gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<Drakken> everyonemines I'm more familiar with Lisp macros.
<Drakken> But this stuff about transforming code sounds like something that macros would be good for.
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<smango> http://pastie.org/2936588 it says syntax error on line 7 but I have no clue why, line 7 looks just like every line above it
<_habnabit> Queue isn't a type; it's a module
<_habnabit> you probably mean Queue.t
<everyonemines> You could do type queue = Queue.t if that's less confusing.
<_habnabit> (nearly everything follows the Module.t convention though)
<everyonemines> Yes, true.
<smango> got it, thanks :)
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<smango> sorry, have another syntax error I can't figure out, I think I might be using try...with wrong http://pastie.org/2936680
<smango> ah nevermind I got it
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<JdpB42> anyone have experience with ocsigen?
<JdpB42> how was it lately?
<taupin> hard to install and to use, funny to play with
<JdpB42> looks like it has a new website
<taupin> (you should also join #ocsigen)
<JdpB42> i think some of the docs were improved
<taupin> (oh, you did, nevermind)
<JdpB42> hehe
<taupin> JdpB42: Ocsigen is a surprising framework ; the demo application (Graffiti) is a complicated and advanced example, but on the other hand the framework really lacks libraries to build more traditional websites
<JdpB42> i see
<JdpB42> i do mostly php honeslty for work
<JdpB42> always liked ocaml
<JdpB42> taupin: hmmm
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<JdpB42> taupin: everyone complains about php ....but honestly besides python and ruby there isn't much competition ....this thing seems heavily over thought
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<_habnabit> php is dying, at least
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<JdpB42> _habnabit: it is?
<_habnabit> oh yes. lots of momentum away from it and towards saner languages.
<JdpB42> _habnabit: php is still the most popular web language there is ....and many php projects are growing steadily
<_habnabit> well on its way to being a legacy-development-only language.
<JdpB42> that is incorrect, if anything rails and django have lost momentum in the past year or so
<_habnabit> what's a 'web language'? if your choices are between, like, php and coldfusion then okay
<JdpB42> how can you say that when for instance Drupal for instance is the most widely used CMS right now ....that wasn't true 3 years ago ....now its being used by some of the top sites on the internet
<JdpB42> i'm just playing devils advocate ...not trying to disagree
<_habnabit> no, seriously. what's a 'web language'
<JdpB42> stop it
<JdpB42> _habnabit: i will not be belittled
<_habnabit> I want to know what you meant by that
<JdpB42> php is a general purpose programming language that leans heavily towards web
<JdpB42> ^^
<_habnabit> ha ha, no, php is not general-purpose.
<JdpB42> ....
<JdpB42> that is not true
<_habnabit> of course it's general purpose! that's why you have to wrap all of your CLI programs and libraries in <?php tags
<JdpB42> ....so go change the wiki
<JdpB42> i mean ...look ...its not as used as a general purpose like that because its mostly a web based language
<JdpB42> it was designed for that purpose
<_habnabit> yes. 'designed for that purpose'. you can abuse it to do 'general purpose' things.
<_habnabit> you can't be designed for a purpose and general purpose
<JdpB42> i don't get emotional with langauges btw ...i'm agnostic ...i like python, i like ruby, i like php
<JdpB42> but to say php is becoming legacy is insane!!!
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<JdpB42> top sites on the internet are php, java, and .net .....php is still a major player
<JdpB42> and in some ways for good reasons
<_habnabit> sure, and lots of business code is still written in COBOL and FORTRAN
<JdpB42> its not even something you can compare like that
<JdpB42> PHP is still modern and continues to evolve
<JdpB42> you seem to have a hate .....again emotional
<JdpB42> don't get emotional over programming languages ....
<_habnabit> yes, because I've seen too many people brain damaged by php. it's an objectively bad language that does nothing but harm new programmers.
<JdpB42> Python has its fair share of web development pains
<JdpB42> well i'm not new by any means, i guess i was sparred
<JdpB42> spared*
<JdpB42> but again many of the most popular websites developed *today* are still being written in PHP
<JdpB42> look at all the php frameworks , cake, codeigniter, symfony >> all have user bases much larger than python and ruby frameworks of the same type
<JdpB42> not to mention the cms framework systems like drupal ....which has a community probably 2-4x the size of django per se
<_habnabit> you do understand how legacy development works, right? there's been enough time sunk into an existing thing that it takes less effort to continue using the same language and code base.
<_habnabit> also where are you getting these numbers
<JdpB42> which?
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<_habnabit> "user bases much larger", "a community probably 2-4x the size", etc.
<JdpB42> have you not been paying attention to the popularity of Drupal? had what the largest conference in north america last year for technolgoy outside of oreilly or something like that?
<JdpB42> whitehouse.gov ... << drupal ....ebay uses it ....amazon uses it heavily ....etc etc
<JdpB42> and drupal continually gets more and more popular
<JdpB42> django and rails per se ....have went on a decline because people figured out it wasn't the langauge nor framework that made it special ...it was purely mvc and a good framework
<JdpB42> which many languages have implemented
<JdpB42> _habnabit: again i'm not over here defending php as a great language of the future ....I'm just saying ....lying to make yourself feel better does not make it true
<JdpB42> now with facebook doing all that stuff with php and working with core dev's and stuff ...its sorta helped php core development alot
<JdpB42> PHP has a ton of life left in it
<_habnabit> okay? inventing numbers doesn't make it true either
<JdpB42> go look at for one just the irc room in general
<JdpB42> #drupal and #drupal-support and #drupal-contribute and #drupal-themes
<JdpB42> combined these all have more users than probably all python frameworks combined
<JdpB42> and thats just one framework
<_habnabit> 'combined' doesn't make any sense; users can be in multiple channels.
<JdpB42> drupal channels do not usually work like that
<JdpB42> which is why they split them up heavily
<JdpB42> django still does not have one huge example behind it really
<JdpB42> and i like django
<JdpB42> but they overcomplicated many aspects of it
<_habnabit> django is terrible.
<JdpB42> and the other ones which are lighter , werk and pylons etc ...are not rad enough to make them practical for many companies
<JdpB42> people don't want to reinvent the wheel anymore _habnabit
<_habnabit> werkzeug is not a framework and pylons has been superseded.
<JdpB42> pyramid or what not , i remember
<taupin> JdpB42: I'm not arguing wether OCaml is a better technology for web development or not
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<JdpB42> _habnabit: i prefer python over php btw
<taupin> JdpB42: OCaml is a well-designed language, and Ocsigen gives me the ability to use it for web programming
<JdpB42> but framework wise, they have all lost popularity to some degree, django more than others probably ....eventually they will just be like zope
<_habnabit> also #python has twice as many users as ##php
<JdpB42> a smaller dedicated base
<taupin> but it's only a personal thought, you know :)
<_habnabit> even #rubyonrails has more people in it than #django
<_habnabit> er
<_habnabit> than ##php
<JdpB42> btw ....
<JdpB42> the ##php channel is not a place most php go ....usually goto the sub channels because they dont allow any talk but *core* php and you learn that quickly
<_habnabit> also #rubyonrails has more users than all of those drupal channels you mentioned combined
<_habnabit> #django has more than #drupal-support, too
<_habnabit> ha. even #go-nuts has more users than #drupal-support
<JdpB42> uhh
<JdpB42> are you cherry picking _habnabit
<JdpB42> #drupal itself has 513
<_habnabit> what would I be cherry picking
<JdpB42> which is the main one ...support is for more involved stuff / longer convo's
<_habnabit> I don't see that on the channel list
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<JdpB42> also as i said #codeigniter #zftalk etc etc ....add them up ....its all besides the point ...if you believe python is more popular than php right now for web ...thats fine
<_habnabit> pretty sure I never said that, but okay !
<JdpB42> seems that what you were implying
<_habnabit> what did I say that even remotely implied that
<JdpB42> i would say Drupal is the most single popular web "thing" out right now ...above any framework or anything
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<JdpB42> if i did python only i would be broke
<_habnabit> I'm a professional ocaml developer and I make more than any php developer I know :V
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<JdpB42> what is that if i may ask?
<JdpB42> 2ndly you know how rare it is to have an ocaml job? jeesh
<_habnabit> yes, exactly
<JdpB42> you would only get that through someone in here or knowing someone etc
<JdpB42> being a contractor i would starve once again
<JdpB42> although i do like ocaml .....i would saying for doing web dev i would prefer php ....much less headaches if done correctly ....this eliom makes my head hurt
<Kakadu> Eliom is nice!
<JdpB42> its just not rad
<JdpB42> and speed is everything in my business
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<Kakadu> something strange binding errors: http://paste.in.ua/3381/raw/. Any ideas?
<adrien> Kakadu: line numbers?
<adrien> well, should be doable since it starts at 0
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<adrien> and don't you need camllocal?
<adrien> also, you might want to put the GCC-specific stuff (attributes) into some #define
<adrien> which can be defined to nothing on some platforms
<Kakadu> http://paste.in.ua/3381/ with line numbers
<Kakadu> lines 10-19 are expanded CAMLlocal3(camlobj,_ans,meth);
<adrien> missing header?
<Kakadu> what header?
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<adrien> mlvalues.h I think
<adrien> but probably not that
<adrien> could you compile with -Wshadow -Wextra?
<Kakadu> adrien: no new information with this options of g=+
<Kakadu> +
<adrien> and why is CAMLparam0(); not expanded?
<Kakadu> I've expanded it manually
<adrien> you can use gcc -E
<adrien> -E Stop after the preprocessing stage; do not run the compiler proper.
<adrien> also, what if you don't declare the "meth" parameter?
<Kakadu> I know
<Kakadu> I've done -CC -E and copy and pasted code
<adrien> ok
<Kakadu> adrien: if u have some time u can try http://paste.in.ua/3384
<adrien> why rm -rf?
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<Kakadu> Yeah! Internet is up again
<Kakadu> adrien: have I missed something?
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<yezariaely> Kakadu: As I was online all the time: no you did not
<Kakadu> yezariaely: thx
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<merijn> Does ocaml support GADTs?
<Kakadu> merijn: from version 3.12 afair
<Kakadu> merijn: from version 3.13 afair
<merijn> Kakadu: ok, thanks
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<merijn> hmm, is there any tutorial/guide for ocaml's GADT syntax? I can't seem to find anything useful using Google
<merijn> The GADT stuff I find uses a syntax like "type _ t = Lit : 'a -> 'a t", but this produces a syntax error for me and I can't find whether I need to use different syntax, add some flag to the compiler or whatever
<merijn> So the only way to figure it out is to reverse engineer the syntax from Oleg's code? :\
<nixfreak> there are examples on that site
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<bnwr> nixfreak: I heard you had problems installing ocsigen on arch
<bnwr> I started replying to you in #ocsigen about that
<nixfreak> k very good be right there
<merijn> nixfreak: Yeah, I found that on Google as well, but like usual I feel I'm about a hundred IQ points of understanding anything Oleg writes
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<merijn> nixfreak: Yeah, that was the first site I found and tried, but that produces a syntax error. Thanks anyway
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<adrien> Kakadu: had to leave; also I had the issue too and don't really have an idea
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<mbac> scumbag omake
<mbac> says it has N files to compile
<mbac> INCREASES THE NUMBER WHILE COMPILING
<f[x]> discovers dynamic dependencies
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<adrien> Kakadu: haven't found but when did the error started to appear?
<adrien> is it a regression or does it stem from a new feature?
<adrien> Kakadu: also, see http://git.tukaani.org/?p=xz.git;a=blob;f=configure.ac;hb=HEAD#l632 : you should enable all possible warnings for your bindings, it'll help: compared to this list, remove -Wstrict-prototypes and -Wbad-function-cast and add -Woverloaded-virtual -Wsign-promo
<Kakadu> adrien: maybe it is regression after https://github.com/Kakadu/lablqt/commit/f3604f39c00ab76298839af040b172026b3ed1bf but i'm not 100% sure
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<adrien> Kakadu: ok, will take a look when I come back
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<adrien> also, do you have a bindings that are hand-written? something like three classes which inherit from each others and two methods in each
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<adrien> it could be useful to pinpoint issues earlier
<adrien> s/earlier/better/
<Kakadu> I think lablqt/inher is the closest example to your definition
<Kakadu> adrien: ^^
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<adrien> Kakadu: does it have the issue?
<Kakadu> no
<Kakadu> I'm suprised why QWidget_twin.h doesn't have this issue, but QSpinBox_twin.h do
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<zorun> nixfreak: pong
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<zorun> nixfreak: still having trouble building ocsigen?
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<adrien> ouch: mono hurts
<adrien> "let x = 42;;" in the toplevel of f# takes 1 to 2 seconds to run on my laptop the first time it's executed
<adrien> and defining a non-tail-rec version of the factorial takes more than 2 seconds, maybe more than 3
<taupin> I once found a (correct) OCaml code that made Mono crash :]
<adrien> I had mono crash during build at first actually
<adrien> their 2.10.2 version (or something like that) wasn't good
<thelema> thanks for reminding me why I use ocaml and not F#
<adrien> I'll have to do ".net" tomorrow
<adrien> figured I'd better do F# on mono on my slackware install instead of C# on the .net framework on windows on a computer that isn't mine
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<adrien> hahaha: "type t = | Int of int | Float of float;;" triggered 3 seconds of CPU time :P
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<adrien> it's actually quite depressing and frustruatin: I got used to ocaml's speed of interpreting/compiling
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<abdallah> type ('a, 'b) choice = Left of 'a | Right of 'b
<abdallah> let map_left f t = match t with | Left a -> Left (f a) | Right _ -> t
<abdallah> The previous function doesn't type.
<abdallah> Or rather it does not with the type I'd like to have which is "('a -> 'c) -> ('a, 'b) t -> ('c, 'b) t"
<abdallah> The inferred type is "('a -> 'a) -> ('a, 'b) t -> ('a, 'b) t"
<abdallah> I think I understand why this is happening (btw I'm using 3.11).
<abdallah> The solution to have the correct type is to replace "| Right _ -> t" with "| Right b -> Right b"
<abdallah> I think it makes one more allocation so it might be undesirable for very efficient code.
<abdallah> Is there any better solution in ocaml 3.11?
<abdallah> Is there any better solution in ocaml 3.13 with gadts? (I think so, but I haven't fully understood gadts yet)
<abdallah> (I asked this question yesterday, but I didn't get any answer yet)
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<_habnabit> abdallah, worry about it when it's slow
<thelema> abdallah: There's a solution in 3.11 involving obj.magic-ing t to make the types work out
<abdallah> Ok, I see.
<abdallah> But if the function map_left was more complicated, I would probably not want to trust my using of Obj.magic.
<adrien> I don't know why but using this seems to work for me (disclaimer: my eyes might be off): | Right _ as t -> t
<thelema> abdallah: I don't know enough about GADTs to know how to fix this with them, but I think this is possible
<abdallah> Yes, it seems very plausible
<adrien> (I mostly used that because I used the function -> construct instead of explicitly naming the t parameter)
<_habnabit> adrien, yeah, I was going to try that next
<_habnabit> and yes, it does fix it
<_habnabit> # let map_left: 'a 'b 'c. ('a -> 'b) -> ('a, 'c) choice -> ('b, 'c) choice = fun f t -> match t with | Left a -> Left (f a) | Right _ as t -> t;;
<_habnabit> val map_left : ('a -> 'b) -> ('a, 'c) choice -> ('b, 'c) choice = <fun>
<thelema> adrien: hmm, if that works, it's probably the right solution
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<abdallah> Oh perfect thanks!
<abdallah> I didn't think about using "as" to avoid reconstructing the term, also I use it often in other situations...
<adrien> now, if someone had an explanation...
<adrien> bedtime :P
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<merijn> The only way to force certain types on the compiler is to specify the in a .mli file (which is not used by the REPL), right?
<thelema> merijn: in 3.12, polymorphic types can be forced
<thelema> merijn: the .mli file just specifies a module signature - this functionality is available in the REPL, although is a bit cumbersome
<merijn> thelema: You mean the inline type annotations?
<thelema> for the first, yes
<merijn> Basically I'm writing some basic parser combinator style stuff and defined a "type 'a parser = string -> ('a option * string)", but the type checker of course uses the inferred "'a -> ('b option * 'a)" type for all functions. Since this is for some beginners I wanted to force it to use the 'a parser types to make the signatures easier to read for newbies
<thelema> oh, that's not so bad...
<thelema> let foo : 'a parser = fun str -> ...
<thelema> this is supported pre 3.12 even
<merijn> thelema: That works for simple ones, but if you combine them it becomes really hard to read the inline types :\
<merijn> i.e. "'a parser -> 'b parser -> ('a -> 'b -> 'c) -> 'c parser"
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<thelema> let foo : 'a parser -> 'b parser -> ('a -> 'b -> 'c) -> 'c parser =
<thelema> fun p1 p2 f -> ...
<merijn> Ah, right. I guess that's doable
<merijn> thelema: Thanks :)
<thelema> merijn: you're welcomd
<thelema> *welcome
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<merijn> Is it possible to turn functions into infix notation (like Haskell's "elem set e = set `elem` e")?
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<_habnabit> well, you could write some HOF operators that do it, but I don't think it's worth bothering
<_habnabit> as `set /<elem>/ e` or whatever
<merijn> _habnabit: Yeah, I was just trying to cleanup some semanticly meaningless operator symbol into a somewhat readable function name if possible
<thelema> _habnabit: no, ocaml doesn't support this like that. All infix functions in ocaml are entirely composed of symbols
<merijn> _habnabit: But if it becomes to ugly I'll just leave it at this
<_habnabit> thelema, was that a mistell?
<thelema> _habnabit: yes, sorry
<thelema> merijn: ^^
<_habnabit> # let (/<) a f = f a and (>/) f a = f a in 1 /<compare>/ 2;;
<_habnabit> - : int = -1
<merijn> _habnabit: Wow, that's awful, yet amazing
<_habnabit> heh
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<JdpB42> looked more into eliom ....jeesh ....i want to like this stuff!!!!
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<oriba> someone here who has used ocamlgraph already?
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<JdpB42> blah this sucks ....re learning ocaml! its been so long I have forgot so much
<oriba> learn again
<oriba> then it's fun again
<JdpB42> what editor do you use oriba ?
<samposm> recursively, not iteratively :-)
<oriba> JdpB42, I use vim
<JdpB42> use the omlet.vim?
<oriba> no
<JdpB42> or is it already included now?
<oriba> just normal vim
<oriba> maybe it is
<oriba> Syntax highlighting is possible
<oriba> what does omlet.vim offer?
<oriba> is it more than syntax highlighting?
<JdpB42> do you have syntax highlighting?
<oriba> yes
<JdpB42> better indentation i think
<JdpB42> yea it was included i guess for a while now i guess
<oriba> I think syntax highlighting for a lot of languages is normal today
<oriba> and I don't use certain indentation patterns/help
<oriba> only I use "set ai"
<oriba> just that vim uses the indentation of my former line
<oriba> nothing else
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