gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<everyonemines> Someone mentioned perl4caml, a library for putting perl in ocaml, but I can't find much information on it and the site is dead. Does anyone know how that worked?
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<arubin> everyonemines: Sounds like insanity. =P
<everyonemines> No more than perl itself... :-)
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<thelema_> everyonemines: don't know how it worked, but I think you can poke rwmjones about it
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<everyonemines> Suppose you wanted to find a partner for an ocaml project. Where would you go?
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<as> everyonemines: networking, ocaml list, irc
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<everyonemines> is everywhere as active as here?
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<as> he is working for FNMOC
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<everyonemines> who is?
<everyonemines> as: who is?
<adrien> he left, and I have no idea who he meant
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<everyonemines> I've heard that ocaml lost popularity because of lack of concurrent GC....is that really true? Concurrent GC seems almost pointless vs forking.
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<adrien> it seems that it's today's main point of people not liking ocaml
<f[x]> you'll need to find someone with popularity figures to answer that
<adrien> to me, it feels more like some people don't like ocaml and need things to tell other peoples so they stay away from ocaml
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<everyonemines> I mean, the only real advantage of threads seems to be avoiding marshalling to pipes.
<everyonemines> Which isn't that big a deal...?
<adrien> there are several other solutions for that too now
<adrien> recently, putting several ocaml runtimes in the same process and having shared memory between them
<adrien> and one or two others too I think
<everyonemines> Can that be done with the standard ocaml compiler?
<adrien> I don't think it uses a patch
<everyonemines> Anyway, personally I can't see myself wanting to use threads at all. But maybe I'm missing something.
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<larhat> everyonemines: maybe you don't multiply matrix enough :-)
<everyonemines> larhat: Threads are better than calling subprocesses how for that?
<everyonemines> I've done numerical programming.
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<adrien> I think that's what I was looking for: http://blog.camlcity.org/blog/multicore1.html
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<adrien> everyonemines: sometime one, sometime the other
<adrien> it really depends but I can see a use for them
<everyonemines> adrien: interesting
<adrien> I like how netmulticore pretty much invalidates the point against ocaml without introducing many changes and without slowing down single-threaded workloads
<adrien> it seems a bit dangerous to use but I think that you only need some care (and since you're doing parallel stuff, you're already in a dangerous zone)
<adrien> (and it won't get worse)
<everyonemines> well, shared memory is the dangerous part
<adrien> yup, I don't think anything could make absolute wonders
<adrien> ok, have to move now, trying to find a place to live for the next few months (nice thing about being really late with that is that there's no competition anymore)
<ousado> wow, thanks for the pointer
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<agarwal1975> ping: any Batteries people here?
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<thelema> agarwal1975: I am
<agarwal1975> I never quite understood the Batteries module vs Batteries_uni.
<thelema> Ocaml uses a different runtime when compiled with -threads
<thelema> We could force the use of -threads to use batteries, and then we wouldn't need this distinction
<agarwal1975> Sometimes, my code compiles only if I open Batteries and sometimes only if I use Batteries_uni. But all my compile options are the same in both cases. I'm just on a different computer.
<flux> that is indeed quite unfortunate. thelema, was there a solution envisioned for batteries 2.0, or is it just hopeful thinking?
<thelema> I tried really hard to unify the two names, similar to Unix, where there's a threaded version and a non-threaded version
<flux> agarwal1975, are batteries versions also the same?
<agarwal1975> yes
<flux> agarwal1975, maybe some dependency package isn't the same
<flux> and it brings in the threading
<flux> thelema, ..but?
<thelema> flux: but the interfaces aren't the same, so they can't use the same .cmi (which is what unix does)
<flux> thelema, what's different?
<thelema> the presence of BatMutex, etc.
<flux> well, couldn't they just be present?
<thelema> the batteries modules dedicated to threading
<flux> well, maybe not
<flux> threading would at least be sort of bad to be there but asserting false
<thelema> after I stopped owrking on it, I thought of stubbing it
<thelema> but it's an ugly solution
<agarwal1975> but why do we even need two separate modules? No other library does this.
<flux> well, it would be _a_ solution, at least
<thelema> agarwal1975: no other library both depends on threaded operations and wants to not require it.
<flux> thelema, so separate .cmi files for threade/nonthreaded isn't an option?
<agarwal1975> Why do we want to not require it?
<thelema> It'd be not too unreasonable to have just Batteries that requires threads
<thelema> agarwal1975: there is a runtime overhead for the threaded runtime
<thelema> I'm not sure how much.
<thelema> flux: I don't recall the details, but I remember being convinced that a single .cmi file was needed
<larhat> thelema: what about ExtUnix approach, where exist ExtUnix and ExtUnix.Specific (or something like that). and ExtUnix.Specific contains values, that not unix systems have.
<flux> thelema, the only advantage I can see that it reduces the amount of compilation when switching between threaded/nonthreaded, but I don't see that being a big benefit..
<thelema> larhat: I don't see how that would help with the threading problem
<flux> I think it's very reasonable to not provide symbol Thread.x at all, if there's no threading
<thelema> I think I'll just punt and require threads. It'll apparently make peoples' lives easier
<agarwal1975> Yes, unless someone can show significant performance loss.
<thelema> maybe the performance loss is only in bytecode, which means it's probably not important
<agarwal1975> But I imagine other library authors would have been concerned about this if it really was an issue.
<agarwal1975> yeah, if you need performance, then bytecode is anyway not an option.
<thelema> well, on some platforms, it's the only option.
<agarwal1975> oh. which ones?
<thelema> there's a specific list of platforms with support for native compilation, but bytecode works on any POSIX-compliant system with a C compiler
<agarwal1975> I see. thanks.
<agarwal1975> It seems like a corner case that someone would be on a platform not supported with native code, and they would be concerned about performance, and that the non-threads version provides a significant gain.
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<thelema> very odd - I'm tweaking batteries to remove the non-threaded option, and the resulting .cmxa seems to be missing BatteriesConfig when it's clearly in the batteries.mllib
<thelema> huh, batteries.cmxa is only 54KB - somehow it's being stubbed?
<thelema> is a stub .cmxa built as part of the process of building a .cmxs?
<thelema> I never noticed the size of .cmxa files before - is this normal?
<agarwal1975> The cmxa in my biocaml library is just 15K. The cmxs is 530K.
<thelema> is your .a file about the same size as the .cmxs?
<agarwal1975> No, the .a file is 1.0M.
<thelema> hmm...
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<thelema> ah, found the problem. .mllib files behave oddly when they reference a module that doesn't exist.
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<thelema> agarwal1975: if you are willing to try the v2 branch, it's now threads only, and always uses "open Batteries"
<agarwal1975> thanks! I'll have to try it a bit later. I'm preparing a tutorial for CUFP right now, and can't risk messing up my setup.
<thelema> no problem. Let me know if you have any problem
<thelema> s
<agarwal1975> great. thanks for the instant work on it!
<thelema> Since I've poked around in that code a bunch, it wasn't too difficult a change.
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<DimitryKakadu> hallo
<DimitryKakadu> who have compiled newest JS core?
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<DimitryKakadu> where can I find type-con 3.0.3?
<thelema> ocamlcore?
<thelema> if you find it, you can upload it here: http://oasis.ocamlcore.org/dev/view/type-conv/latest
<adrien> DimitryKakadu: btw, good work for lablqt =)
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<thelema> DimitryKakadu: is it here? https://forge.ocamlcore.org/scm/?group_id=252
<DimitryKakadu> thelema: better here, https://forge.ocamlcore.org/frs/?group_id=252
<thelema> okay then.
<DimitryKakadu> man, any ideas? http://paste.in.ua/3037/
<DimitryKakadu> some magic is needed
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<thelema> what? where's the error?
<DimitryKakadu> I don't know
<thelema> very odd. L7 is make saying that ocamlbuild quit, but where's ocamlbuild's error?
<thelema> maybe in _build/_log?
<DimitryKakadu> I cant see any concrete errors
<DimitryKakadu> no any concrete
<thelema> wow. that's magical.
<thelema> you can `cd _build`, and then run the last command to see what happens
<thelema> maybe the error log was sent to stdout instead of stderr, and it's in lib/pa_type_conv.ml.depends
<DimitryKakadu> Parse error: illegal begin of quotation of module type
<thelema> aha.
<thelema> now how to fix that... got me. Double check the requirements of type-conv 3.0.3, maybe it needs newer ocaml
<DimitryKakadu> we should fix README.txt
<DimitryKakadu> ocaml 3.12.1 needed
<DimitryKakadu> PR#5172: camlp4 support for 'module type of' construct
<thelema> there you go.
<Anarchos> why can't i put "open Functor(Module)" in the preamble of an ocamlyacc file ?
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<thelema> Anarchos: you can't do that in a regular file either, can you?
<Anarchos> thelema yes i can
<Anarchos> hmmm let me try
<thelema> Since the module system is nominally typed, I think you need a name for the application of a functor.
<Anarchos> thelema you're right, i must give a name to B(A) in order do be able to open it
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<DimitryKakadu> thelema: I think thats magical error mesage is typical for oasis
<DimitryKakadu> now the same with core_extended
<thelema> possibly it's more ocamlbuild's fault, doing the output redirection as it does.
<DimitryKakadu> maybe. I know ocamlbuild very little
<DimitryKakadu> http://paste.in.ua/3040/ help please
<bobry> anyone using kaputt here? unfortunately, i can't get it to work on my Arch Linux :/
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<thelema> DimitryKakadu: sorry, I'm no good with camlp4 errors
<thelema> bobry: what's the error?
<thelema> bobry: (fwiw, I don't use kaputt)
<bobry> thelema: toplevel can't find module Kaputt, even though it loads "kaputt.cma" correctly
<thelema> bobry: Kaputt doesn't define a module Kaputt
<thelema> (unless it's packed, which wouldn't show up in these docs)
<thelema> bobry: how are you loading kaputt.cma?
<Anarchos> thelema what is packing ?
<thelema> Anarchos: separately compiled modules can be packed by the compiler into a virtual parent module
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<Anarchos> thelema ok thanks
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<Anarchos> i made a formal math prover in ocaml :)
<Anarchos> well only verifier to be precise
<thelema> Anarchos: I'm looking for a program that, given a boolean formula, determines the minimal number of variables to be set true to make this formula true.
<thelema> is this far from what you've done?
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<Anarchos> thelema yes it is far
<Anarchos> thelema you need a SAT solver
<thelema> Anarchos: well, I really need a MinCostSAT solver. An ordinary SAT solver isn't necessary, my formulas are always satisfied when all variables are true.
<thelema> just checking if what you're doing could be useful for an upcoming research topic
<Anarchos> thelema well i think not, it will just be useful to verify coherency of demonstrations
<NaCl> I was about to suggest a "libsatsolver" except it's for package management. xD
<thelema> NaCl: :) I just found DPT and an 80-line sat solver in OCaml here: http://www.satlive.org/satkwd.jsp?kwd=130
<NaCl> ah, yes. ocaml.
<NaCl> how compact of it. :
<NaCl> p
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<flapjackery> are there any good compsci channels on any IRC networks?
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