Alpounet changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | 3.11.1 out now! Get yours from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html
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<orbitz> anyone follow teh C# 'static dynamic typing' feature?
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<DWyatt> I am trying to compile LRDE's (EPITA) Metagene project (source language is OCaml) under Cygwin but I can't get any of it to work. If someone has time and would like to help I'd greatly appreciate it. I am fairly new to OCaml and Cygwin.
<CcSsNET> cygwin is likely the cause. but i have no advice
<DWyatt> I think it is more of a dependency in the compilation chain in make.
<DWyatt> If anyone doesn't mind looking at the Makefiles for me. =)
<DWyatt> make keeps reporting "There is no work to do".
<DWyatt> I think the make files just need fixed, or I am not compiling correctly. =/
<CcSsNET> i dont have a build environment atm otherwise id try it for u
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<DWyatt> The Makefiles are small
<CcSsNET> grrr @ urxvt
<CcSsNET> fuckin thing crashes allll the time
<CcSsNET> so back to mrxvt i go
<DWyatt> Heh.
<DWyatt> CcSsNET, so how about it?
<CcSsNET> how about what?
<CcSsNET> i dont read makefiles :P
<CcSsNET> thats like a dark art
<CcSsNET> kinda like xml
<CcSsNET> haha
<DWyatt> Heh.
<CcSsNET> ok xml might be a little worse
<DWyatt> make[1]: *** [float.cmi] Error 2
<DWyatt> Doesn't even tell me where the error is... =/
<DWyatt> Does that mean line 2?
<CcSsNET> no it doesnt
<DWyatt> You will need ocaml and camlp4 3.06 to compile this package.
<DWyatt> Hmm, could it be that I'm using a newer (I think 3.11) ocaml?
<CcSsNET> its probably safe to assume it has the errors defined though if its specifying error 2
<CcSsNET> possibly but i dont know
<CcSsNET> im an ocaml noob, just here to read/learn really
<CcSsNET> but it cant be much difrent then c for build errors, sucks its not saying why its erroring
<DWyatt> I'm about to say screw it and just port the code to C++.
<CcSsNET> lol
<DWyatt> Each Makefile is referencing stuff that isn't built yet.
<CcSsNET> is it big?
<DWyatt> No.
<CcSsNET> thats a plus then if u end up coding it
<DWyatt> Basically it takes OCaml functional code and automatically generates C++ meta-template code.
<CcSsNET> o
<DWyatt> And you can embed it in to C++ source files.
<CcSsNET> interesting
<DWyatt> I'm going to transcribe the algorithm to C++ anyways.
<CcSsNET> you got modern hardware?
<CcSsNET> dual core or something new
<DWyatt> No.
<DWyatt> Single core.
<CcSsNET> damn
<DWyatt> But I have a dual core in the other room.
<DWyatt> Why?
<CcSsNET> i was going to suggest debian in a virtual machine
<DWyatt> No.
<CcSsNET> and test a build in that
<DWyatt> I'm trying to avoid virtualization, and Linux guests suck.
<CcSsNET> loll
<DWyatt> Na, I think I am now certain it is there Makefile chain.
<CcSsNET> and cygwin is a sane solution? hahaha
<DWyatt> Metagene hasn't been updated in 2003 anyways.
<DWyatt> Since 2003*
<DWyatt> Yes.
<CcSsNET> ahh^
<DWyatt> Mostly Cygwin is sane.
<DWyatt> It has its fallacies as well, though.
<DWyatt> It is more sane than messing with trying to get a decent Linux to run in VirtualBox.
<CcSsNET> eh i dont use virtualbox
<CcSsNET> i use qemu
<DWyatt> FreeBSD is about the only UNIX system that just works in VirtualBox without hassle.
<CcSsNET> clearly you dont use debian
<CcSsNET> personally i use sourcemage on my pc's but i run debian vm's in qemu over sourcemage works flawless
<DWyatt> sourcemage?
<CcSsNET> sourcemage.org
<DWyatt> And no. Every Debian attempt has served to test my patience.
<CcSsNET> gentoo compitition
<CcSsNET> debian had a bad year recently, but otherwise its the most stable binary linux ive seen, and easiest to manage
<DWyatt> Not for my use. =/
<DWyatt> I more like Xubuntu.
<CcSsNET> lol
<CcSsNET> ubuntu IS debian
<DWyatt> =D
<DWyatt> I thought you meant straight up Debian.
<CcSsNET> makes no difrence the flavor
<CcSsNET> :P
<DWyatt> Xubuntu's "environment" just suits me (mostly).
<CcSsNET> long as u have aptitude around
<CcSsNET> ahh
<CcSsNET> i use debian testing personally
<CcSsNET> and build my environment entirely
<CcSsNET> i remove all defaultly instaled apps
<CcSsNET> so that means i uncheck "desktop environment" and uncheck "common base files"
<CcSsNET> then i upgrade sources.list to modified settings then update/upgrade then install fluxbox and some minimal tools
<CcSsNET> but debian is not all perfect. thus i use sourcemage
<CcSsNET> using debian in a vm is far saner a test build environment then cygwin imo
<CcSsNET> but yea if that code hasnt been upgraded since 2003, we can assume it might not work in modern compiler versions
<CcSsNET> good example project is tux guardian. hasnt been upgraded in quite some time, and kernel keeps changing so yea that project is defunct.
<DWyatt> Yea I'm just going to try to decipher the OCaml code and transcribe the algorithm.
<CcSsNET> sounds like fun
<CcSsNET> hehe
<CcSsNET> i tried debuging tux gaurdian but it no longer suits my needs based on the way it hooked to kernel
<DWyatt> I'm basically attempting at making a nice programming environment, with C++ as the base.
<CcSsNET> cygwin is not it :P but thats just my opinion haha
<DWyatt> And some nice libraries written in C++ that produce small code and are portable.
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<DWyatt> I'm tried of all the dependencies and crap in libraries like Qt, GTK+, etc.
<DWyatt> And .NET makes me so mad, especially all the explicit marshalling in C#.
<CcSsNET> i dont accept .net as a language
<CcSsNET> so ive never used it
<DWyatt> So I decided to make my own nice environment.
<johnnowak> what do you mean you don't accept it as a language?
<CcSsNET> nothing more to be said ^
<DWyatt> With a GUI library that is easy but highly useful (by implementing WPF's FlowDocument as the main window widget creator and users can build widget components on top).
<johnnowak> i wish i could use F# on .net for non-windows development
<DWyatt> I have a lot of plans, probably too much. =X
<DWyatt> Screw F#.
<johnnowak> mono is lacking maturity though.. and other things
<DWyatt> =D
<DWyatt> I plan to have my personal Metagene have more Haskell-like syntax embedded in C++.
<johnnowak> Yeah F#... all those libraries, performance, and solid parallelism support... who needs it.
<DWyatt> OCaml is fine for now, though.
<DWyatt> johnnowak, it is more of a convenience, portable, and "freedom" issue to me than anything.
<CcSsNET> having used qbasic, vb3 - 6. .net when it came out pissed me off
<DWyatt> Plus the requirement of a huge installation of crap to use it.
<johnnowak> DWyatt: i write commercial software, so i need stuff that actually does the job
<DWyatt> johnnowak, and I won't argue with you on that. If I were in your place I too would use .NET et al.
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<Camarade_Tux> flux: had no time to look at qtcaml, I had nothing to do last week but I have far too much to do now ><
<Camarade_Tux> (wouldn't be funny otherwise I guess)
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<Camarade_Tux> 3.11.2-rc1 just announced, anyone know how many time it usually takes for it to lose its RC status?
<Camarade_Tux> (more or less than two/three weeks?)
<flux> hmm.. does it have the new features, probably not?
<mfp> Camarade_Tux: in fact, around 2-3 weeks for non .0 releases :)
<mfp> the new featuers are 3.12 I think
<mfp> *features
<Camarade_Tux> I'd like to test but I can't do so before at least 6 days and then, I'll have to set a few things up
<Camarade_Tux> and this one http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=4922 ( Ocamlbuild recompiles too many files ) should already show some difference for my small projects :-)
<mfp> PR#123 Pretty printer pour exceptions Submitted 2000-05-22 13:03 Last Update 2009-09-16 15:35 :-))
<Camarade_Tux> nice too, I had skipped it
<Camarade_Tux> from 2000 ;p
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<Smerdyakov> Yoric, is there a channel for MLstate products?
<Yoric> Not yet.
<Yoric> Hi, btw.
<Smerdyakov> Hi. :)
<Yoric> How are you?
<Smerdyakov> Reddit doesn't seem to like OPA URL generation!
<Yoric> Gasp.
<Yoric> How so?
<Smerdyakov> Well, did you see the thread about the OPA announcement?
<Yoric> I saw one but there may be another one.
<Smerdyakov> Well, several people independently complained about the inscrutable codes and use of JavaScript for all links.
<Yoric> Arf, there's a larger one :)
<Yoric> Yeah, that's an old version of OPA.
<Yoric> We'll eventually port to the more recent version.
<olegfink> Yoric: by the way, thanks for the _ syntax for currying. :-)
<Yoric> :)
<Smerdyakov> OK. In answer to "How are you?", I say "fine," BTW. :)
<Smerdyakov> Yoric, at least one person also asked about performance information. Is there any yet?
<Yoric> We haven't benchmarked yet.
<Yoric> Sorry, wife calling.
<Yoric> Talk to you later :)
<Smerdyakov> OK, bye.
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* Camarade_Tux wonders who asked about perf :P
<Smerdyakov> I always like to see that sort of thing, because my system Ur/Web seems to be the performance champion in this space, by a significant margin. :)
<thelema_> I like the syntax of OPA - it reminds me of sinatra, which I was impressed by
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<Smerdyakov> Sinatra looks icky. Same old strings-for-everything.
<thelema> Smerdyakov: ok, I'll grant that the extra '' around everything could be improved upon.
<Smerdyakov> The first thing I was thinking of was treating form results as association lists of strings.
<Smerdyakov> Also, use of URLs for intra-application links.
<olegfink> what I didn't get is how opa is implemented, it comes with an ocaml install, but how does it use it? there also seems to be an intermediate language, qml, which is probably compiled by a camlp4 frontend...
<Smerdyakov> olegfink, why is the answer to your question important?
<thelema> I want to see a template language, with the application logic pretty well separated from the presentation.
<Smerdyakov> thelema, I take that as a sign of a weak language/framework.
<Smerdyakov> thelema, you shouldn't need a separate language for "templates."
<olegfink> it isn't, but I don't think it is an absolutely uninteresting aspect
<thelema> weak frameworks use templates?
<Smerdyakov> thelema, yes.
<thelema> hmm, I think of it as good modularized code.
<Smerdyakov> I guess I'm not being clear.
<olegfink> after all I have no idea about web development so I'm left with technical aspects.
<Smerdyakov> You should be able to get that modularization with your programming language's usual modularity features.
<thelema> Smerdyakov: ok, that I have no problem with.
<Smerdyakov> A new supporting language is a sign that the main language lacks in modularity features.
<thelema> Well, I kinda agree, except that there's good reasons to give designers something simpler than programmers to work with.
<Smerdyakov> olegfink, yes, it's interesting in an intellectual sense, but probably has little practical impact. :)
<Smerdyakov> thelema, they will just naturally stick to the constructs of the embedded DSL you teach them.
<thelema> Once you're in DSL-land, yes. But if you have a general purpose language that you're building the logic in, a template language comes in handy.
<Smerdyakov> olegfink, one of the lamest initial questions to be asked about your new PL implementation is "how is it implemented?". "Why would I want to use it?" is SO much more important. :P
<Smerdyakov> thelema, modern functional languages support embedded DSL design quite well.
<olegfink> as I said, I'm very far from its domain, but I agree that "how ..?" is generally a lame question to ask anyway.
<thelema> yup. I guess I just want to see an example of this kind of separation of html from logic in OPA
<thelema> although, thinking about it, the intent is to enable a lot of the logic to go right in the HTML as if all you had was the templating language.
<Smerdyakov> In Ur/Web, my answer is that a template is a functor or function.
<Smerdyakov> To anyone with ML experience, that metaphor implies the whole approach.
<Smerdyakov> Ur is pure with monad-contained side effects, so it's easy to keep "templates" from doing naught things.
<Smerdyakov> s/naught/naughty
<thelema> that's a fair answer.
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<Sam12345> hi
<thelema> hi
<Sam12345> I just read a job posting , for a position mainly with ocaml
<Smerdyakov> It's a trick! At the interview, elder gods devour you!
<Sam12345> I would like to know, what is the advantage of this language over... Python, or C++, or other..
<Smerdyakov> Over python, you have static instead of dynamic typing.
<Sam12345> I am not familiar w/ ocaml
<Smerdyakov> Over C++, you have type safety.
<Smerdyakov> For me, those are enough; then add the usual abstraction powers of functional programming, plus the nifty module system.
<Sam12345> static typing. So, that means you have to specify the type each time? But dynamic typing is easier and faster to code, and you can specify if you need to, I think
<Smerdyakov> No.
<Smerdyakov> Static typing means that any program that compiles is guaranteed free of runtime type errors.
<efarrar> from the toplevel, is there a way to grab the last return value?
<thelema> ocaml has static typing with almost no type annotations
<thelema> efarrar: yes, let foo = <last expression> :P
<efarrar> ha
<thelema> After it's been evaluated, no.
<thelema> use rlwrap so you have proper history
<efarrar> ok
<Smerdyakov> Funny. A REPL convenience that SML/NJ has but OCaml doesn't!
<thelema> Smerdyakov: not funny that we still don't have a better solution than rlwrap
<thelema> I take that back - lwp has a better solution.
<thelema> It's just that very few use it.
<thelema> (I think)
<efarrar> i am using rlwrap, but just calculated something for a while but it just printed "Big_int <abstr>" and have no idea what the number was
<thelema> sorry - you'll have to recompute it.
* thelema makes a note to include big_int printing in batteries
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<olegfink> thelema: how hard would it be to just have the toplevel rebind "it" to the result of every expression it evaluates?
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<thelema> olegfink: hmmm.. I don't see a way to do it in camlp4...
<olegfink> but should be pretty easy by hacking the source I guess?
<thelema> yes, that should be pretty easy
<olegfink> hmm, wait, why not camlp4?
<olegfink> actually you're going to substitue E with let it = E in it
<thelema> almost - if you start with "let foo = 5" then you can't just create "let it = let foo = 5"
<olegfink> er, screw that, let it = E; it
<olegfink> but is "let foo = bar" really an expression?
<thelema> no, it's not. I guess you could not bind 'it' in that case.
<olegfink> the manual lists only "let [rec] let-binding { and let-binding } in expr"
<olegfink> of course the E -> let it = E; it transform should only apply to E's that are expressions
<mrvn> although "and" without "rec" makes no sense
<olegfink> # let a = 2 and b = 3 ;;
<olegfink> val a : int = 2
<olegfink> val b : int = 3
<mrvn> olegfink: let a = 2 let b = 3
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<olegfink> sure, but why "makes no sense"? it looks better when there are many definitions that are semantically connected
<mrvn> easier to see that the depends are not recursive without and.
<thelema> I use [let foo = e and bar = e] whenever bar doesn't depend on foo.
<thelema> whenever I don't need sequential bindings
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<mrvn> let foo = 1 let foo = 2 and bar = foo
<mrvn> val foo : int = 2
<mrvn> val bar : int = 1
<mrvn> fun, fun, fun
<thelema> combining [and] with rebindings is a recipe for disaster
<thelema> rebindings are inherently sequential, but [and] is inherently simultaneous
<mrvn> yep. I'm thus always wary of "and"
<thelema> hmm...
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<mangloid> Can anyone recommend any reading material regarding Ocaml directed towards beginner programmers?
<thelema> There's some universities that use ocaml as their basic programming language, there's probably some resources there for you.
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<mangloid> yeah sorry for no reply, thats actually what i started reading,
<mangloid> ill dive into that for now, and as i pick it up more i'll starting branching around for more info. Just a friend mentioned If i wanted to learn programming right, look at ocaml
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