flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<fremo> \o/ ca marche ! \o/
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<doy> do i need to do anything special to build .c files with ocamlmakefile?
<doy> other than adding it to SOURCES?
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<hcarty> doy: For simple cases that should be enough
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<tsuyoshi> so I had an idea wrt threads...
<tsuyoshi> what if you did this: start a thread with clone(), mmap a new heap for it, then when you want the return value from the thread, wait for it to die, then take the heap from the thread and combine it with the main heap
<tsuyoshi> then you basically have like the forking concurrency, but the return value is not marshalled or copied
<tsuyoshi> think I'll wait till the next release to try this.. I understand they have a new page table scheme for the heap
<Yoric[DT]> How do you know it died ?
<tsuyoshi> uhh.. waitpid I guess?
<Yoric[DT]> Oh, ok, a new heavy process.
<flux> tsuyoshi, works great if the thread ever wants to return a single value?
<Yoric[DT]> Is that for CoThreads or anything such ?
<tsuyoshi> oh now they have waittid in linux
<tsuyoshi> flux: well the idea is, it's a single value but it can be a tuple, list, array, record, etc.
<tsuyoshi> flux: and everything allocated by the new thread is combined with the main thread's heap, so the gc will go over it etc.
<flux> tsuyoshi, how big operation would that be?
<flux> close to constant time ?
<tsuyoshi> combining the heap you mean?
<flux> yes
<tsuyoshi> I don't know
<tsuyoshi> I guess that's the part that determines how feasible it is
<flux> that can't scale to a large number of threads, can it? atleast on 32-bit platforms the address space can get chewed very quickly?
<flux> fun idea nevertheles
<tsuyoshi> well it depends on how much memory you need for the stack and heap
<flux> once the thread has been spawned, and the parent process makes big allocations, fragmentation of the address space would be need to be taken into account?
<tsuyoshi> I think that is mmap's problem.. the heap allocations would all go through mmap
<flux> doesn't ocaml gc at the moment assume that everything between addresses x and y belong to ocaml..
<tsuyoshi> yeah, but that's supposed to change in the next release
<tsuyoshi> that's exactly what the new page table scheme is supposed to fix
<tsuyoshi> because it was breaking horribly on amd64
<flux> so the new thread would run in the same address space (but different copy) than the original?
<flux> or how..
<tsuyoshi> yeah, same address space
<flux> ocaml stuff would be at addresses a-b and new thread at b-c, or a-b?
<tsuyoshi> only fresh allocations in the new thread would be in the thread's own heap, until it exits and the heap is combined
<flux> would it be able to mutate stuff in the a-b range?
<tsuyoshi> so passing values back and forth between running threads wouldn't really work
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<tsuyoshi> mutation wouldn't really work.. I mean, it would under certain circumstances.. but you have synchronization and gc issues
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<tsuyoshi> I'm just thinking of purely functional threads
<tsuyoshi> I've done enough code with c and posix threads.. I want to get away from mutexes etc., it's a nightmare to debug that stuff
<flux> message passing is the way to go
<flux> I've been lately doing a server with n "threads" with a cps monad, and Event-like asynchronous message passing
<tsuyoshi> well I am just thinking.. if your code is purely functional, parallelizing it should be trivial
<flux> well, it's not
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<tsuyoshi> ok so why not?
<flux> because it's difficult?
<tsuyoshi> hmm.. I like to think about it but to be honest I have never seen anything which really needed to be run on multiple processors
<flux> adding a state monad somewhere makes everything which can see the state change to also be under the state monad
<flux> not very easy when you threads can pass messages to each other in a fashion that isn't very visible from the upper levels
<tsuyoshi> video encoding and raytracing are the only things really...
<tsuyoshi> and those two are extremely easy to parallelize
<flux> tsuyoshi, well, the server could use parallelization if enough load was given to it
<tsuyoshi> what kind of server?
<flux> it converses with a number of devices and exchanges data
<flux> ..between the devices and the database
<tsuyoshi> what does it do?
<flux> it basically keeps database on sync with the state of the devices, plus sometimes passes on interactive commands to them
<flux> then certain agregate information can be retrieved (list of devices) and certain events can be waited (a device establishes/breaks a connection)
<tsuyoshi> huh? what kind of devices?
<tsuyoshi> hrm.. I hope this internet cafe can break a $50 bill
<flux> nah, I don't get into specifics ;)
<tsuyoshi> cambodian atms suck.. even in the us the atms don't give out bills that big
<orbitz> and they charge you like whoa
<tsuyoshi> hrm.. wonder how hard it is to get ocaml working on my mp3 player
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<mqtt> Hi everybody.
<vixey> hi mqtt
<mqtt> I have a question about rectypes. Let say you have a non-recursive opaque type 'a t. You form its fixpoint with type word = word t, and the unique elements of the type with type letter = unit t. Is there a way to then define a function head (w:word) : letter which returns the first "constructor" of the type?
<mqtt> (is that clear enough?)
<Smerdyakov> You haven't given enough information about what functions on [t] are available.
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<mqtt> hmmm... that's the question actually. What is the minimum set of functions available on t to do it? But let's say you have a standard non-recursive fold...
<mqtt> an example would be type 'a t = O | I of 'a. Then you can form type bool = unit t (booleans), and type nat = nat t (type of peano natural numbers). How can you then code the test-to-zero function without referring to I or O?
<Smerdyakov> It's trivial to write a complete signature for [t].
<Smerdyakov> You provide the polymorphic elimination principle in a module where [t] is abstract.
<Smerdyakov> The types for these principles are read from a very regular recipe. Coq, for instance, defines the principles for every inductive type definition.
<Smerdyakov> Add value versions of [O] and [I] to the module and you're done; now clients of the module can do everything they could have done with the datatype definition directly.
<mqtt> could you be more specific? What would be the elimination principle on my example?
<mqtt> oh
<mqtt> you mean add a type t' = I | O ??
<Smerdyakov> module type GimpyT = sig type 'a t; val o : 'a t; val i : 'a -> 'a t; val elim : 'b -> ('a -> 'b) -> 'a t -> 'b end
<mqtt> ok let me think...
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<mqtt> Smerdyakov, but then the module signature would depend on t !
<Smerdyakov> Yes. This is supposed to be the original module where you make [t] available.
<Smerdyakov> Not any of the particular client modules you were talking about
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<mqtt> Here is the code i'm working on. I'm trying to define a fixpointing functor for generic datastructures: http://hpaste.org/7988
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<Smerdyakov> mqtt, that definitely won't parse, because module names must be capitalized.
<mqtt> ok so s/fixpoint/Fixpoint
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<Smerdyakov> mqtt, what functionality do you mean for [RECTYPE] to provide?
<mqtt> Smerdyakov, what do you mean? what functions?
<Smerdyakov> No, I mean implementations of [RECTYPE]. The whole things.
<mqtt> I just want it to be ANY non-recursive datatype, provided with a fixed set of basic functions on it.
<Smerdyakov> Oh, I see.
<Smerdyakov> That probably won't work out very well.
<Smerdyakov> You would need to be more specific about what can implement [RECTYPE].
<mqtt> Smerdyakov, are you a Coq dev?
<Smerdyakov> (And it's very odd to name the signature [RECTYPE] when you want precisely _non_-recursive types!)
<mqtt> (that's right :)
<Smerdyakov> I'm not an official Coq developer. I've made some modifications and extensions for my own purposes.
<mqtt> ok so let's talk real: t is kind_of_term
<mqtt> and you probably know that constr = (constr,constr) kind_of_term
<Smerdyakov> Mmhm
<Smerdyakov> Though it's not exposed outside the module
<mqtt> and now I want to define a new structure for G.Huet's tries, applied to constrs: I had a trie = (trie list,trie list) kind_of_term.
<mqtt> But this is too specific and not very nice. So my idea was to have a Trie functor, which takes a type 'a t with some standard functions, and builds the corresponding trie, with functions like add, mem, etc...
<Smerdyakov> So you want terms where, instead of specific subterms, you have lists of possible choices for what could go in that position?
<mqtt> YES!
<mqtt> i want to do a tree of terms, in which search is linear
<Smerdyakov> Have you read "Scrap your Boilerplate"?
<mqtt> what is that?
<Smerdyakov> A paper on generic programming in Haskell
<mqtt> no... does it talk about this problem?
<Smerdyakov> You can come up with the generic functions you want for particular use cases, but I think that paper (or its follow-ups) define one function "gfold" that suffices for most everything.
<Smerdyakov> You would probably be fine in your case just coming up with generic functions as they occur to you.
<mqtt> i'll have a look at this paper...
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<mqtt> thanks Smerdyakov, bye.
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<RobertFischer> Anyone worked with ANSITerminal? I'm having some difficulties with it.
<RobertFischer> Specifically, "scroll" doesn't seem to.
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<RobertFischer> Okay, so I'm a bit stumped.
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<RobertFischer> Ne'ermind...figured it out.
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<flux> what was the problem?
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<RobertFischer> flux: I had a method f: unit -> unit, g: unit -> 'a, and I wanted a method h: unit->'a which executed f(); g. And I wanted to do it without specifying the arguments.
<RobertFischer> But let h = f (); g causes f to be evaluated, and then defines h to g, which is not what I want.
<RobertFischer> The stumped part was because I couldn't figure out why f() wasn't being called when I called h.
<RobertFischer> I gave up being cute with partials and threw some arguments in, and so I have h = fun x y -> (f(); g x y). This is a little disappointing (I didn't want to have to specify the "pass through" arguments), but it works.
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<pango> RobertFischer: I guess you mean functions...
<RobertFischer> pango: As opposed to...?
<pango> methods
<RobertFischer> Yeah, just functions.
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<pango_> what about let h = let () = f () in g
<qwr> let h () = ...
<pango_> nope, just h
<pango_> ah, I see what you mean... it will affect the evaluation time of f ()
<qwr> yes.
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<qwr> unit -> 'a is fun signature... some marshalling or it throws an exeption?
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