#ocaml on 2009-12-16 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2009-12-08 18:14 Alpounet changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | 3.11.1 out now! Get yours from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html

00:04 <olegfink1> with typeclasses, you probably can "overload" your functions for specific types

00:07 <palomer> still doesn't help me test for type equality though

00:08 <palomer> I think I'm going to have to tag my data with a custom typ datatype which contains the type of the term

00:13 <olegfink1> http://web.yl.is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~furuse/gcaml/ -- seems you want this evil. :-)

00:15 <Camarade_Tux> I'm really enjoying the move to svn: http://caml.inria.fr/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ocaml/branches/sse2/README?rev=9468&view=log

00:15 <Camarade_Tux> "Experiment: use SSE2 floats for the x86-32 port.

00:16 <olegfink1> oh, svn

00:16 <Camarade_Tux> it's in a separate branch and while it was possible to see that with cvs, svn makes it much more visible :)

00:20 <olegfink1> and with something fancier, we could actually see what every commit has introduced...

00:20 <Camarade_Tux> hehe ;p

00:21 <Camarade_Tux> they switched to svn, that's a start ;p

00:21 <Camarade_Tux> but maybe we could have a git-svn

00:21 <Camarade_Tux> hmmm, actually thelem4 has one I think

00:25 <olegfink1> ocaml-community?

00:26 <Camarade_Tux> yes, that's what I had in mind

00:28 tmaeda is now known as tmaedaZ

00:31 <orbitz> sf does git + svn now

00:36 <olegfink1> why we don't have a VCS written in ocaml?

00:37 <olegfink1> that's just not fai

00:37 <olegfink1> *+r

00:42 <olegfink1> there's a fuse binding for ocaml, right?

00:46 <orbitz> haha

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02:08 <palomer> yeah, g'caml has runtime type annotations

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02:43 <BrianB04_> Evening all.

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04:39 <thelema> olegfink1: I got started writing git in ocaml instead of C. I didn't get very far.

04:40 <thelema> thieusoa1: I'm using ubuntu with batteries, and to satisfy my camomile dependency, I have only libcamomile-ocaml-data and -dev

04:41 <thelema> I'm also a batteries dev, so maybe I can help you with batteries.

04:43 <palomer> has batteries been chopped up into smaller pieces?

04:49 <thelema> palomer: pretty much.

04:49 <thelema> I did most of the chopping out, and mfp did the work of putting various pieces back on

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09:56 <_zack> c/ocaml interface question, let's say I've C variables "value v1, v2;", I register &v1 as a global root

09:57 <_zack> (let's say v1 is global)

09:57 <_zack> then I do v2 = v1

09:57 <_zack> is that safe or I should register &v2 as well as a global root?

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10:11 <flux> I believe you should. I assume those are global variables?

10:11 <flux> you should register such pointers as a global gc root, that cannot be traced by following pointers from the ocaml land (or other global roots), but which you nevertheles want to keep alive

10:18 <_zack> flux: the first one is global, the other one is local

10:19 <flux> _zack, so it will be reachable from the stack, which can be followed by ocaml if you follow the conventions for local variables..

10:20 <_zack> the annoying part of this is that, if you want to give a C API over an OCaml library (which is what I'm doing), you're forced either to not expose "value" to the final C user at all, or to tell them to register variables as well

10:20 <_zack> which is annoying, because you are unable to "shield" them from the fact that there is OCaml below

10:21 <_zack> or am I missing something here?

10:23 <flux> I would likely choose not exposing the "value"s, because if you expose values they would need to have ocaml development headers installed too..

10:24 <_zack> right now I've stuff like "typedef foo value", but yes, I need the header indeed

10:25 <_zack> but still, I believe that to solve the CAMLlocal/param issue for the final user, I need to rather "typedef foo value*" and use "value" appropriately only in the implementation of the library

10:27 <sgnb> is olivier andrieu around?

10:29 <sgnb> (or anyone involed in cairo-ocaml)

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10:40 <Camarade_Tux> sgnb: I don't think he is, but why the question?

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10:47 <sgnb> Camarade_Tux: is there any plan to make a release of cairo-ocaml? the current version in Debian seems to be a snapshot younger that the last release... and I've seen recent activity on the git repository

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11:18 <Camarade_Tux> sgnb: hmmm, absolutely no idea about that, sorry =/

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12:27 <Camarade_Tux> woooooot \o/

12:27 <Camarade_Tux> got my app to use ld-ocaml :) (wasn't hard at all except for a few things using C libraries)

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12:51 <Camarade_Tux> mfp: I have a problem with ld-ocaml and lablgtk2: I've put everything on: http://vpaste.net/NQdNz (basically, it could missing initialization on the C side) , compiling with -linkpkg gives no problem but defeats the purpose of course (I hadn't seen I had it in the command-line at first and only noticed becaue the files were too big)

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12:52 <Camarade_Tux> I haven't tried with "gallium"'s way of cmxs

12:52 <Camarade_Tux> (hmmm, snowing again :) )

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13:59 <mfp> Camarade_Tux: it's probably a module not referenced (which initializes something as a side effect) and hence not loaded by cmxs

13:59 <mfp> you can take a look at the .cmxa linked into the executable when you do -linkpkg with the -verbose

14:00 <thelema> Camarade_Tux: gtk_init?

14:00 <mfp> if you see one whose corresponding .cmxs is not loaded by ld_ocaml, that's probably the one

14:01 <mfp> also, how did you generate the cmxs?

14:01 <mfp> and what is "gallium's way"? Using Dynlink manually?

14:14 <Camarade_Tux> mfp: ok, gonna see

14:14 <Camarade_Tux> and yeah, I meant using dynlink manually with "gallium's way" (which I still haven't tried)

14:15 <mfp> Camarade_Tux: if you do it manually, you'll have to find which .cmxs are needed yourself

14:15 <mfp> now, if you do know the .cmxs, you can pass them to ld_ocaml too

14:16 <mfp> ld_ocaml /some/lib.cmxs /some/other.cmxs foo.cmxs <-- when lib.cmxs, other.cmxs are needed in spite of not being referenced by foo,

14:17 <mfp> so there's not much of a gain in doing Dynlink.loadfile manually

14:18 <mfp> btw. a way to have the extra lib.cmxs loaded is to do module Foo = SomeModuleFromLib in foo.ml

14:19 <mfp> i.e., add an explicit reference, so that the lib is loaded and its modules initialized (with side effects)

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14:20 <Camarade_Tux> woot, working, thanks mfp and good catch thelema: I was missing gtkInit.cmx

14:20 <Camarade_Tux> working well now :-)

14:20 <mfp> :)

14:21 <Camarade_Tux> and my executable is now 46KB unstripped, 36KB stripped while it used to be 3.5MB unstripped :P

14:22 <mfp> you can add module X = GtkInit in some code of yours ("main.ml" so to speak) to have the corresponding cmxs loaded automatically by ld_ocaml

14:23 <mfp> and I implemented thelema's idea, so you can place a symlink to ld_ocaml ("foo") in the same dir as the cmxs ("foo.cmxs"), and it'll load the cmxs + libs automatically

14:23 <mfp> (see README)

14:24 <Camarade_Tux> yeah, I saw that an hour ago ;-)

14:24 <Camarade_Tux> also, I added the modul X = GtkInit part and it loads fine now :)

14:24 <mfp> if the symlink is named foo then ld_ocaml will look for foo.cmxs in $PATH (can't use argv[0] directly since it's not absolute)

14:26 <mrvn> Googles go languages looks interesting.

14:27 <orbitz> mrvn: i become less impressed with it by the day

14:27 <mfp> mrvn: do you think so?

14:27 <mrvn> The goroutines look nice

14:27 <mfp> seems to me its authors should study some PLT...

14:28 <orbitz> I think Go would have benefited greatily from ADT's and pattern matching. With those, not having exceptions and not needing NULL make a big difference IMO

14:29 <mfp> -> they seem ignorant of advances made in programming lang research since the bell labs times

14:29 <orbitz> and no generics

14:29 <orbitz> are generics seriously "too hard to implemetn well"?

14:29 <mfp> no generics/ADTs = blunder

14:29 <mrvn> and no exceptions and and and. It is a limited language but has some nice features,.

14:30 <orbitz> mrvn: The problem is they made some mistakes that are near impossible to fix now

14:30 <mfp> orbitz: I think they create a conflict between fast compilation and good performance

14:30 <mfp> so their solution is no generics to retain both haha

14:31 <orbitz> mfp: this obsession with fast compilation really has me confused too. Fast comapred to C++ is one thing, and pretty easy to get around IMO...just don't use the stupid headerfile system

14:32 <mfp> I hear google is doing full builds many times a day (unlike MS, for instance)

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14:32 <mrvn> with 10s for a build why should they care?

14:32 <orbitz> I would be surprised if Go could compeltley replace what they do in C++ though with its limitatiosn

14:33 <orbitz> if ok, res = somefunc; ok == True { ... } is not a valid replacement for error handling

14:33 <mrvn> I'm interested to see what nice GC they will come up with.

14:33 <mfp> mrvn: heh I'd assume it takes longer; don't remember how many M locs they had

14:33 <mfp> yeah, the GC is the strongest claim

14:33 <orbitz> case somefunc of Right answer -> ...; Left error -> ... end is though :)

14:34 <mrvn> mfp: The homepage says they have a trivial mark-and-sweep now.

14:34 <mfp> that they'll make it concurrent and fast and everything

14:34 <mfp> the current one is a toy indeed

14:34 <mrvn> And if they get the GC right we might just steal it. :)

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14:35 <mrvn> But I really like their goroutines. Having such a mini thread use <4K memory makes it great to create millions of them.

14:36 <orbitz> Erlang has had that forever, and erlang processes are supperior IMO (with OTP)

14:36 <thelema> orbitz: yes, but erlang doesn't look like C

14:36 <mfp> plus Go doesn't do distributed programming, unlike Erlang

14:36 <orbitz> thelema: ports aren't that hard to use..

14:36 <mfp> and no code mobility

14:37 <orbitz> The biggest ghign Erlang has that nobody else does is error handling

14:37 <mfp> if JoCaml used some mixture of Lwt + POSIX threads it'd totally pwn Go

14:38 <orbitz> haskell threasd are also insanely cheap

14:38 <orbitz> + you get exceptions, ADTs, generics, etc etc

14:38 <mfp> IIRC a Lwt thread took a couple hundred bytes or so

14:38 <mfp> orbitz: ... but no distributed programming

14:38 <orbitz> Sure, my statemetn was jus tin comparison to Go

14:40 <thelema> orbitz: no, the successful languages are ones that look and mostly feel like existing successful languages

14:40 <orbitz> thelema: I don't think i stated anything about beign successful

14:40 <thelema> n/m, then.

14:41 <orbitz> I know Haskell will enver be uber popular, i'm not sure if i'm sad about that or not, but Haskell has had innovations Go has now for ages, and they are better IMO

14:42 <orbitz> Don't get me wrong, Go is certainly better than C IMO. Just think it's overhyped/overloved

14:42 <thelema> yes, but there's something to be said for "bringing the features to the people", as opposed to people having to switch how they think to even begin to use the features

14:43 <orbitz> thelema: i can't disagree there, i think that is one value of Ocaml. I always suggest Ocaml as a first step for people comign from imperatiev land if they want toget into FP. i just wish ocaml would get off its horse and add functionality we all want

14:44 <thelema> orbitz: such as...

14:45 <orbitz> thelema: Concurrency

14:49 <thelema> that's all?

14:50 <orbitz> thelema: that is all I can think of right now

14:50 <bogen> All the hype about Go is what put me on a language quest that ended up with me finding OCaml.

14:50 <thelema> do you understand why OCaml doesn't have the kind of concurrency you're asking for?

14:51 <mrvn> thelema: because the GC is single core.

14:51 <orbitz> thelema: Currently the reason seems to be because Xavier doesn't want to put the effort in, which has some merit to it.

14:51 <orbitz> thelema: i'm not saying it's an easy task toa ccomplish, but i'm not the only one who thinks somethign like better concurrency woudl be a valuable addition to ocaml.

14:52 <thelema> and he doesn't want to do it because he thinks that Shared Memory Parallelism will onlu be useful for a short time

14:52 <thelema> that we'll get too many cores for SMP to work before long.

14:52 <mrvn> They will still have shared memory, just NUMA.

14:53 <orbitz> we already have too many cores to eb useful

14:53 <mrvn> We are going verry much away from non-shared multi processors (i.e. clusters) to large single systems.

14:53 <orbitz> mrvn: where i am we are goign teh exact oppostie direction

14:53 <orbitz> multi core boxes are almost useless to us

14:53 <orbitz> we are a somewhat special case thoguh

14:54 <thelema> I guess I say shared memory as opposed to message passing

14:54 <bogen> Could'nt OCaml due some sore of concurrency via forking and message passing?

14:54 <bogen> s/sore/sort/

14:54 <thelema> bogen: ocaml totally has that already

14:54 <mrvn> bogen: way to slow

14:56 <bogen> mrvn: ok, yeah, I guess would depend on the what the application though (as the message passing overhead would be high)

14:56 <mrvn> bogen: you also need to register tons of new GC roots for passed objects.

14:56 <bogen> mrvn: ok

14:56 <mrvn> bogen: and add proxy objects that fetch the actual one when being accessed

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14:59 <thelema> mrvn: if you have large, mutable data structures, you will have problems with message passing, yes.

15:00 <thelema> maybe even not necessarily mutable, if the threads are producing these large structures in their memory space, and expecting to pass them around

15:00 <thelema> but we already have solutions (Ancient) for large structures that don't change

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15:02 <bogen> yeah, well, most the programming I do does not require parallelism and concurrency, but I can see the need for that in many applications. (And would likely start doing more myself if the language I was using supported it). Go though for me compromises or is deficient is so many areas that OCaml is not.

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15:14 <Camarade_Tux> I just compiled webkit (which is a big project in C++ and using -O2/O3 optimizations) on my new machine (phenom ii x4 955, quad-core at 3.2GHz), took 7 minutes or less

15:14 <thelema> 7 minutes or less?

15:14 <Camarade_Tux> the machine is powerful but I'm not sure I'd need a language that compiles faster (and that was C++)

15:15 <Camarade_Tux> thelema: it took 7 minutes 26 seconds but I actually made a slackware package: it includes source extraction, compilation, make install and package compression, so it probably took a _bit_ less than 7 minutes

15:21 <thelema> ok. If you had millions of LOC, you'd want faster compilation

15:22 <Camarade_Tux> 640k LOC of cpp in webkit

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16:04 <_zack> rwmjones: (or anyone else with OCaml/Fedora experience) which -devel package one must install to have the *static* part of ncurses needed to build in turn static C/OCaml executables?

16:05 <rwmjones> _zack, it would be called ncurses-static ... but Fedora doesn't ship static libraries as a rule

16:05 <rwmjones> let me just check that one

16:05 <rwmjones> _zack, you're in luck, ncurses-static exists

16:06 <mrvn> .oO(apt-file libncurses*.a)

16:06 <_zack> on a Fedora machine, I've the packages listed at http://paste.debian.net/54186/ installed, but still static linking fail to find some ncurses symbols (tputs, tgetent, tgetstr)

16:06 <_zack> rwmjones: am I? :-) according to that packages ncurses-static is already installed

16:06 <_zack> (or maybe @fedora means something else?)

16:12 <_zack> rwmjones: ^^^

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16:21 <rwmjones> _zack, are those symbols in ncurses? I thought they'd be part of termcap/terminfo

16:21 <rwmjones> _zack, yeah, they're in libtinfo

16:21 <rwmjones> $ nm /usr/lib64/libtinfo.a | grep tgetent

16:21 <rwmjones> 00000000000002c0 T tgetent

16:21 <rwmjones> libtinfo is also in the ncurses-static package

16:22 <_zack> rwmjones: in debian they are all in libncurses5-dev

16:22 <_zack> that's all I know :-(

16:22 <ygrek> http://paste.defun.ru/m5d4934bb

16:23 <rwmjones> _zack, what command are you using to link? the problem is you need to also link with -lncurses -ltinfo

16:23 <ygrek> how to make it work with ocamlc?

16:23 <ygrek> looks like some module with ocaml grammar is not loaded, but which one?

16:23 <_zack> rwmjones: ah, maybe the .pc files are different on debian and fedora

16:23 <ygrek> this doesn't help : ocamlc -linkall -pp camlp4of dynlink.cma -I +camlp4 camlp4lib.cma Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4OCamlParser.cmo q.ml -o q

16:23 <ygrek> any ideas?

16:23 <_zack> and on my box I've all the flags, whereas on fedora some are missing

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16:24 <rwmjones> ygrek, error message?

16:25 <rwmjones> _zack, what's the difference? If it's a bug, please file it: http://bugzilla.redhat.com/

16:25 <ygrek> File "<string>", line 1, characters 0-1

16:25 <ygrek> Stream.Error("entry [sem_expr] is empty")

16:25 <ygrek> Fatal error: exception Failure("Syntax Error")

16:25 <_zack> rwmjones: k

16:25 <ygrek> compiles fine, but parse_string raises exception

16:25 <ygrek> same code works as expected in toploop

16:26 <_zack> rwmjones: what's weird is that on debian for me it's enough to add -lncurses, I don't need -ltinfo

16:27 <rwmjones> ygrek, same for me (Fedora 12). I'm baffled by what the code is supposed to be doing though, so I guess it's a bug/problem with the code or camlp4.

16:30 <ygrek> parse_string creates piece of ast from string

16:31 <rwmjones> _zack, are the two versions of ncurses similar? I doubt that Fedora would have changed anything like that (against policy), so maybe it's an upstream change.

16:31 <_zack> rwmjones: major and minor version numbers are the same

16:31 <_zack> I can't find at all a libtinfo in debian

16:32 <rwmjones> _zack, which Fedora release is this?

16:32 <_zack> 11

16:33 <rwmjones> _zack, it may be the options we use to ./configure it. See how we build it (in Fedora 13) here: http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/devel/ncurses/ncurses.spec?view=markup#l108

16:33 <rwmjones> eg. --with-termlib=tinfo

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16:34 <_zack> rwmjones: noticed that, I'm checking what debian does

16:34 <rwmjones> apparently we do it that way so that libtinfo can be shared between ncurses and ncursesw

16:34 <_zack> we don't have that option in debian

16:35 <_zack> rwmjones: do you have a .pc file for ncurses in fedora? (debian has not)

16:35 <rwmjones> $ cat /usr/lib64/pkgconfig/ncurses.pc

16:35 <rwmjones> prefix=/usr

16:35 <rwmjones> exec_prefix=/usr

16:35 <rwmjones> libdir=/usr/lib64

16:35 <rwmjones> includedir=/usr/include

16:35 <rwmjones> major_version=5

16:35 <rwmjones> version=5.7.20090207

16:35 <rwmjones> Name: ncurses

16:35 <rwmjones> Description: ncurses 5.7 library

16:35 <rwmjones> Version: ${version}

16:35 <rwmjones> Requires:

16:35 <rwmjones> Libs: -L${libdir} -lncurses

16:36 <rwmjones> Cflags:

16:36 <rwmjones> but the ncurses.pc file only applies to the shared library, not to static linking

16:36 <gildor> _zack: are you working on the bug hitting ocaml-curses ?

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16:36 <_zack> gildor: no

16:37 <gildor> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=550377

16:37 <thelema> I'm thinking about "adopting" camlzip to become part of batteries... any thoughts?

16:37 <gildor> ok (the bug has been submitted by rwmjones and concerned ncurses...)

16:38 <_zack> rwmjones: aren't there static-related flags that you can add in a .pc?

16:38 <_zack> ayhow, given that debian lacks it, I can't rely on it to abstract over linking flags :-(

16:38 <rwmjones> _zack, apparently:

16:38 <rwmjones> Libs.private:

16:38 <rwmjones> This line should list any private libraries in use. Private

16:38 <rwmjones> libraries are libraries which are not exposed through your

16:38 <rwmjones> library, but are needed in the case of static linking.

16:38 <_zack> right

16:39 <rwmjones> yup ... file a bug http://bugzilla.redhat.com/

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16:48 <gildor> thelema: hum, camomile has release a version 0.7.2 in June 2009

16:48 <gildor> released

16:48 <gildor> why do you consider it as orphaned ?

16:49 <ygrek> I can make it work as : ocamlc -pp camlp4of dynlink.cma -I +camlp4 toplevellib.cma camlp4o.cma q.ml -o q

16:49 <ygrek> but it doesn't look normal

16:50 <thelema> 5 months ago the license was changed. before that... Probably 2006 was the last code change.

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16:50 <thelema> I can't check, because the one commit available in SCM is the commit updating the license change (initial SVN commit)

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16:51 <thelema> yes, 0.7.1 was Aug 2006

16:52 <thelema> and as far as I can tell, the only change was the license

16:55 <gildor> thelema: current maintainer has at least submitted itself 2 bugs back in june

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16:57 <thelema> Well, I stand corrected. The project isn't completely orphaned.

16:58 <gildor> thelema: it is low maintainance but I have some of my libraries which are in a similar state (i.e. fileutils/gettext doesn't have a single release for a long time, but I didn't consider them as orphaned)

16:59 <thelema> pre-1.0?

16:59 <thelema> and no response in months to critical bugs in data structure libraries?

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16:59 <gildor> what pre-1.0 ?

16:59 <thelema> are your projects pre-1.0?

16:59 <gildor> no

17:00 <thelema> I can understand having a project post 1.0 not have any changes because no pressure on it to change

17:00 <gildor> they are 0.3.* and 0.4.*

17:00 <thelema> but if you're not 1.0 (which camomile should be), by definition you're not done and need to continue

17:00 <thelema> oh, they are pre-1.0

17:01 <thelema> are people using them?

17:01 <gildor> I am using them ;-) (and ocaml-gettext is used by other I think)

17:02 <thelema> in production?

17:02 <gildor> don't know, anyway version number for small project doesn't mean anything

17:03 <gildor> is there people using camomile with "in production software ?"

17:04 <thelema> I have no idea if *anyone* is using camomile other than us.

17:04 <gildor> I use camomile (in ocaml-gettext)

17:05 * thelema is done being ornery

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17:20 <rwmjones> we used camomile in production at merjis (handling japanese text)

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18:14 <thelema> rwmjones: ok, so there's no reason camomile shouldn't be labeled 1.0

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19:38 <EliasAmaral> thelema, i heard that emacs never reached 1.0, they just realised they will never feel it was complete and then dropped the 0

19:38 <EliasAmaral> but i think this is a good problem to have :)

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19:39 <EliasAmaral> oh, it never reached 2.0. it went to 1.12 to 13.0

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19:39 <thelema> I'm in agreement with http://semver.org/

19:40 <thelema> since most ocaml projects are libraries with simple front-ends

19:40 <thelema> if they have a frontend

19:40 <EliasAmaral> hmmmm. yeah!

19:42 <EliasAmaral> i ever felt that linking against some _implementation_ version (as ELF usually do) and not to some kind of formal specification is something just wrong

19:43 <EliasAmaral> and also i could forgive tbe C processor or not having a syntax for doing a #include against a, say, version number, at least

19:43 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: C has no specification. Noteven types for symbols.

19:43 <EliasAmaral> because libraries isn't supposed to break past programs

19:43 <EliasAmaral> but it's annoying that newer languages don't have

19:44 <mrvn> It is hard to find a language that doesn't use the stupid C linker.

19:44 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, yeah. but elf is used for other kinds of programs, written in languages that do care about these things. and elf is pretty recent

19:44 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: I'm still looking for a language that includes exceptions in its type system.

19:44 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, elf is used by assembly programs that don't export symbols because they don't have one, too. i mean: a type table should be an optional feature for any sane executable packager

19:45 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, just like ocaml?

19:45 <mrvn> .oO(Write one)

19:45 <EliasAmaral> hm?

19:45 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: ocaml doesn't have exception in its function types

19:45 <EliasAmaral> hmmm.......

19:46 <EliasAmaral> lisp?:)

19:46 <flux> mrvn, you could use yoric's encoding of it :). but yeah..

19:46 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, i though its special syntax created types.. exceptions do live in a special namespace?

19:46 <thelema> mrvn: yes it does: http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/libref/Printexc.html

19:46 <flux> (basically, sum types with polymorphic types)

19:47 <mrvn> # exception Foo let f x = raise Foo;;

19:47 <mrvn> exception Foo

19:47 <mrvn> val f : 'a -> 'b = <fun>

19:47 <mrvn> That should be 'a -> 'b * Foo

19:47 <thelema> Printexc.to_string : exn -> string

19:47 <thelema> oh, it doesn't encode what exceptions can be thrown in the type...

19:48 <mrvn> exactly.

19:48 <thelema> what does that have to do with the linker?

19:49 <mrvn> nothing really.

19:49 <thelema> just a generic gripe against a design choice in OCaml's type system

19:49 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, the type 'b * Foo would be compatible with 'b? the * Foo part is propagated?

19:49 <thelema> You'd enforce the return types by propogating uncaught exceptions into the return type of functions calling f?

19:50 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: * is the wrong char there but closest to what I mean

19:50 <mrvn> thelema: yes

19:50 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, what bothers me in this aspect is that a pure function doesn't propagate this qualifier to the caller (the compiler really doesn't know about it). i miss a pure keyword to enforce my function doesn't change state as well

19:50 <mrvn> thelema: and the .mli files would have to list them correctly.

19:51 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: that is missing for the function, it arguments and its return value.

19:52 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, no, i mean, type "b that may raises Foo" is compatible with b? and the "raises Foo" propagates to callers?

19:52 <EliasAmaral> it's funny that C and C++ have a const keyword

19:52 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: let g x = f x would make g automaticaly 'b * Foo too.

19:53 <thelema> mrvn: ok. Does this need to be built into the compiler?

19:53 <flux> mrvn, how about: let apply f x = f x

19:53 <EliasAmaral> but the functional folks don't realised it could be useful to avoid errors raised by mixture between functional and imperative styles

19:53 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: only let g x = try f x with Foo -> () would not have a * Foo

19:53 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, this is of course something that sounds good in the theory. the one that implements this may write a paper or two, too :)

19:53 <mrvn> flux: ('a -> 'b * exn) -> 'a -> 'b * exn

19:53 <flux> basically the basic version of that has been tried in java, and apparently the experiment has not been a great success

19:54 <flux> but if the exception type can be encoded like that with higher order functions, then perhaps it'd work

19:54 <thelema> what would be the type of: let f g h x = (try g x with Foo -> 1) + (try h x with Bar -> 1)

19:54 <mrvn> c++ can declare exceptions but anything not declared then gets transformed into an uncaught exception instead of what it really is.

19:55 <EliasAmaral> flux, the thing is: you may ignore it if you want, and live in the same way you live now. but whenever you see a type, it will contain useful info (its easier to filter verbosity than to generate hidden data)

19:55 <thelema> flux: I agree that java's exception declarations are a failure, buut type inference might fix that.

19:56 <thelema> would the type of f be ('a -> int * Foo) -> ('a -> int * Bar) -> 'a -> int?

19:56 <mrvn> thelema: ('a -> int * [< Foo | exn1 ]) -> ('a -> int * [< Bar | exn2 ]) -> 'a -> int * [< exn1 | exn2 ]

19:57 <EliasAmaral> flux, of course if this get in your way and breaks existing code, this doesn't work the way things in ocaml generally works

19:57 <mrvn> maybe without the <

19:57 <EliasAmaral> does any language implements this mrvn?

19:58 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: haven't found one yet. haven't looked for obscure ones though.

19:58 <flux> I take it everyone participating this discussion is aware of: http://dutherenverseauborddelatable.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/improving-exception-management-in-ocaml/

19:58 <thelema> so [let f g h x = g x + h x] would have type ('a -> int * [exn1]) -> ('a -> int * [exn2]) -> 'a -> int [exn1 | exn2]] ?

19:59 <thelema> s/]]/]/

19:59 <EliasAmaral> i am very curious about the mathematical side of the question "what is the most complex type system that could be usable". one said that types will always be of limited usefulness, because there is no type system to describe the actual relationship between an elipses and an circle

19:59 <thelema> flux: yes, that's a good embedding of what mrvn wants into the ocaml type system

20:00 <EliasAmaral> maybe there are and it's not usable in actual programs... maybe there are and it's not possible to make type inference on it. or maybe it's there for eternity and nobody spotted on it yet:)

20:00 <thelema> EliasAmaral: huh? the relationship between elipses and circle - isn't that a simple subtype relationship?

20:00 <EliasAmaral> thelema, no. because then i want to describe the relationship between, say, curves

20:00 <mrvn> flux: I didn't but that sounds like it does exactly what I want with the type system. Not sure about execution drawbacks though.

20:00 <flux> yeah, the problem simplifies quite a bit when you forgo mutability :)

20:01 <EliasAmaral> thelema, you can think of the relationship between equations with free variables as well, this is just a special case

20:01 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: I think a 5 level type system.

20:01 <thelema> EliasAmaral: feh.

20:01 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, don't know about that, have a link?:)

20:01 <flux> eliasamaral, well, first you need to understand what you want to express, and then just express it in for example Coq :)

20:02 <EliasAmaral> flux, Hmmm.... @.@

20:02 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: no. just some recolletion from a lecture. Ocaml has just one level. THE type system. The next would be a meta type system. then meta meta type system and so on.

20:04 <EliasAmaral> ... @.@ sounds like intersting stuff :(

20:04 <EliasAmaral> ops :)

20:05 <EliasAmaral> flux, i have a professor that works with sml and isabelle, I think I will just apply for a "scientific initiation" with him (not sure if this is the english term)

20:05 <mrvn> flux: the exception hierachy in your url sounds interesting.

20:07 <EliasAmaral> one friend of mine was doing it and feel his personality somewhat unbearable, and was doing say.. deep recursive permutations for listing possibilites, small things that the professor not wished to do himself, but, still... :)

20:08 <thelema> flux: thanks for the link - I had assumed mrvn was familiar.

20:09 <EliasAmaral> i am reading this too :)

20:10 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, there is a chance that implementing this would conflict with type inference. in this possibility one would have to make type annotations for some things that compile fine now. this already happens in ocaml, but with the object system, and it annoyed me enough to give up the object system

20:10 <mrvn> flux: know of an implementation for "const" too?

20:10 <flux> mrvn, sure, phantom types!

20:10 <EliasAmaral> (I was unfamiliar with objects since the very beginning, and just a small thing made me think it was just flawed)

20:11 <mrvn> flux: they don't work for functions themself and you need to manually call foo or foo_const

20:11 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: for GUIs you really want objects.

20:11 <flux> mrvn, well, they don't work for functions themselves in c++ either.. only for methods..

20:11 <EliasAmaral> flux, "phantom types" means "const types / purely functional types" ? why they aren't in ocaml? they are just so useful...

20:12 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: you can write modules with phantom types.

20:12 <flux> eliasamaral, hmm, ocaml has phantom types.. they aren't purely functional types.

20:12 <flux> eliasamaral, phantom type is simply a polymorphic type where you don't use the polymorphic type for representation. like: type 'a i = int

20:13 <flux> eliasamaral, then you can have also: type readwrite type readonly and functions with signatures like val increment : readwrite i -> unit

20:13 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, yeah, years after my own prejudices and biases I discovered that I could make good use of objects if I become more pragmatic.

20:14 <EliasAmaral> flux, hmmm...

20:14 <mrvn> flux: readwrite, readonly and const.

20:14 <flux> eliasamaral, for this to work the type needs to be abstract (or private)

20:14 <EliasAmaral> flux, this is too ad hoc. why not embed this into the language?

20:14 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: what for? would only make the language more complex.

20:15 <EliasAmaral> ocaml is and always was a floating target, never got too fixed like a language with standards

20:15 <flux> eliasamaral, adding const correctness to a language would be a pain.. and in any case, constness is less of an issue if you don't have, or have very little, mutable data around :)

20:15 <EliasAmaral> I think the language would be more useful, too.

20:15 <flux> eliasamaral, in addition you can express any kind of constraints, like readable or writable sockets, this way

20:15 <EliasAmaral> ocaml is supposed to support fully the mixing between imperative and functional code

20:16 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: just wrap the stdlib into modules with phantom type and you have the support.

20:16 <flux> :)

20:17 <mrvn> And yes, the stdlib should have that already.

20:17 <EliasAmaral> i am thinking about cases it would not work. what if I pass a readonly int to a function that accepts readwrite ints? well, it would just... accept?

20:17 <EliasAmaral> then we don't have actual readonly. ocaml is about type correctness at compile time

20:17 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: then the type inference gives an error.

20:17 <EliasAmaral> gives?

20:18 <EliasAmaral> but, they are both int

20:18 <EliasAmaral> so I misunderstood the specification of ocaml types. or better i never read it

20:18 <flux> eliasamaral, it's supposed to be abstracted away, so all you see is type 'a i

20:18 <mrvn> not. One is [`Read] int and then other [>`Write] int

20:18 <flux> eliasamaral, and you have functions like val mk_i : int -> readwrite i

20:18 <EliasAmaral> two types that are both int aren't compatible?

20:19 <flux> but have a good talk, I'm off to bed..

20:19 <EliasAmaral> ok, bye :)

20:19 <EliasAmaral> also, I need to make a new phantom type for every type I want to make readwrite/readonly?

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20:20 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: http://caml.inria.fr/pub/ml-archives/caml-list/2001/09/081c77179ee2a3787233902a51633122.en.html

20:20 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: yes. you would.

20:20 <EliasAmaral> I quite not understand how this approach would be useful. It seems the contrary of what ocaml system usually behaves: forces me to be verbose and do an ad-hoc implementation of some nice feature with types

20:21 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: your types would just be a bit longer in the mli files.

20:22 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: If you add it to the language itself the only difference would be the grammar how you specify them.

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20:24 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: also see the example of statically sized arrays using phantom types at the end of the mail.

20:24 <mrvn> hmmpf, too late. stupid DDOS.

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20:33 <EliasAmaral> problem: i can't pass a readwrite type to a readonly function (maybe there is a solution, but this is maybe is too verbose)

20:34 <mrvn> EliasAmaral: You can pass a [`Read `Write] type to a [> `Read ] function.

20:34 <palomer> not statically sized, statically dimensioned (if I understood the text right)

20:35 <mrvn> palomer: array of 1230 elements if I remember it right.

20:35 <mrvn> Could be wrong

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20:51 <EliasAmaral> freenode is still being ddosed? i am worried. years ago i used to chat on a network that just closed doors because of ddos, it looks like the far west :(

20:51 <EliasAmaral> =~

20:58 <EliasAmaral> mrvn, I really liked that post on the caml-list, maybe I should sign it

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21:08 <palomer> "where I

21:08 <palomer> mistakenly asserted that you couldn't have statically typed array

21:08 <palomer> dimensions in ML like you can in C++ or Ada."

21:08 <thelema> yes, I really miss statically typed array dimensions.

21:08 <palomer> ahh, dimension = size

21:08 <thelema> They're still not easy in ML

21:09 <palomer> what's the difference between doing it in ML and doing it in C++?

21:09 <thelema> I dunno. I come from Ada.

21:10 <EliasAmaral> pad, in ml is more verbose

21:10 <EliasAmaral> in c++ it's straightforward: int b[10];

21:10 <EliasAmaral> ops, palomer

21:11 <EliasAmaral> palomer, i was reading now, it relies on a obscure and fun trick

21:11 <thelema> in OCaml at least, you have to do Module magic to make sure your bounds values are of the right range

21:11 <EliasAmaral> do the ocaml type system permit those "ranged ints"? like the pascal ones

21:11 <thelema> yes, you use the module system to abstract the actual array and index types from the user.

21:12 <EliasAmaral> type (-'a) gtkobj, is this valid? (i am not with an interpreter to test)

21:12 <thelema> ocaml doesn't have ranged ints. It's been on my todo list for batteries forever.

21:13 <EliasAmaral> you is the one in charge of batteries? hmmm, can you tell me exactly what it is? it's like ruby gems, like extlib? ocaml-batteries-included - Batteries included: OCaml development platform - metapackage on ubuntu

21:13 <thelema> It's an extended standard library.

21:13 <thelema> I dunno ruby gems

21:14 <palomer> the [10] is not part of the type in C++

21:14 <EliasAmaral> just like extlib?

21:14 <thelema> it started with extlib and grew a ton

21:14 <EliasAmaral> palomer, it is checked by the compiler

21:14 <palomer> what is?

21:14 <palomer> int b[10]; simply allocates 10 ints onto the stack and assigns b the address of the first int

21:15 <EliasAmaral> oak

21:15 <EliasAmaral> ops

21:15 <EliasAmaral> palomer, c have a very loose type system. but its semantics says that the compiler may give a warning (or an error?) for b[11]

21:16 <EliasAmaral> so you can loosely says it's part of the time

21:16 <EliasAmaral> type

21:16 <EliasAmaral> because it will have to be carried out along with the type

21:16 <palomer> that's a pretty weak form of static typing

21:17 <thelema> EliasAmaral: some compilers may do a compile-time check for b[11], but at runtime... anything goes.

21:17 <EliasAmaral> one might say that c have a practical type system where ocaml have a theoretical one

21:17 <EliasAmaral> thelema, :-)

21:17 <thelema> Ada's type system is quite good.

21:17 <palomer> int b[10]; b[11]; <--compiles without warning in C++

21:17 <thelema> but I suppose noone here knows much about it.

21:17 <EliasAmaral> you actually do like ada?

21:18 <EliasAmaral> thelema, please try to sell ada to me

21:18 <palomer> ADA is one of those great languages no one cares about

21:18 <thelema> EliasAmaral: I like the type system, and some things you can do with discrete types. The whole language is a pain to use.

21:18 <EliasAmaral> thelema, I never encountered someone that actually enjoys it

21:18 <EliasAmaral> thelema, heh

21:19 <palomer> even with -Wall

21:19 <thelema> Ada has some *very* nice things built into it. But it doesn't look like C, so it's not mainstream

21:19 <EliasAmaral> actually I have found one. it's a respectable researcher on a field I don't care about, software engineering.

21:19 <thelema> Ada also has a similar problem to OCaml, except its stdlib is even more spartan than OCaml's.

21:20 <EliasAmaral> I was taught (by internet gurus, not professors) to just ignore software engineering, but this guy just happens to develop verified software for nasa, among other things

21:20 <palomer> so, in conclusion, the size of an array is not stored in its type in C++

21:20 <thelema> palomer: it is in Ada.

21:20 <palomer> thelema, how does that work?

21:20 <thelema> I'm not certain about the low level implementation, but arrays in ada are range checked, and can be either static or dynamic in length.

21:21 <thelema> Ada compilers are really good at inserting bounds checks exactly where they're needed

21:22 <palomer> so int b[10]; for(int i = 0; i < 12 ; i++){b[i];} would flag an error?

21:22 <thelema> The parameter type of a function taking a static array is different from a dynamic array.

21:22 <thelema> That'd likely produce a compile error.

21:22 <palomer> are the heuristics in the language specification?

21:22 <thelema> as I said, Ada compilers are very good at bounds checks - GNAT, the free one, does lots of checks at compile time.

21:25 <EliasAmaral> I think he might like ada because he thinks programming is trivial. When one begins to program, his job is literally done, not because he don't need to but because the hard thing is to define properly your program (but he of course have his own slaves). So syntax just isn't a big issue to him

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21:27 <thelema> The heuristics are probably not in the language specification, but are in the gnat compiler

21:27 <thelema> did elias just diss my programming experience?

21:29 <thelema> palomer: the rules for indexing into arrays are really the rules for range types, in most cases

21:30 <thelema> for your example, if the 12 were only known at runtime, then yes, a Constraint_Error would be raised.

21:33 <orbitz> thelema: elias was taught by internet gurus

21:33 <thelema> :)

21:33 <orbitz> palomer: the size of an arary is stored in its type in C++

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21:34 <thelema> orbitz: can you have a function that only accepts arguments of type int[8]?

21:34 <orbitz> no, but that is because ararys are not first class

21:34 <orbitz> thelema: i belive if you make it a reference you *can* though

21:35 <palomer> orbitz, give me an example

21:35 <orbitz> palomer: an example of which?

21:35 <palomer> of C++ using the size of an array to do something statically

21:36 <orbitz> palomer: peopel use them in tempaltes all teh time

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21:37 <orbitz> http://codepad.org/Mlf0eW3p

21:37 <orbitz> see errors

21:37 <EliasAmaral> you can have something of type a<8> that will only work with a parameter of size 8? (just guessing)

21:38 <EliasAmaral> http://dutherenverseauborddelatable.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/improving-exception-management-in-ocaml/ is simply amazing =o

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21:38 <EliasAmaral> the great think about a macro language is that some smart guy can fix the design errors of the creators

21:39 <palomer> whoa, I didn't know you could do that in C++

21:39 <palomer> I stand humbled

21:39 <palomer> but seriously, how often do C++ programmers do that:P

21:39 <orbitz> palomer: Not too often because A) peple just use a vector unelss they are insane B) a fixed size array isn't particularly useful in a language like C++

21:41 <orbitz> palomer: you can do: template <int N> void foo(int (&a)[N]) though

21:41 <EliasAmaral> yeah I was wondering it was that way

21:43 <orbitz> palomer: http://codepad.org/dIqeVdnl

21:43 <orbitz> palomer: note, you now haev two whole defintinos of foo

21:44 <palomer> but then you're using template as a macro (as opposed to doing static verification on array sizes)

21:44 <palomer> orbitz, that's really insane!

21:44 <palomer> but anyways, every uses vector :)

21:44 <orbitz> :)

21:44 <orbitz> palomer: people use this for metaprogramming though

21:45 <orbitz> palomer: what do you mean by "instead of static verifiation on aray sizes"?

21:46 <palomer> err, I was confused

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21:47 <orbitz> the other problem of coures is that function is useless to you if you do foo = new int[10]; you cannot pass it to that func

21:47 <orbitz> yay C++

21:50 <palomer> I actually like C++

21:50 * thelema doesn't like C++, despite the many things it can do well

21:50 <orbitz> palomer: which 10% do you like?

21:51 <EliasAmaral> orbitz, heh

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21:57 <palomer> stl

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22:38 <Alpounet> palomer, can't think of any, indeed, sorry

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