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<thelema>
has anyone tried the new aaa-batteries release?
<Camarade_Tux>
not yet
<alp_>
thelema, I did
<alp_>
but you know it
<thelema>
I'm working on integrating batteries' TODO into the aaa issue tracker, please give feedback on what's important to you
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<thelema>
How should external libraries be included in batteries? Batteries depends on camomile, but doesn't provide a replacement interface for it.
<thelema>
OTOH, some libraries like ocaml-fileutils seem like good candidates for complete subsumption within batteries, so that their primary interface is through batteries
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<alp_>
thelema, I think subsumption is better, otherwise there is not point in using these libraries within Batteries
<thelema>
but it feels wrong to subsume camomile, as it's kinda a large project, usable on its own
<thelema>
but somehow fileutils seems appropriate to subsume
<thelema>
I don't think it's the code size, although that's one factor
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<gildor>
thelema: what means "subsume" ?
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<thelema>
gildor: become a part of, similar to "engulf"
<thelema>
"take over" -- almost
<gildor>
ocaml-fileutils should remains a separate project
<gildor>
remain
<thelema>
Hmm, maybe the difference is that batteries has something to add to camomile (unicode ropes), but I dunno what to add to fileutils
<thelema>
gildor: "submodule"?
<thelema>
as in a git submodule
<gildor>
there are probably many things to add, I can think of, but I would prefer adding it directly to ocaml-fileutils than to a copy integrated into batteries
<thelema>
exactly.
<thelema>
there's nothing external to add, all the additions really just go into fileutils
<gildor>
thelema: I am willing to help, if something is needed to add into fileutils, just submit a bug/patches to BTS
<gildor>
as long as it doesn't break too much things ;-)
<thelema>
how do you imagine the relationship between batteries and fileutils?
<gildor>
thelema: BTW, beware of duplicating BTS, you seems to have entries in github and forge.ocamlcore.org
<gildor>
thelema: this can be misleading to someone that want to submit a bug
<thelema>
I'm trying to figure out how fileutils can become part of batteries, as it'll really just stay a separate module.
<thelema>
well, I disabled the batteries forums (which we never used)
<gildor>
thelema: relationship -> I think there is some enumerator all around (in particular in FileUtil level
<thelema>
I'd like to put a big notice *DON'T SUBMIT AAA BUGS HERE* on the forge bugtracker
<gildor>
module)
<thelema>
gildor: just adding enum wrappers around fileutils datatypes, and that's it?
<thelema>
hmm, maybe that's a good relationship to have with many projects
<gildor>
thelema: I am not a batteries expert, but this seems the mainpoint to me
<gildor>
thelema: why don't you create a category AAA in the forge BTS ?
<gildor>
thelema: at least you'll be able to sort them out
<gildor>
(easily)
<thelema>
I'm adding the note and email notification, so I can take any new bugs and move them to github
<thelema>
hmm, from a packager's perspective, lots of optional subpackages aren't going to work well.
<gildor>
thelema: but you already have a lot of bugs on the forge, do you intend to transfer them all ?
<thelema>
Some of them - they all still apply to batteries, if that branch finds a maintainer, ...
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<gildor>
thelema: I was thinking you have taken the maintenance of batteries ?
<thelema>
If I auto-detect fileutils and compile extensions to it when I install batteries, then that part will be another package.
<thelema>
If I require fileutils for aaa-batteries, that makes packaging easier
<thelema>
but then I'll end up with a ton of dependencies that makes it hard to install by hand
<gildor>
requiring fileutils is not a big deal (no C library in particular)
<gildor>
thelema: I thought batteries was just like haskell-platform, which does exactly that: requiring external package
<thelema>
maybe that's the right way to do things...
<gildor>
thelema: but maybe I have skipped some changes
<thelema>
Hmm, how objectionable would it be to have an aaa-batteries-all package that included all the source packages and compiled everything?
<thelema>
Well, I guess that's really ocaml-community. Might as well include the compiler in such a package.
<gildor>
thelema: from a distribution packager POV, this will be a very bad design
<thelema>
yes, such a combination would not be appropriate for systems with a package manager who can create separate packages for each part
<gildor>
in Debian, we don't really like this kind of inclusion, they made security update quite complicate
<thelema>
It would be more appropriate for non-priviledged users to install a local copy of ocaml for themselves.
<thelema>
I'm imagining myself on the high-performance cluster I have access to
<gildor>
and then what ?
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<thelema>
The use case is that I have an ocaml program that I've been developing on my system, and want to compile and run it on a different unix system.
<gildor>
since OCaml does static compilation, you just have to compile to embed everything
<gildor>
you don't need to distribute batteries to all your end-user
<thelema>
is one option if the target is the same architecture
<thelema>
and the same OS.
<thelema>
Do Linux binaries run on solaris?
<thelema>
(for example)
<gildor>
not at all
<gildor>
but you'll be able to run bytecode, I think
<thelema>
cross compilation would be an option, but it's probably easier to just install ocaml on the target system
<thelema>
and the reason to move it to another platform is usually performance, which wouldn't work well with bytecode
<gildor>
but following your thought, you should include include ocaml in batteries
<gildor>
so that you'll a single .tar.gz to compile
<thelema>
yes
<thelema>
community ocaml
<gildor>
ok, good luck ;-)
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<thelema>
there's room in the 'otherlibs' folder of the ocaml tree for many libraries
<thelema>
it wouldn't be too bad to put aaa-batteries + camomile + fileutils + findlib + others there.
<gildor>
I just ask you to provide the patch you make on fileutils
<gildor>
after this, I don't agree with this approach (too much work, too far away of what I thought batteries was, too many problems for packaging in Debian)
<gildor>
but I won't try to convince you
<thelema>
This is separate from batteries.
<gildor>
I just realized that
<gildor>
but this mean that batteries is officially orphaned
<thelema>
non-aaa batteries is.
<thelema>
It's been since Yoric got his job.
<gildor>
last time, I speak with him, he said that there was someone taking care of batteries.
<gildor>
I think it was you
<thelema>
I don't know of anyone else taking care of it.
<thelema>
I'm going my way with it - maybe I can'should drop the AAA from the name, as I didn't expect as much approval from Yoric of what I was doing as I've gotten.
<thelema>
*can/should
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<thelema>
I added the AAA mostly to indicate that it's not what Yoric intended, but more where I think it should go.
<gildor>
I think you should keep the aaa name, maybe rename it to ocaml-community
<thelema>
ocaml-community is a different project - integrating everything.
<thelema>
aaa-batteries will not ever include the ocaml compiler
<gildor>
if i read closely what DT wrote in his slide on last OCaml meeting, I think you go in a different direction
<gildor>
but this is my personnal POV
<thelema>
I have two directions I still intend to pursue
<thelema>
1) simpler batteries module
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<thelema>
2) full-featured packaging of the ocaml compiler + lots of libraries
<gildor>
anyway, keep the -aaa in the name, I think it is enough different to deserver it
<thelema>
#1 fits within #2, but not vice versa
<gildor>
people will understand that this is something not fully like batteries, and it will help to make the difference
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<thelema>
It is fully like batteries, just different build system and assembled a bit differently
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<gildor>
ok, gtg bb
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