flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Yes, inria.fr is back up! | Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | 3.11.0beta1 available from http://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-3.11/ | Or grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html
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<palomer> flux, using batteries?
<palomer> premature optimization is the root of all evil.
<palomer> I've only optimized a single part of my code
<palomer> and that made all the difference
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<det> How can I tell ocamlbuild to link a .cmx for -libs instead of a .cmxa ?
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<flux> palomer, using extlib
<flux> palomer, how is it premature if I'm optimizing once I've written the code?-)
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<tsuyoshi> flux: how do you scan for newlines?
<hjpark> how can i get the datetime in miliseconds? i need to give the seed to random generator.
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<gildor> hjpark: Unix.gettimeofday
<hjpark> only for Unix ?
<gildor> hjpark: but there is also a self init in Random module, that do approx. the same thing
<gildor> hjpark: it will work on any POSIX enough compliant system
<gildor> i.e. windows also
<hjpark> oh..
<hjpark> good
<hjpark> self_init is not work correctly for my app.
<hjpark> hm.. anyways gildor thanks.
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<hjpark> hm.. that's strange, It said Undefined global "Unix"
<gildor> you must link with it
<gildor> are you working on Unix or Windows
<hjpark> unix
<gildor> give me the command line you are compiling with
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<hjpark> I don't compiling now, I just test the snippet of code in Interactive environment.
<gildor> you must load unix.cma so
<hjpark> ah..
<hjpark> ok, i'll try
<gildor> before launching the interactive env
<gildor> (or after if you are using ocamlfind)
<hjpark> now, i trying #load "~"
<gildor> it won't work
<hjpark> oh..
<gildor> are you using Linux ? Debian ?
<hjpark> yeah
<hjpark> Linux ubuntu.
<gildor> try #use "topfind"
<hjpark> Cannot find file "topfind"
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<gildor> do you have installed ocaml from the package system from ubuntu ?
<hjpark> yeah.
<gildor> install ocaml-findlib
<gildor> apt-get install ocaml-findlib
<gildor> and try again #use "topfind"
<hjpark> yeah, it loaded.
<gildor> now #require "unix"
<hjpark> cool.
<hjpark> wow. it works.
<gildor> and now Unix.gettimeofday
<hjpark> yeah, it works..
<gildor> welcome in the ocaml magic world ;-)
<hjpark> but, there's some problem ..
<hjpark> hahaha
<hjpark> :)
<gildor> (magic include magical problemd of course)
<hjpark> This is term project. and i have to apply this code to my professor..
<hjpark> hmm..
<gildor> i don't see the problem...
<hjpark> yeah, it works for me.
<hjpark> But, if i submit this source code, My professor can run this code?
<gildor> why not
<hjpark> may His platform is windows
<gildor> you can either provide it as a script or as a native exec
<hjpark> Is it possible submit source code with Unix.cmo ?
<gildor> oh that is a problem
<hjpark> ah , unix.cma
<hjpark> "/usr/lib/ocaml/3.10.0/unix.cma: loaded"
<gildor> well you just have to load the interactive environment with unix.cma
<hjpark> ah..
<hjpark> topfind --> related with top level?
<gildor> i.e command line= "ocaml unix.cma"
<hjpark> ah..
<gildor> with this command line and without topfind, you can access Unix module
<gildor> gildor@yocto(sid/amd64):~$ ocaml unix.cma
<gildor> # Unix.gettimeofday ();;
<gildor> - : float = 1225621954.73497
<hjpark> and i have to write #load or #use in the script?
<gildor> not at all
<hjpark> ~/works/ocaml$ ocaml blackjack.ml
<hjpark> Reference to undefined global `Unix'
<hjpark>
<gildor> ocaml unix.cma blackjack.ml
<hjpark> ah-
<hjpark> it works.
<hjpark> Thanks!
<hjpark> It's time to dive into Ocaml worlds :)
<flux> tsuyoshi, let rec find_idx str i0 i1 ch = if i0 < i1 then if String.unsafe_get str i0 = ch then i0 else find_idx str (i0 + 1) i1 ch else -1
<flux> perhaps I could hardcode '\n' to avoid passing it as a parameter in the loop :)
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<flux> I'm actually surprised as that makes no difference at all
<flux> but, then again, it only accounts for 10% of whole runtime
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<_zack> what does the "autolib" ocamlbuild tag mean?
<_zack> I don't find it documented in the wiki
<_zack> (though I'm not surprised)
<jeddhaberstro> Isn't haskell suppose to be slow?
<thelema> _zack: what project is that from?
<_zack> thelema: batteries, but it doesn't seem to be defined by batteries itself
<jeddhaberstro> i know, that's why i ask
<tomh> so the answer is no
<jeddhaberstro> i was always under the presumption that ocaml was faster
<tomh> possibly in some cases
<thelema> jeddhaberstro: as a lazy language, there's some overhead keeping track of what has been evaluated, but the laziness can allow unnecessary code to not get run.
<jeddhaberstro> yeah
<tomh> haskell is lazy too
<jeddhaberstro> that's what thelema is saying
<tomh> oh thought he was talking about ocaml :)
<thelema> _zack: it's defined by batteries' myocamlbuild.ml
<_zack> tomh: ocaml is not lazy per default
<_zack> thelema: tnx, I'll look better then
<thelema> rule "%.ml to %.cma in presence of tag autolib"
<thelema> ~deps:["%.ml"; "%.ml.depends"]
<thelema> ~tags:["autolib"]
<thelema> ~prod:"%.cmz"
<thelema> ...
<_zack> thelema: it's commented here
<thelema> ok.
<_zack> thelema: eve with a note "not working yet"
<_zack> so apparently, ocamlbuild does not care about unknown tags :)
<tomh> ok
<thelema> yup.
<thelema> so don't misspell your tags.
<Kerris4> would anyone know when Jason Hickey's OCaml book is coming out in print?
<Smerdyakov> He would.
<thelema> I guess: "when ready"
<Kerris4> Thanks guys. :)
<thelema> lots of useful answers - why we hang around.
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<maxote> hello people, where can i find BDD libraries (Binary Decision Diagrams) written in OCaml? Thanks in advance.
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<thelema> maxote: google will help.
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<thelema> can someone help me with a camlp4 request?
<thelema> I want "type foo = new int" to expand to
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<thelema> "module Foo : sig type t val of_int : int -> t val to_int : t -> int end = struct type t = int let of_int : int -> t = "%identity" let to_int : t -> int = "%identity" end
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<thelema> oops, s/let/external/
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<mfp> thelema: quick hack, http://pastebin.com/m324dc0ff
<thelema> mfp: very nice. Mind if it gets included in batteries?
<mfp> np
<mfp> LGPL + static exception is what you're using, right?
<thelema> yup, LGPL 2.1
<thelema> same as the rest of the ocaml stdlib.
<mfp> consider it licensed under those terms ;-)
<thelema> muchos gracias
<mfp> btw. there's some lib by Martin Jambon IIRC to do something similar using phantom types
<mfp> (muchas)
<thelema> :)
<thelema> I had seen that before...
<thelema> We should include one or the other in batteries...
<mfp> I always have trouble remembering the name
<mfp> I keep looking for "abstract"
<thelema> public domain. That license workd.
<thelema> *works
<mfp> hmmm Opaque is limited to strings and ints, and includes ops that might or might not make sense for the opaque types
<mfp> like val add : 'a int_t -> 'a int_t -> 'a int_t
<mfp> if we have let port : port = int_t 0, let f port n = add port (int_t n) is meaningless
<thelema> hmm, maybe batteries could use p4ck
<thelema> yes, doing math on many opaque types is meaningless.
<thelema> but I guess if you wanted to restrict it, just write the darn thing out.
<mfp> so maybe the quick type foo = new int hack is better in more than one way
<mfp> on further thought, I don't see the rationale for the ops defined on opaque types
<thelema> well, it's public domain, I think I'll take the parts I want.
<mfp> they're polymorphic on 'a int_t or 'a string_t, but we clearly don't want to make polymorphic funcs over such opaque types (what's the point of e.g. a function that sums arrays of ports?)
<thelema> they're polymorphic so that the same function works on any abstract type.
<mfp> what I mean is that for any 'a int, we can create any desired function using int_t and t_int
<thelema> yes.
<mfp> so add : 'a int_t -> 'a int_t -> 'a int_t is redundant
<thelema> it's not strictly necessary, but the whole module is not strictly necessary.
<thelema> one just has to keep track of the different int types in your head.
<mfp> the point of the module is to make some types opaque
<mfp> yet it provides functions that operate on such opaque types
<mfp> I suppose having to do Opaque.add suffices to make sure you don't do it by accident :)
<thelema> no, because you'll do [open Opaque] to avoid typing [`Port] Opaque.int_t
<thelema> at least it's not +, -, etc.
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<_zack> thelema, Yoric[DT]: how do you test changes to batteries? is there any "magic" ocamlbuild target for that?
<Yoric[DT]> What do you mean?
<Yoric[DT]> There's no real unit testing yet.
<Yoric[DT]> There's a directory tests, though.
<_zack> Yoric[DT]: I mean, I made some changes, I want to spawn a top-level loading the current dev version of batteries
<Yoric[DT]> "make all" reinstalls Batteries and recompiles all tests.
<_zack> is there a target to do that?
<Yoric[DT]> nope
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<thelema> Yoric[DT]: what do you think of p4ck: http://martin.jambon.free.fr/p4ck.html
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<flux> btw, are you guys familiar with the new shiny private type abbreviations?
<ushdf> you guys have a interpreter chatbot in here
<ushdf> ?
<ushdf> # 1 + 2 * 3;;
<flux> xavierbot is sometimes around
<thelema> flux: I am. I'm looking forward to using them in batteries.
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<psnively> What's the benefit of private type abbreviations?
<psnively> Forgive my ignorance.
<thelema> psnively: allows one to restrict the construction of values while allowing free reads
<psnively> Ah!
<thelema> for example, positive integers.
<psnively> Nice.
<thelema> no overhead to read from the value, but you have to go through a constructor function that checks > 0 to construct such a value.
<ushdf> what's this language like?
<flux> actually there is some overhead for reads, syntax-wise, unfortunately
<flux> you need to enter (foo :> int) + 42 for instance
<flux> I hope they'd fix that :)
<thelema> flux: I'm pushing for that on -devl
<flux> but apparently there are some deeper reasons why they aren't
<thelema> ushdf: it's like ML.
<flux> thelema, do you understand the reason why they aren't?
<flux> (I'd like an example that is particularly hairy if they were allowed)
* ushdf doesn't know ML...knows lisp, sort of
<thelema> flux: well, I can't figure out the corner cases having to do with parameterized types, but jacques garrigue says there's some, so I believe him.
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<ushdf> is it like lisp?
<ushdf> :D
<thelema> ushdf: it's not too far from lisp, but we don't do the ()s, and we avoid any assignment. We're also strongly typed, even though most type annotations are optional.
<psnively> We avoid most assignment. :-D
<psnively> Statically-typed, with type inference.
<ushdf> sounds fun
<thelema> I think it quite fun.
<psnively> It is, I think... kind of a nice middle ground between the kind of anything-goesishness of Lisp and the straightjacket of a C++, Java...
<psnively> The type system is much more expressive than most static type systems, but doesn't get in the way until you ask it to (i.e. "typeful programming).
<psnively> Well, it gets in the way relative to Lisp, but I've never found it bothersome.
<ushdf> print_endline "end line world!!!"
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<psnively> As you can see, it's got what we call a toplevel ("REPL" for us Lisp weenies). :-)
<ushdf> let answer=42
<ushdf> fuck me like you fucked that horse
<psnively> You ain't seen nothin' yet.
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<_zack> Yoric[DT], thelema: Batteries_core is not visible to the end user, hence if I'm using it in the compression library I'm screwed, right?
<Daniello> hi, i am ocaml beginer, let n = read_int () in... is for reading standard input... is any similar manner also for reading booleans ?
<_zack> I guess I should use InnerIO ...
<Smerdyakov> Daniello, this is where [read_int] is declared. You can examine the rest for yourself: http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/libref/Pervasives.html
<Smerdyakov> Daniello, at the same time, I recommend not doing IO as an OCaml beginner.
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<Daniello> Smerdyakov: hmm in this url are only three functions about standart input: readl_line, read_int and read_float...
<Daniello> but function about read booleans there missing
<Smerdyakov> Why do you want to do IO?
<Daniello> somenthing like this:
<Daniello> Printf.printf "Enter b1: %!\n";;
<Daniello> let b1 = read_bool () in Printf.printf "b1=%b %!\n" b1;;
<Smerdyakov> Why do you want to do that?
<Daniello> read boolean from standard input and print it
<Smerdyakov> Why do you want to do that?
<Daniello> for example: let ffff b1 b2 = if b1 && b2 then true else false;;
<Daniello> i would like to enter both booleans from standard input
<Smerdyakov> Don't do that.
<Smerdyakov> Instead just run this:
<Smerdyakov> ffff true false;;
<Smerdyakov> And so on, for other inputs to test.
<Daniello> hmm this runs from ocaml command line, but if would like to compile it ?
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<Smerdyakov> Don't compile programs, as an OCaml beginner.
<Daniello> ok
<Daniello> i will test this rather from command line than compiling file.ml
<Daniello> Smerdyakov: thanks for your time :)
<Smerdyakov> BTW, it's more proper to say "from the toplevel" than "from command line."
<Daniello> Smerdyakov: thanks
<Daniello> i wish nice evening to all, baji :)
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<Yoric[DT]> _zack: thelema: sorry, I'm not feeling too well.
<Yoric[DT]> I'll try and return tomorrow.
<_zack> Yoric[DT]: np, sleep tight :)
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<Submarine_> Smerdyakov, yow
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<Kerris4> what's the recommended text for a newcomer to the ML family of programming languages?
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<ushdf> try JEdit
* thelema starts recommending emacs, but realizes Kerris4 didn't say "editor"
<thelema> Kerris4: the ocaml reference manual has a good intro at the beginning.
<Kerris4> thanks thelema
<Kerris4> I'm tied up with other schoolwork at the moment, but I've got to learn OCaml soon
<Kerris4> thank you very much thelema :)
<Kerris4> I'd prefer to write OCaml on F#, but since my tutor wants me to work with JoCaml soon I guess I shall have to confront my fear of Emacs :(
<thelema> _zack: ping
<_zack> thelema: pong
<thelema> _zack: what's in batteries_core that you want to depend on?
<_zack> thelema: you're referring to my *second* mail, right?
<thelema> yes
<_zack> right now File.permission, File.open_in_flag (types)
<_zack> and File.open_in/open_out (functions)
<_zack> I'm adding shorthands to directly open compressed files
<_zack> but I think the problem is general and will pop-up again in the future
<_zack> to integrate more complex libs, it is natural to expect that one will need more complex features of batteries_core
<_zack> what am I missing?
<thelema> are you referring to batteries_core.ml or to the src/core/* heirarchy?
<_zack> I'm doing "open Batteries_core" hence I believe it is the former
<thelema> you should have access to anything in the src/core/* heirarchy due to how ocaml handles separate compilation
<thelema> and this should include Batteries_core, although there's nothing there that's not available somewhere else.
<_zack> I've tried, but ocamlbuild can't find stuff like the File module
<_zack> maybe I'm missing some ocamlbuild magic, (as you probably guessed, I'm no ocamlbuild guru)
<thelema> you can't refer to Extlib.file?
<thelema> err Extlib.File
<_zack> right, let me try
<thelema> extlib is packed (sometimes I wish it weren't), so you have to refer to its submodules as Extlib.foo
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<thelema> just as Batteries_core does: module File = Extlib.File
<_zack> apparently it compiles, but would then Extlib.File unify with Batteries.File for the final user?
<thelema> Batteries.File = Batteries.System.File = Extlib.File. if it doesn't, there's a problem with OCaml.
<_zack> ok, cool
<_zack> .oO(this are the kind of stuff which we should write somewhere, to make contributing to batteries easier)
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<_zack> thelema: now, however, I've this: http://paste.debian.net/20535/
<_zack> which, assuming it works, it is not nice for the final user...
<_zack> should with live with that?
<_zack> s/with/we/
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<_zack> thelema: and it doesn't work http://paste.debian.net/20536/ :-(
<_zack> thelema: no, never mind, typo
<thelema> glad I could help.
<_zack> thelema: yup, thanks a lot
<_zack> there remains only the bit of http://paste.debian.net/20535/ , you think it's acceptable?
<thelema> for now - I'll make a note to see if there's a fix
<_zack> thelema: k
<ushdf> bind mod4-r to kill?? how about i bind your hand to the train tracks!!!
<thelema> ushdf: automatic reaction to emacs?
<ushdf> ratpoison
* thelema used ratpoison for a while
<thelema> for a long while.
<thelema> screen and ratpoison together make for lots of hidden workspace
<palomer> I used ratpoison!
<palomer> for about 2 weeks
* thelema lasted months, but was eventually seduced by GNOME's bling
<ushdf> i've been on fluxbox for a while too
<ushdf> can gnome do tiling?
<ushdf> if not...i should make it
<Kerris4> xmonad can coexist with gnome, whether you can get it there is another story (I can't)
<ushdf> xmonad is nuts
* _zack is waiting for proper integration between awesome and gnome
<ushdf> i wonder where git is going to lead us
<_zack> thelema: any established convention for "invalid argument" exceptions in Batteries?
<_zack> using legacy "invalid_arg" is OK?
<ushdf> i can't wait until all programs are forked
<ushdf> forked to all sensible uses
<ushdf> or lots
<ushdf> lots of em
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<ushdf> the sonic + knuckles model of software
<_zack> ushdf: I think it's coming, at least maintaining forks is now easier
<_zack> but first git needs to win the VCS battle
<ushdf> SVN is teh gay
<ushdf> all software is obsolete
<thelema> _zack: I use invalid_arg
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* thelema should have reviewed Yoric's UTF8.backwards code or creating enums.
<thelema> s/or/for/
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<thelema> _zack: is there one more checkin on your compress branch?
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<thelema> sorry, ignore me.
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<_zack> thelema: there are plenty, but I belive I've pushed all of them
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<thelema> I thought that git-push also did a fetch. Apparently <random web page> was wrong.
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<thelema> the last commit was ~20 min ago, no?
<_zack> thelema: yup
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<ghistos> Has anyone tried to create Windows Mobile (Win32 / ARM) standalone executables with Ocaml?
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<thelema> ghistos: there's been some interest there, but I don't recall any results
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