flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Yes, inria.fr is back up! | Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | 3.11.0beta1 available from http://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-3.11/ | Or grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html
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<palomer> cool!
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<kattla> Yay, my toy language has type classes! :)
<kattla> (now i just need to put more than type inference in the compiler)
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* palomer isn't a fan of typeclasses
<palomer> I used to use them, a lot
<palomer> but then when I switched to ocaml...I haven't missed them
<palomer> at all
<palomer> actually
<palomer> that's a lie
<palomer> I missed show
<palomer> show is useful, but that's about it
<flux> palomer, did you miss "deriving Show" more?
<palomer> I miss both the typeclass and deriving it
<palomer> it's useful for my code
<palomer> instead of I have about 6 different show functions
<palomer> and then I need to compose them to show my dozen or so data types
<palomer> about 100 lines of code...not to mention lack of code clarity
<palomer> and I don't need it for debugging or anything
<palomer> it's actually an integral part of my system
* palomer is off
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<Kerris4> my copy of Types and Programming Languages just arrived
<Kerris4> no slacking off this weekend for me :)
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<det> palomer, sexp kind of does the same thing as deriving show
<flux> sexplib is great
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<flux> soo, there are xlib-bindings for ocaml now
<flux> I wonder what's the point :)
<flux> hm, perhaps they can be useful for writing a wm
<bluestorm> a friend of mine toyed with a tiny C wm recently
<bluestorm> when i heard of the xlib binding, i thought i could translate his code into OCaml (and that it would be magically prettier and shorter)
<bluestorm> but it seems all the used functions are not there yet
<flux> given xlib's interface, shouldn't be a tough job to add them?
<flux> although I think the task would call for programmatic interface conversiona anyway..
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<Yoric[DT]> hi
<flux> hello.
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<Gionne> http://pastebin.ca/1256869 how do i get nterm correctly?
<flux> which nterm?
<flux> the first in the list?
* Yoric[DT] has mysterious "circular dependencies in OCamlbuild"
* Yoric[DT] has mysterious "circular dependencies" in OCamlbuild
<flux> let get_nterm = function Prod ((nterm, body)::_) -> nterm
<Gionne> yes
<flux> gives you the first one, if any
<Gionne> if none?
<bluestorm> (what's the "body" part for ?)
* Yoric[DT] doesn't quite understand the objective of the program.
<Yoric[DT]> Gionne: raises an exception.
<flux> (otherwise it fails, so that will complain about an incomplete match)
<Yoric[DT]> (i.e. fails)
<Gionne> how can i avoid that? --> how can i add the [] case?
<Gionne> (sorry for my newbieness)
<bluestorm> are you sure getting the first symbol of the production is what you want ?
<flux> | Prod ([]) -> add code here
<Gionne> uh fantastic
<Gionne> bluestorm, yes, i need to check if it's the same of gram
<bluestorm> (if your grammar is proper, there should be no empty production, shouldn't it ?)
<Gionne> yes it should
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<gildor> tsuyoshi: ping
<tsuyoshi> yes?
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<gildor> sorry
<gildor> about yesterday
<gildor> with the IO and Thread
<gildor> I have tested and it was worse
<gildor> What is strange is that whenever I begin to use Thread
<gildor> The program take longer
<gildor> I think that using thread automatically trigger the Gc locking
<gildor> which in turn is slow
<gildor> (the Gc get slow)
<gildor> but thanks for the tip
<tsuyoshi> oh yeah I don't think threads could really make it any faster
<gildor> ... that is unfortunate, but true
<tsuyoshi> I was just suggesting that, single-threaded, if you do your own buffering it ought to be faster
<gildor> it doesn't in fact
<gildor> own buffering vs caml buffering has the same speed
<tsuyoshi> oh really? does it go slower?
<tsuyoshi> oh
<tsuyoshi> huh.. so what is the bottleneck?
<gildor> I have tested both, and it really doesn't make a big diffrence
<gildor> well, I don't know, still looking for it
<gildor> I suspect that the Gc begin to take a long time when i get to 6M records
<gildor> i.e. it needs to mark and sweep a lot of data at each major colleciton
* gildor have lunch
<bluestorm> gildor: maybe you should considering getting an "ocamlforge.org" domain name
<bluestorm> (i'm not sure it's that important, but i often mistype "ocamlforge.org" instead of "forge.ocamlcore.org", and i might not be the only one)
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<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: i was considering integrating your comprehension extension in batteries
<bluestorm> but i think that, given the Batteries module uniformization, we could do something more general
<bluestorm> the simple way would be to have only one comprehension on Enums, and derive the other from that
<bluestorm> (in the spirit of your pa_for extension : we would give the module name somewhere and then call Module.enum)
<Yoric[DT]> That was my idea.
<Yoric[DT]> That was my idea, too.
<bluestorm> ok :p
<Yoric[DT]> Ok, formulation is wrong. I just meant "yes, I agree" :)
<bluestorm> i'm not sure wether we should also keep the specific syntaxic forms ( eg. [| ... | ... ; ... |] )
<Yoric[DT]> iirc, that's already more or less what happens in Batteries, though.
<Yoric[DT]> iirc, that's already more or less what happens in comprehension, though.
<Yoric[DT]> [| ... | List foo |]
<bluestorm> hm
<Yoric[DT]> Of course, now that we have Enum, we can implement this better.
<bluestorm> is there comprehension code inside batteries already ?
<Yoric[DT]> [| ... | bar <- List foo |]
<Yoric[DT]> No, that was just a typo.
<bluestorm> we could even choose different modules for input and output
<Yoric[DT]> So you would write something along the lines of List { x | x <- Array foo } or Array { x | x <- Array foo }, etc. ?
<bluestorm> exactly
<Yoric[DT]> The idea is interesting but wouldn't that be confusing since there is already a syntax for lists, one for arrays, etc. in OCaml?
<bluestorm> we could always define [ x | x <- li ] as sugar for List { x | x <- List li } , or anything more optimized (staying inside the List module) with the same behaviour
<Yoric[DT]> Ok.
<Yoric[DT]> Gottago, though.
<Yoric[DT]> You have my blessing :)
* Yoric[DT] will return in about 1h.
<Yoric[DT]> Oh, I have 10 minutes.
<bluestorm> ( .. and i thought that "before tackling some ambitious goals like the infix constructors, i should work on easy thing like integration of Yoric's extension for comprehensions" )
<Yoric[DT]> So are you planning to handle this?
<Yoric[DT]> I mean, are you planning to start working on this?
<bluestorm> i am
<Yoric[DT]> Great.
<bluestorm> it would be reasonable to focus on getting something working and passing the Alpha 3 requirements first
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<Yoric[DT]> First... before what?
<bluestorm> btw. i've looked at http://forge.ocamlcore.org/pm/task.php?func=detailtask&project_task_id=161&group_id=17&group_project_id=120 and i'm not totally convinced by the module A = B, C form
<gildor> bluestorm: yes, an ocamlforge.org is possible
<bluestorm> ( i see a good rationale for (include B, C), same as the extended open, but this one seems possibly ambiguous and very ad-hoc )
<gildor> will do it when I will renew ocamlcore.org
<bluestorm> ( perhaps a DEFINEd macro like MODS(...,...,...) would be more appropriate ? )
<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: well, the whole point of this extension is to be able to do
<Yoric[DT]> [module List = List, Labels]
<Yoric[DT]> [module IO = IO, BigEndian]
<Yoric[DT]> and obtain a module [List] (resp. [IO]) where the original functions are replaced by the overlay
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> even in user code, hm.
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<Yoric[DT]> gildor: we're starting to receive spam on our tracker.
<gildor> that is unfortunate
<gildor> you should only allow bug submission by authenticated user
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<bluestorm> i find the module List = List, Labels syntax a bit confusing, maybe we could find something highlighting the redefinition idea
<Yoric[DT]> gildor: I have the impression that I can't change that post-facto.
<gildor> Yoric[DT]: yes
<gildor> I think it is not possible
<gildor> (I have the same problem with Site admin BTS)
<Yoric[DT]> :/
<gildor> submit a bug to siteadmin
<gildor> when I have time i will try to figure out how to solve this problem
<gildor> (maybe direct access to the DB can solve that)
<Yoric[DT]> submitted
<gildor> thanks
<Yoric[DT]> Well, thank you.
<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: would "module List = List with Labels, ExtList" be acceptable ?
<bluestorm> (i'm still not sure it's future-proof enough, we might want to extend "module-with" in the future)
<Yoric[DT]> Well, we already have a [open List with stuff], this may be confusing.
<Yoric[DT]> But yes, that may be acceptable.
<Yoric[DT]> But is that better than [module List = List, Labels]?
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> what i find awkward with "List, Labels" is that if you don't know of the syntax extension, i have the impression it's difficult to guess what it means
<bluestorm> the syntax should be, to a certain extent, auto-discoverable
<Yoric[DT]> But is that better than [module List = List include Labels]?
<Yoric[DT]> Sorry, I meant.
<Yoric[DT]> What about [module List = List include Labels]?
<bluestorm> why not
<bluestorm> i think, if the redefinition of some values is the only intended use of the syntax, we should suggest that throught the syntax (but the reasonable limitation to reuse an ocaml keyword instead of adding one makes that difficult)
<bluestorm> on the other hand, perhaps there is another use case for such a behaviour that i don't see yet
<bluestorm> List include Labels is not bad
<Yoric[DT]> Gottago
<Yoric[DT]> cheers
<bluestorm> actually i even considered List.(include Labels) in the pa-do spirit, but users will suppose it's equivalent to something like "open List in include Labels"
<bluestorm> cheers :]
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<rwmjones> C is such a dumb-arsed language
* rwmjones tries to find out why some struct isn't defined according to the compiler, when it plainly is defined in the header file
<rwmjones> it's probably some macro in some unrelated header file
<rwmjones> nah, it's coz there's two header files with the same name
<rwmjones> stupid stupid stupid
<rwmjones> whoever thought that textual inclusion was a good idea
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<rwmjones> crumbs, I do believe I have build a cross-compiler ...
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<kattla> yay for cross-compiler! :)
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<ertai> hcarty: pong
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* Yoric[DT] is back.
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<thelema> hi Yoric[DT]
<Yoric[DT]> I'll add the modified syntax for module overriding.
<thelema> great.
<Yoric[DT]> Ok, seems to work.
<Yoric[DT]> committed
<Yoric[DT]> and pushed
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<zerny> Hi. I have a question w.r.t defining constants in OCaml. I would like to use a constant expression as TYPE_INT in a pattern where TYPE_INT is defined as say 2. Is there a way to do this in OCaml? I have had it working by using the c-preprocessor but I am not found of that solution as it breaks other things. For example, I can't get both the bitstring and cpp processors at the same time it seems.
<thelema> zerny: by default ocaml "variables" (really just bindings) are constant.
<bluestorm> zerny: the short answer is "no"
<thelema> you do have to use a lower-case first letter on your identifiers.
<zerny> thelema: but that does not work in match x with | TYPE_INT -> ...
<bluestorm> | ti when ti = type_int -> ... would work
<bluestorm> perhaps you could switch to a sum type instead of integers ?
<bluestorm> (what are you trying to do ? do you have a code sample to show ?)
<thelema> zerny: sounds like you might want a variant type.
<zerny> bluestorm: parsing a binary file so I can't change the value
<bluestorm> (i've been considering an extension for non-linear patterns à la Erlang for some time)
<bluestorm> zerny: you're parsing a flag or something ?
<thelema> he's using bitstring....
<thelema> you can't pre-process your source with cpp in your makefile?
<zerny> bluestorm: well, I am parsing a bytecode file for scheme, so I have a few types and 50 somewhat builtin operations that I need to switch on
<zerny> thelema: well yes, but how do I get the bitstring preprocessor run on the same file?
<thelema> make?
<zerny> thelema: yes
<zerny> but ocaml only seems to accept a single pp flag
<zerny> ?
<zerny> thelema: oh, so you mean run cpp standalone and then compile the result with ocaml... sorry I did not think of that before
<thelema> yes,
<zerny> thelema: thanks for clearing the trees there
<bluestorm> (there is a combine-preprocessor somewhere, developped for the withespace thing)
<zerny> bluestorm: I am not sure I follow?
<bluestorm> zerny: an utility was developped, "ppcompose", to allow you to chain different preprocessors
<bluestorm> never tried it, though ( it's inculded in http://people.csail.mit.edu/mikelin/ocaml+twt )
<zerny> bluestorm: oh, thanks. I will have a look at it
<zerny> another side question. Is there any support/extension for prescriptive types in OCaml?
<zerny> I would really like to specify the exact bit layout for a few types that will be used by both C and OCaml in my current project.
<thelema> sorry, only bitstring does anything like that in ocaml.
<zerny> I admit that it is for some low-level optimizations and I should probably be writing the hole project in C, but I am really tired of C/C++ atm.
<zerny> thelema: ok
<zerny> I figured as I could not find anything on the topic. I do recall seeing some mention of it on LtU, but I have been unable to dig it up. Can't recall if it was OCaml either.
<zerny> :(
<rwmjones> zerny, what's the problem with using bitstring & cpp at the same time?
<thelema> zerny: maybe the best way to do what you want in ocaml is with a pair of functions to pack/unpack your structs
<zerny> rwmjones: well I guess nothing. I have it working now by using cpp to a tmp file and then building as usual from there.
<rwmjones> yeah, I would expect that it should work
<rwmjones> zerny, I sort of vaguely read the above, but the problem is you want to used fixed constants because those fixed constants have a meaning in another place (eg. in C code)?
<rwmjones> zerny, if so, then we do a lot of that in the ocaml-libvirt code
<zerny> rwmjones: well not exactly. I am using bitstring to parse a bytecode file and depending on the opcode I need to parse different amounts of arguments and so on. So I would have liked a pattern of the form: match bits with | { TYPE_MOVE : 8 ; .... } -> ...
<rwmjones> ah I see, that's a different thing :-)
<rwmjones> yeah, cpp is the way to go for that
<zerny> it is just a bit more readable then the alternative :)
<zerny> otherwise, bitstring rocks
<zerny> and also that is not an issue with bitstring
<zerny> oh, but one thing I found
<zerny> if you do a { c : 8 : signed } pattern it gives an error
<zerny> 2 sec and I will find the error msg
<zerny> I get and "Unbound value Bitstring.extract_char_signed" error
<zerny> since no such function exists
<rwmjones> zerny, yeah, certain functions aren't implemented (yet) ... I've only implemented the ones that I use myself and that other people have supplied as patches
<rwmjones> extract_char_signed would be a function that is the same as extract_char_unsigned, but should do sign-extension on the result (eg. char 255 => int -1)
<zerny> rwmjones: ok. well if I do a proper fix I will send it to you. currently I have a small workaround
<zerny> rwmjones: yes, exactly
<zerny> I will give it a stab as soon as I can
<zerny> thelema, bluestorm, rwmjones: thanks for your help
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* rwmjones must have built ocaml 50 times today
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* Yoric[DT] sympathizes with rwmjones.
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<flux> great, so rwmjones is the guy to turn for when having issues compiling ocaml ;)
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<Koordin> hi i have a weird problem ; when i try to uninstall tcl/tk8.4, apt-get uninstalls also ocaml ; and when tcl/tk8.4 is installed, this bring forth conflicts with tcl/tk8.5 and amsn does not work. so how can i do to remove tcl/tk8.4 without removing ocaml ?
<Koordin> (ubuntu)
<thelema> sounds like a packaging problem - one solution is to compile ocaml yourself
<Koordin> thelema: it will not install tcl/tk8.4 if i compile it myself ?
<thelema> yes. maybe another solution is to get amsn to use tcl/tk8.5, but I can't help with that.
<thelema> (it sounds like amsn somehow ends up using 8.4
<thelema> and fails at it.
<Koordin> yes i have to tell amsn to use 8.5
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<Koordin> thelema: this was the command to use : wish8.5 /usr/share/amsn/amsn
<Koordin> thanks for helping me
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* rwmjones posts the windows cross-compiler to caml-list ...
* Camarade_Tux gets ready to test
* Camarade_Tux is also everything but familiar with rpm builds so he hopes src2pkg will handle that
<rwmjones> wth is src2pkg?
<Camarade_Tux> a magic package maker, it can create tgz/rpm/deb packages from about any sources with minimal sweat but I think I'll do it by hand today :)
<Camarade_Tux> I don't have time to test right now but I have the patch and report tonight or tomorrow morning ;p
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<hcarty> ertai: I saw that there is a changelog for OCaml 3.10.3 in CVS - will this get the camlp4 + toplevel fixes?
<hcarty> bluestorm: Regarding my pa-do + batteries comment a few days ago, I was wondering if there is an interest in making pa-do part of Batteries, either as a dependency or otherwise
<hcarty> bluestorm: Yoric[DT] said that you are the one to talk with regarding camlp4 extensions in Batteries
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<ertai> hcarty: hum I didn't heard of 3.10.3, but I will ask that
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<rwmjones> yay ..... extlib cross-compiles
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<Yoric[DT]> rwmjones: yay :)
<Yoric[DT]> Next step: Batteries Included :)
<olegfink> does sexplib support utf-8?
<rwmjones> Yoric[DT], I'm getting a feel for how to build cross-packages first
<thelema> olegfink: in what way? dumping utf8 strings?
<rwmjones> plus, I have to build virt-* ...
<olegfink> in a ask-then-think process, I've just reached the stage at which I remembered ocaml source is latin-1
<thelema> oleg; yup.
<thelema> olegfink: although aside from how the characters are displayed, a UTF8 bytestream is also a valid latin-1 bytestream.
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<olegfink> that's how haskell handles it in Prelude's Show, I was wondering if ocaml can do better and competely forgot its latin-1 nature.
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<thelema> Yoric[DT]: hmm... Reference to undefined global `Concurrent'
<thelema> but trying to add it to extlib_threads.mllib gives me: Failure:
<thelema> the file "src/core/extlib/concurrent.cmo" is included in more than one active open package
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<Yoric[DT]> I'll take a look.
<palomer> hrmph
<palomer> how do I get the last modified date for a file?
<rwmjones> yay#2 ... done ocaml-csv
<thelema> palomer: in ocaml?
<rwmjones> palomer, use Unix.stat
<palomer> cool
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<Yoric[DT]> thelema: testing my fix, if it works correctly, I'll push.
<Yoric[DT]> thelema: pushing
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<Yoric[DT]> pushed
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<Yoric[DT]> And good night.
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<rwmjones> yayyayyay ocaml-xml-light done ...
<palomer> hrmph
<palomer> cyclical dependency checking isn't as easy as it sounds
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* palomer drops it
<vixey> yes it is
<vixey> palomer, you're implementing a module system or compiler or something?
<palomer> vixey, module system
<palomer> don't have a reddit account
<palomer> vixey, it isn't easy in my case
<vixey> why not?
<palomer> I'm writing an IDE
<palomer> so I have to check every time I open a module
<palomer> and every time I change a module name
<vixey> ok that sounds horrific
<palomer> I hope you're not being sarcastic!
<palomer> anyways, this means I need to do twice the work
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<rwmjones> palomer, takes 2 secs to sign up ...
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<mbishop> rwmjones: but reddit is like drugs
<mbishop> once you sign up, there's no going back
<rwmjones> who are the 4 (probably haskell users) who have downvoted that article?
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<vixey> perhaps the article is fucking boring
<mbishop> don't know, although most articles in the programming section get one or two almost immediate downvotes
<mbishop> I just voted it up, though :)
<vixey> and maybe reddit in general isn't worthwhile
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<mbishop> Also, you might want to submit it http://www.reddit.com/r/ocaml/ there, too
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<palomer> we should have an ocaml vs haskell code off
<thelema> = ICFP, no?
<palomer> java won in 2008
<palomer> whoa.
<palomer> assembly took third prize in 2006 (!!)
<thelema> just shows how important good coders are
<rwmjones> yeah, thanks for the support vixey
<palomer> so what's this reddit thing anyway
<palomer> it's like digg?
<vixey> yes
<vixey> It's so funny
<vixey> when haskell or whatever wins ICFP it's all " what a great language!!" and when java wins it's " oh you know language hardly matters"
<palomer> so true
<thelema> choice of language can help or hurt, but a realy skilled coder in their top language will do well.
<palomer> even in brainfuck?
<thelema> no, not brainfuck.
<palomer> knew it!
<thelema> That's too much of a negative for any coder.
<palomer> I don't see cobol in the list
<thelema> cobol could win.
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