposed to be superior to INRIA's ocaml inter though right?
<bluestorm_> hm
<orbitz> (that's why jane st is financing the concurrent gc project?)
<jdroid-> i thoguht jane st. was sponsoring the creation of a new gc for ocaml
<jdroid-> oh.. haha
<bluestorm_> hm
<bluestorm_> you shouldn't think so imho
<orbitz> the mailing list seems dividing on teh subject
<bluestorm_> Jane St. is sponsoring a pair of students interested in getting their hands dirty with the GC mechanism, with a long-term project to allow the use of a new (parallel ?) GC
<orbitz> concurren tand parrallel GC teh same?
<bluestorm_> i don't know this topic enough
<bluestorm_> i think it isn't
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<bluestorm_> orbitz: actually
<bluestorm_> John Harrop (the main proponent for a parallel/concurrent GC now) himself said that forking was a quite good strategy in some (quite common) situations
<orbitz> strategy for what?
<bluestorm_> to have good performances with multicores computer
<orbitz> well single cores probably won't exist much longer
<mbishop_> Why does the OCaml Forge's snippet section not include "OCaml" as an option for the language? :/
<jdroid-> orbitz: what about portable devices?
<orbitz> that would be a new ocaml impl
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<jdroid-> ok
<orbitz> like you don't run your concurrent gc hotspot jvm on yoru cellphoen
<bluestorm_> hm
<bluestorm_> most cellphones are quite capable these days (in terms of CPU/memory)
<orbitz> i mean, i don't know if a concurrent gc is good and why. but if is good because it work sbetter in multicore i don't think an impl that does not take advantage of multicore cpu's has much life left in it
<bluestorm_> i don't see why you couldn't use the main ocaml impl. on them
<Optikal_> There might a shift from multi-core into having separate processors, like NVidia Tesla
<jdroid-> bluestorm_: an iphone is running os x after all. people crack it and run terminals with ssh and everything
<bluestorm_> orbitz: if you use fork(), you can have numerous processes at the OS level, and let the OS run them on every core/processor you've got
<jdroid-> an iphone ocaml implementation would be pretty neat.
<bluestorm_> jdroid-: iirc there is work ongoing in that direction
<bluestorm_> (i've heard of an iphone port some months ago)
<jdroid-> orbitz: i'm considering releasing kasper
<jdroid-> brilliant
<orbitz> bluestorm_: if that is the best solution then that is fine, i'm simply saying if people think a concurrent gc has a lo of advantages that it is wroth making perhaps it is better to make it the main branch, then you can use processe if yous o desire and hav ea concurrent gc
<orbitz> jdroid-: sweet
<jdroid-> i wonder if the jail breaks are still needed now that the dev kit is released
<Optikal_> OCaml for scientists is $165 yikes
<jdroid-> huh?
<bluestorm_> orbitz: wich ones ?
<orbitz> which ones what?
<bluestorm_> with Unix.fork (), each process use it's own GC
<bluestorm_> wich advantages
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<orbitz> bluestorm_: i don't know. i'm not saying there are any, but that peopel in the mailing list seem to think there are, and if they are right perhaps a branch is no the best startegy
<bluestorm_> and actually, having one GC per process is quite good because the GC is simpler that a parallel/concurrent GC, thus simpler, less overhead, and the performances scale very well
<orbitz> bluestorm_: i don't know enough to comment much mor ethan i halready have
<mbishop_> doesn't coThreads also avoid the problem?
<orbitz> is th eunderlying jocaml impl threads or doing some multiplexing trick?
<flux> bluestorm_, but you can't really use fork a lot
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<flux> most system administrators wouldn't be happy with 1000 processes
<flux> and it takes waay more time than approaches that don't need to deal with the OS
<bluestorm_> why do you need 1000 processes anyway ?
<flux> perhaps you want to have 1000 separate flows of control.
<flux> not that unreasonable to me.
<bluestorm_> then you can use threads
<bluestorm_> you could, say, use 10 processes of 100 threads each
<flux> yes, well if it's all the same, I'd rather have it abstracted away :). but yes, ocaml too could theoretically do massive amounts of threads with its self-implemented threading (that works only with byte code, though)
<bluestorm_> as mbishop_ said, coThreads may ease that by virtually making the difference between threads and processes transparent to the programmer
<flux> how does cothreads work anyway?
<flux> isn't it essentially a fork with message passing anyway?-o
<jdroid-> i need hot fries
<orbitz> andy's?
<jdroid-> yup
<jdroid-> bbiab :) o_O HAPPY
<mbishop_> cothreads uses the regular Threads module, but you can change it's "engine"
<orbitz> doe sit use OS threads?
<bluestorm_> and use processes under the hood
<bluestorm_> orbitz: you can
<bluestorm_> i'm not sure however that you can use a mix of threads and processes right now
<flux> in theory one program would only need n threads from the os, where n would be the number of hardware threads
<bluestorm_> but that should be doable
<flux> is cothreads still being developed?
<bluestorm_> ask Zheng Li
<orbitz> coming from erlang, i like a lot of 'threads' that do very little, is that possible currently in ocaml?
<orbitz> by a lot i mean thousands
<flux> orbitz, you could have cps based platform, so it would use no "real threads" at all
<flux> (I am actually writing something like that at work)
<orbitz> cool
<flux> it appears to handle atleast four thousand "threads"; most of the time everything is blocking, of course
<bluestorm_> i think Lwt can do that too
<flux> yes, I think it's a similar approach
<orbitz> perhaps the mdoel isn't needed in ocaml
<flux> using such an approach means that if you hog the cpu, nothing else can have it
* orbitz simply finds a lot of threads of execution easier to mentally manage
<bluestorm_> orbitz: depends on the problem you're trying to solve, probably
<flux> but there's a flip side to the matter: everything is atomic
<bluestorm_> orbitz: see http://ocsigen.org/lwt
<flux> it was surprisingly nice to be able to just spawn a new thread for postboning an action when one requires that
<bluestorm_> flux: still in game programming ?
<flux> bluestorm_, yes, for hobby :)
<flux> not for work..
<flux> I'm trying to realize an old game I used to play on pc eons ago: sopwith2
* orbitz wnats a remake of rocket jockey
<orbitz> there actually is one but it seems work on it has failed
<flux> also I'm thinking of implementing goba with opengl at some point
<flux> it would also make it a lot faster and reduce memory consumption dramatically :)
<orbitz> goba?
<orbitz> Game Of Bountiful Awesomness?
<flux> a small game I wrote some time ago: modeemi.fi/~flux/goba
<jdroid-> hot fries!
<jdroid-> how these things aren't the national food is beyond me
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<TychoBrahe> noz vat
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