gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<Drakken> anybody home?
<_habnabit> certainly not 104 people
<Drakken> How are things going with oasis? Are we still waiting for it?
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<thelema> Drakken: it works. bench uses it for its build system
<Drakken> Do I have to download it?
<thelema> oops, I left the setup.ml requiring oasis...
<thelema> right - that's the problem?
<thelema> I just build it using odb: https://github.com/thelema/odb
<NaCl> adrien: I was actually thinking about adding that later
<thelema> Drakken: curl -O https://raw.github.com/thelema/odb/master/odb.ml && ocaml odb.ml oasis
<Drakken> so oasis-db is up and running but oasis isn't bundled with the ocaml installation?
<Drakken> thelema could you explain why I would want to do that?
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<Drakken> or I can just figure it out and bug you some more tomorrow.
<thelema> Drakken: I'm back
<thelema> oasis-db is up and in *beta*
<thelema> the server has been flaky lately, and the company behind it has had its only employee hired by google.
<thelema> oasis is also in early beta, and development has stalled for the same reason.
<thelema> This said, an ocaml distribution that packages the compiler, oasis and odb isn't a bad idea.
<thelema> lastly, that command downloads odb.ml and uses that to download and install oasis
<thelema> (plus all of oasis' dependencies)
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<Drakken> thelema I got the mechanics of the command, I'm just asking why: what does oasis do, what does odb do, how do they interact, which do I use to download software, is odb.ml the closest thing there is right now to a standard installation process, or is there some other standard but it's not as good...line break
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<Drakken> ... and is there anything else I should about to install software. I'm just trying to get a feel for what the current state of things is.
<thelema> okay...
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<thelema> odb downloads and installs packages from oasis-db
<thelema> as far as standard installation processes, "configure && make && make install" is as much a standard that ocaml has
<Drakken> also, I can ask again tomorrow if that works better for you
<thelema> some libraries have [make opt] and [make byte] targets to make just native code or bytecode
<Drakken> I mean the standard for getting stuff from oasis-db
<thelema> oasis does two things (from what I understand). 1) it keeps package metadata (author, license, etc)
<Drakken> I know about cpan and cabal, but now I have two programs, odb and oasis.
<thelema> odb is the only automated way to download and install packages from oasis-db
<Drakken> what does oasis do?
<thelema> oasis was meant to be more like cabal
<Drakken> but cabal is the tool I use to download stuff
<Drakken> oh wait, I guess it's cabal-install
<Drakken> oops
<thelema> the second thing oasis does is produce a setup.ml script that will do everything needed for configuring, building and installing a package
<thelema> I don't know cabal, and only have experience with cpan for installing packages, not creating a cpan package
<thelema> so odb is like cabal-install, and oasis is like cabal?
<Drakken> yes?
<Drakken> I guess it must be.
<thelema> odb is like cpan-lite for downloading packages.
<Drakken> but I definitely remember using cpan to download
<Drakken> perl stuff
<Drakken> so what's the status of odb.ml?
<Drakken> is that the l33test way of installing odb?
<thelema> it's stable. There's some ideas for adding functionality, and plenty of limitations, but it works for a lot of oasis-db packages
<thelema> odb doesn't need any inistallation - it's a single file. I copy it to my ~/bin directory and chmod 755 it
<Drakken> shouldn't odb be included in the ocaml distribution?
<thelema> odb was created since the last release of ocaml (iirc). Official support for odb would imply official support for oasis-db, which could entail a lot more work for the ocaml compiler authors
<thelema> There's some more work coming from the ocaml community to build ocaml distributions (especially for windows), and I guess I should contact their developers to get odb included.
<Drakken> is there any question of (not) supporting oasis-db, or is just not integrated w/the distribution yet?
<thelema> many people don't use odb for installing packages; there's a previous system called GODI that is more complete and has its own set of packages.
<thelema> GODI is more complete than odb in that godi can install simultaneous versions of ocaml with different sets of packages simultaneously in a system
<thelema> (yes, GODI can install ocaml itself)
<thelema> odb is much simpler, assuming that ocaml and findlib are already installed, but it doesn't assume that the user has permission to install into the system-wide findlib dir.
<thelema> so it allows local installations of packages
<thelema> (by default)
<thelema> GODI doesn't support oasis at all, and uses its own metadata format, godiva
<Drakken> so does it depend on which system each project author supported?
<thelema> otoh, oasis is probably better than GODI, as it provides tools to automatically generate a cross-platform build system from its _oasis file
<thelema> actually, most project authors historically haven't supported either, and godi people have (afaik) forked each package with a few extra patches each time they added it to GODI
<thelema> oasis is new, so a few newer projects have started with _oasis build systems
<thelema> oasis also retrofits onto existing systems reasonably, with a way to attach to an existing build system.
<Drakken> I saw an oasis line in one of the archimedes files. I'm just trying to figure out the right/best way to install it w/all its dependencies.
<thelema> oasis-db doesn't require an oasis file, and odb supports makefiles, omakefiles and oasis build systems
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<thelema> Drakken: the best way to install archimedes is 1) install lablgtk2 using findlib, 2) use odb to install archimedes (and the rest of the deps)
<Drakken> Okay, that's fine.
<Drakken> The first line of INSTALL.txt in the archimedes download says [(* OASIS START *)]
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<Drakken> The second line has a "digest" number, looks suspiciously similar (also commented)
<Drakken> Now how do I figure out the installation procedure for other packages in general without having to annoy you every time?
<thelema> that means it was auto-generated by oasis from the _oasis
<thelema> If the package has an _oasis file, the installation is likely "ocaml setup.ml -configure", "-build", "-install"
<thelema> if the package has an OCamlMake file, the installation is "omake" "omake install"
<thelema> otherwise, it's configure, make, make install
<thelema> as for deps, if you're not using GODI or odb, then you're resolving deps by hand
<thelema> running odb with no arguments will list the packages that odb can install
<Drakken> Sorry, I don't mean installation literally, I mean downloading and dependencies
<Drakken> okay, I guess that's a good start
<Drakken> so if it's not in the list, try godi or download manually & read INSTALL?
<Drakken> (for dependencies)
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<thelema> godi isn't really something you can try - it takes over and manages your whole ocaml system
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<thelema> as far as hunting down packages, the ocaml hump is an officially maintained list of packages
<thelema> and detecting dependencies - I usually just run 'make' and if it fails, I try to figure out the dep from the error.
<Drakken> oh great...
<thelema> yes, this is why I'm helping gildor with oasis - ocaml has some parts that are still in the dark ages
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<thelema> library management is still one of those; despite all the good work with findlib, there's still too many important libraries that don't even ocamlfind install
<Drakken> good enough. have I pestered you enough for one day?
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<Drakken> anyway, I think I have enough info to keep busy for a while.
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<JdpB42> hello
<dsheets> hello
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<sgnb> flux: it was a coincidence
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<_michi_> Hi all, I am looking for help to build camlimages from source.
<_michi_> with the omake way
<_michi_> any helpful soul on there?
<_habnabit> maybe if you ask a question
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<_michi_> ok let's do that :)
<_michi_> I want to port camlimages to FreeBSD and therefore need to translate the make configure ; make all; make install mantra in omake parlance
<_michi_> I could achieve build of camilages with omake install
<_michi_> but I need to split installation and build procedure
<_michi_> and got no clue from the OMakefile
<_michi_> so is there a more or less well established to require the build of files
<_michi_> ?
<_michi_> the obvious `omake all` did not make it
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<_habnabit> is there a setup.ml file?
<_michi_> no there is not: in the op directory I have OMakefile, OMakeroot and OMyMakeroot, the latters are included by the former (AFAIU)
<_michi_> s/op direcectory/top directory/
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<gildor> thelema: why the server has been flaky lately ?
<adrien> _michi_: first, which version of camlimages are you using? from which website
<adrien> NaCl: about pausing and more advanced job control in flamel, it's mostly because I've triggered a lot of genome creations by mistake and it's still rendering (12 done out of 20 or 21
<adrien> )
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<sgnb> _michi_: why would you need to do anything special for FreeBSD?
<_michi_> yes the latest from the website
<_michi_> in FreeBSD software is supposed to be *built then installed
<sgnb> as everywhere else
<_michi_> *there is nothing very special here
<_michi_> yes I just to want to separate the steps
<_michi_> because I need to
<sgnb> _michi_: this might help: http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-ocaml-maint/packages/camlimages.git;a=blob;f=debian/rules
<sgnb> (or the package from anywhere else)
<sgnb> "omake" to build, and "omake install" to install seems enough
<sgnb> and this works on our kfreebsd ports
<sgnb> (which is what is advertised in INSTALL.txt, btw)
<_michi_> well omake all merely processes OMakefiles
<_michi_> well the build procedure in INSTALL.txt results in two steps
<_michi_> 1. configure
<_michi_> 2. build & install
<_michi_> and I need top split 2 in pieces
<sgnb> and what prevents you?
<_michi_> I do not know how to do build just build & install
<sgnb> running just "omake" builds
<sgnb> and "omake install" just installs if you built before
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<_michi_> Oh you are damn right! But omake *all* will not build the package!
<_michi_> while the sole omake command does
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<sgnb> where did you get "omake all" from? I didn't see a reference to an "all" target anywhere
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<_michi_> well it was just a wild guess
<_michi_> and this does not yield an error
<_michi_> as does `omake configure`
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<vivanov> how to sleep for fractions of a second?
<vivanov> Thread.delay i guess
<reynir> I have a huge Makefile that uses ocamlfind and ocamlbuild
<reynir> And I want to hack in a preprocessor for my DSL
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<_michi_> reynir: what is a DSL?
<reynir> syntax extension*
<sgnb> vivanov: Unix.selecet
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<sgnb> Unix.select [] [] []
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<_michi_> AFAIU omake also provides the services usually supported by the ./configure script.
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<_michi_> How can I debug the tests done by this part
<_michi_> ?
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<vivanov> sgnb: thx -- what is the difference between select and Thread.delay ?
<f[x]> Thread.delay takess less keystrokes
<vivanov> f[x]: :):) ok ic
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<sgnb> vivanov: you don't need threads to use Unix.select :-)
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<vivanov> sgnb: neat. thx
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<gildor> f[x]: seems up
<gildor> f[x]: has been done for 15 minutes at 13:20
<f[x]> indeed
<f[x]> I was lucky :)
<gildor> f[x]: reboot
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<f[x]> gildor, oasis darcs tests are failing
<f[x]> due to seutp.ml --enable-all --disable-over options failing
<f[x]> not sure what did that options mean
<f[x]> hm, looks like test/data/bug938 misses some files or something
<f[x]> and btw BUILDFLAGS="-j 0" gives some speed up - should be default I guess
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<thelema> gildor: I say the server has been flaky lately because over the last month, many times it has had problems where it has been unreachable
<gildor> thelema: there was a crash on Nov. 1st and Nov. 18
<gildor> thelema: did you notice other crashes ? you should ping me (by email) when it happens
<gildor> f[x]: make fixperms
<f[x]> gildor, now it is ok, probably it should have some warning somewhere
<f[x]> _should_ :)
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<NaCl> adrien: indeed. xD
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<gildor> f[x]: yep
<gildor> thelema: I am willing to maintain the server in good shape, but it is a lot of work
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<gildor> thelema: but basically it will probably boil down to asking OVH people to replace the server or upgrading
* gildor think that there is a failing hardware in the server, probably the NIC
<thelema> no insult intended, I'm just stating my perception.
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<gildor> thelema: no insult taken, we are all working toward making the OCaml community thrive a little more
<gildor> thelema: but tell me when things gets wrong
<thelema> as you wish.
<adrien> NaCl: and laptop crashed so I lost the ones that hadn't been rendered yet so I'll add some kind of loading from a file hierarchy
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<adrien> I think I'll first add better up/down-scaling
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<NaCl> adrien: indeed. xD
<adrien> and a wrapper for remote-rendering
<adrien> shouldn't take long =)
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<Kakadu> men, When I'm compiling oasis it wants a tool `ocamlmod`. apt-cache doesn't know about it. Where should I look?
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<thelema> Kakadu: can you use odb to install oasis (and all its deps)?
<Kakadu> thelema: or better wait for newest oasis in debian repository....
<Kakadu> debian or slackware way. tercium non gratum )
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<Kakadu> tertium*
<adrien> did I hear "slackware"? /o\ 
<Kakadu> thelema: thanks a lot!
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<hcarty> thelema: There was some talk in the Batteries world about adding something along the lines of type comparison_t = Less_than | Equal | Greater_than along with modules and functions to use this type (rather than <0, 0, >0)
<thelema> hcarty: yes, gasche has a prototype in it.
<hcarty> thelema: Do you think that will make it into 2.0?
<thelema> since it can go in 2.1, there's no big hurry for 2.0
<hcarty> That works out well
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<_habnabit> well, for once in a few weeks, some code I'm proud of writing: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/jBBNPUTRY3zWzb6F1BKj/
<_habnabit> it makes me smile whenever I look at it.
<bitbckt> nice. :)
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<Anarchos> _habnabit clever
<Anarchos> _habnabit you remove 1 element from l1 and 2 from l2, so number of items removed from l1 is the half of lenght of l2 (+/-1 for odd length), is that the correct analysis ?
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<_habnabit> right
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<Anarchos> _habnabit but it is not python ;)
<_habnabit> indeed it isn't
<Anarchos> _habnabit my first order proof verifier is in good shape
<Anarchos> _habnabit thanks to curry-howard, it is easy to do propositional lenghty proofs
<Drakken> Hello, caml coders.
<Anarchos> Drakken hi
<Drakken> What's the point of creating a local scope without binding anything? i.e. [let _ = ...] or [let () = ...]
<adrien> do you have a longer example code?
<Drakken> let () =
<Drakken> Arg.parse cmd_line push_install "ocaml odb.ml [--sudo] [<packages>]";
<Drakken> if !repository <> "stable" && !repository <> "testing" && !repository <> "unstable" then (print_endline "Error: Repository must be stable, testing or unstable."; exit 1);
<Drakken> if !godi then print_endline "GODI_LOCALBASE detected, using it for installs";
<Drakken> ()
<Drakken> from odb.ml
<adrien> I guess it's the entry point for the program
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<adrien> since all top-level statements are evaluated at program startup, this '()' gets evaluated and therefore, the code it "contains" gets evaluated
<Anarchos> Drakken for side effects : let () = read_entry ....
<Drakken> that's in thelema's github repository
<adrien> if you have only function declarations in your code, ocaml will happily return immediately
<Anarchos> Drakken just spot the "Arg.parse cmd_line ..." at the beginning :)
<Drakken> Anarchos okay I spotted it. Now what?
<Anarchos> as adrien said this is I/O, executed when the "let () =" definition is evaluated
<Drakken> as opposed to what?
<Drakken> What happens without the scope?
<hcarty> Drakken: If it works, you would probably need ;; after that block
<thelema> at the toplevel, `foo;;bar;;` is valid, also `let () = foo let () = bar`
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<Drakken> so it's just a syntactic alternative to the double semicolons?
<thelema> more or less
<thelema> at the toplevel, at least.
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<Drakken> In the makefile of the emacs subdirectory of the ocaml installation directory tree...
<Drakken> The install target sets the variable xxx, then tests $$2.
<Drakken> And it's surprised when it doesn't find anything.
<Drakken> in ocaml 3.12.1
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<djcoin> Hi all/Bonjour :) Im looking for the best book (pdf or printed) I may find to start learning OCaml, I speak french and I have some background in Python, Javascript, C, already tried caml at school
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<djcoin> Thanks a lot for any insights !
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<brendan> don't know them all, but I liked the jason hickey book
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<Qrntzz> I, for one, enjoyed practical ocaml by smith
<djcoin> Thanks !
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<bitbckt> the Hickey book and the O'Reilly France book (as you speak French) are good. Practical OCaml is widely held to be terribly written.
<bitbckt> and, obviously, the official manual.
<bitbckt> djcoin: ^^
<djcoin> All right, im currently reading Introduction to Ocaml by Hickey
<djcoin> bitbckt: the Développement d'applications avec Objective Caml book ?
<djcoin> are you french btw ?
<djcoin> just curious :)
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<bitbckt> djcoin: Yes, that book. No, I'm not French.
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<djcoin> ok, thanks! - you just escaped several questions about 'jobs' in ocaml - :)
<bitbckt> I'll breathe a sigh of relief at my escape.
<djcoin> nice acting :)
<bitbckt> hehe
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