gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<cl1> there are 102 people in here and no one has said anything in the last 30 minutes. o_O
<companion_cube> I think it's supposed to be the night in many places where those people live
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<cl1> i see
<thelema> tautologico: if it's in another file, I go to that file and C-s for it.
<thelema> tautologico: if it's in the stdlib or batteries, I open the docs for it in my web browser
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<bobry> thelema: I see you started some progress on local packages in odb, maybe we should join forces, since 'barbra' is doing the same thing? we can add OASIS-db as one of the 'source' backends
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<Drakken> BuildTools: Tools required to compile, including internal executables.
<Drakken> This is the "definitive" documentation?
<adrien> Drakken: are you creating your _oasis file completely by hand?
<Drakken> adrien sure, why not?
<adrien> I started that way too but it didn't work out well; basically, there is a better documentation but it's inside "oasis quickstart"
<adrien> it's a wizard
<adrien> and it's a good way to start a new file
<adrien> typically, I use it to start a new _oasis and then I do it by hand; it's faster and easier this way
<Drakken> Every OCaml programmer should be required to read the Lisp Hyperspec as a model for their documentation.
<adrien> if you use oasis quickstart, you'll notice that most stuff exists but it hasn't been made available with the same level on details on the website for instance
<Drakken> adrien okay I'll try it.
<adrien> Drakken: also, fortunately, quickstart is not a wizard that believes you're dumb =)
<adrien> Drakken: the examples on http://oasis.forge.ocamlcore.org/documentation.html are also good (along with the links to other projects using oasis)
<adrien> maybe that the only thing missing on http://oasis.forge.ocamlcore.org/alreadyusing.html is keywords to know what a particular _oasis file "has" (like, I could put mine and add say it's an example for using "packs")
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<thelema> bobry: sure, how to collaborate?
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<hcarty> thelema: I was able to get ocamlnet to install via odb, but I only tested through a fresh ocamlbrew installation
<bobry> thelema: well, it depends, one way is to merge two projects -- probably making OASIS-db a backend, which will allow using 'forge' entries in 'brb.conf' https://gist.github.com/1534221
<bobry> hcarty: ocamlbrew?
<hcarty> bobry: https://github.com/hcarty/ocamlbrew -- still very much a WIP
<hcarty> bobry: But it Works For Me
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<thelema> bobry: I wonder what barbra can contribute, as odb seems to have the leg up on everything that I can figure barbra does
<bobry> well, first of all we focus on per-project dependencies -- each project has it's own brb.conf and _dep-build environment, that's a bit different from what odb is doing
<thelema> bobry: also, I don't like the idea of specifying every package at oasis-db in order to use it
<bobry> every package?
<bobry> does odb support vcs sources? or arbitrary http / ftp sources?
<thelema> bobry: yes and yes
<bobry> oh nice :)
<thelema> ah, maybe I misunderstood your idea - each conf file (why have many?) lists the deps for a single project
<thelema> and you have to run barbra in the right order to install them all
<bobry> well, each project has a single dep file, right
<bobry> yup
<thelema> (might as well install them all in the order listed)
<bobry> well, since it turns out the features are pretty similar, the only reason i see for joining efforts is -- one good tool for the job :)
<thelema> whereas odb actually tracks real dependencies. The version tracking isn't perfect at the moment, as there can only be one version of a package in its database at once
<bobry> what do you mean "real"?
<bobry> i thought it only tracks deps via oasis-db
<thelema> I think the idea of "projects" could be added to odb easily - simple text files listing a list of deps, and odb would install all of those packages
<thelema> bobry: odb gets deps from either oasis-db or the packages file
<bobry> hmm, i should probably look at new odb features more closely, haven't seen it for a while
<thelema> deps are a package, comparator (GT, GE, EQ) and a version (optional) saying that a particular version of a file is needed
<hcarty> thelema: odb bundles should be pretty straightforward...
<thelema> err, version of a package
<thelema> hcarty: yes, quite.
<hcarty> thelema: It could be implemented as a package with no content, but with a list of requirements.
<hcarty> Or, rather, dependencies
<thelema> hcarty: yup. I guess I should support this too.
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<hcarty> thelema: It may not require any extra support
<thelema> at the moment, I give an error for packages without any install info
<hcarty> Ah
<thelema> but I can temper this with a check for deps
<hcarty> Well, something should(?) be installed - maybe just a META file?
<hcarty> I've done that before in GODI, to track dependencies for a project
<thelema> the idea of a bundle having its own build environment isn't bad
<thelema> and this is something that odb doesn't do atm
<hcarty> Shouldn't that be possible with some environment variable tweaking?
<thelema> bobry: dig through the last few commits; I've been pumping out features this last week relating to what barbra can do.
<hcarty> It's not automated, but the bundle could be isolated that way
<thelema> hcarty: grr, if I implement this, I'll have violated my church-and-state separation of ocaml versions and installing packages
<hcarty> thelema: What would be violated, and how?
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<thelema> odb switching between ocaml versions would be violated by supporting different build environments
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<hcarty> thelema: Having ~/.odb, ~/.odb-project-a, ~/.odb-project-b?
<thelema> yes, it should be ~/brew ~/brew-project-a, etc
<thelema> with something else managing the compiler, etc. switching, and odb going along for the ride
<hcarty> thelema: I think it's nice to be able to have multiple odb roots for a single OCaml install
<thelema> so that different versions of the same lib can coexist?
<hcarty> ~/brew-dev could have ~/.odb-stable ~/.odb-test; ~/brew-prod could have ~/.odb-stable
<hcarty> thelema: Can co-exist on the filesystem only
<hcarty> thelema: One would still need to change OCAMLPATH, etc. to swap between ~/.odb's
<thelema> yes, of course
<thelema> I guess testers would really want this kind of feature
<thelema> and we should encourage lots of testing
<hcarty> My hope is that, between ocamlbrew and odb, it will be easy to test ocaml-3.13.0~gadt-super-awesome + Batteries-git + oasis + foo-lib with just a few commands
* thelema imagines a simple script that compiles the last n versions of ocaml and sets up m environments with different versions of packages in them... although why... hmm
<hcarty> And then quickly swap back to ocaml-stable, Batteries-stable, etc. to get real work done
<thelema> hcarty: yes, and that's a compiler version change
<thelema> within a compiler version, why have different sets of libs?
<hcarty> thelema: But part of getting real work done could involve testing code against batteries-git under ocaml-stable
<hcarty> thelema: That's part of the real work I am looking forward to doing soon :-)
<hcarty> So I, personally, am very interested in being able to use one OCaml installation against multiple sets of libraries
<hcarty> Being able to quickly test personal-project-a against batteries-vCurrent+1, without needing to install a completely separate OCaml, is very useful
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<hcarty> As or potentially more useful than testing personal-project-a + batteries-vCurrent against OCaml-vCurrent+1
<thelema> hcarty: faur enough, but the complexity of this seems the same as the complexity of switching ocaml versions
<thelema> *fair
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<hcarty> True, the complexity from the standpoint of environment variable changes is similar. The build time is a lot less, as is the effort to recreate the rest of the environment (libraries, etc.)
<thelema> yes, not having to rebuild ocamlc helps
<hcarty> If someone is using OCaml from a deb or rpm then it helps even more
<hcarty> As those may be patched in ways that are not easy to replicate
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<hcarty> thelema: I agree that a tool external to odb itself would be nice for this
<hcarty> thelema: It's something I would like to tackle at some point, either as part of the odb project, the ocamlbrew project, or a separate project.
<hcarty> I've used similar tools with Perl and they are very nice to have.
<thelema> bobry: any chance you can leverage barbra to do this?
<hcarty> thelema: I think a bash function could be enough, or a simple OCaml/Perl/whatever script
<thelema> hcarty: probably
<thelema> but it looks like a lot of work was put into barbra
<thelema> hcarty: it would be nice to automate the building of utop without calling odb three times - this looks like something that barbra would do
<hcarty> thelema: I agree, and it does look like barbra could handle that.
<hcarty> thelema: But I think that there is a lot of utility in odb's method.
<hcarty> The fact that odb doesn't require you to create a configuration file to build utop is quite nice
<hcarty> barbra and odb seem like they are addressing two different concenrs
<hcarty> concerns
<hcarty> odb is similar to cpan(m); barbra seems more like a localized build environment creator
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<tautologico> why is ocamldoc not generating indexes?
<tautologico> when generating info files
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<thelema> is there any reasonable way to find the executable path for the current executable?
<adrien> thelema: which programming language?
<thelema> ocaml
<thelema> if it helps, it's an `#!/usr/bin/env ocaml` script
<adrien> I typically do Filename.concat (Sys.getcwd ()) (dirname ys.arg.(0))
<thelema> does that work if the program is in the path?
<adrien> ah, sorry
<thelema> maybe it's not a reasonable request
<adrien> it requires a test to know if the program was started with an absolute path or not
<adrien> Filename.is_relative Sys.argv.(0)
<adrien> if it's a relative path: concat with Sys.getcwd; otherwise, don't
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<adrien> it has always worked for me and I've never seen any alternative but I haven't seen it advised anywhere either
<thelema> ok, I'll try it.
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<bobzhang> tuareg-mode does not support caml-debug any more? or is there any patch?
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<dsheets> What is the error domain of "Sys_error"? Pervasives mentions it several times in the context of io channel errors. Is this all it is used for?
<dsheets> Alternately, is there a doc file somewhere that specs Sys_error?
<thelema> dsheets: curious question...
<dsheets> well, it isn't rhetorical so it is curious?
<dsheets> i surely must be stupid
<thelema> Sys_error is builtin to ocaml (it's not even in pervasives)
<dsheets> ah, that explains that. i did not consider builtins below pervasives
* dsheets writes reminder to always check the manual
<thelema> Match_failure is in the same category
<dsheets> thelema: i will have some ocaml software to distribute soon. do you have docs about making it as easy as possible for ocaml library users or package system maintainers?
<thelema> dsheets: that's a fair question. if you can use oasis for your build system, that should take care of many problems
<thelema> how are you building now?
<dsheets> make + ocamlbuild + ocamlfind
<thelema> dsheets: a library?
<dsheets> it's a compiler with a command line interface
<dsheets> some modules are very reusable so it would be nice to distribute that as a lib
<thelema> ok, `ocamlfind install` those modules
<dsheets> i don't see the need to separate the lib and the minimal interface but perhaps i am naive here
<dsheets> oh, ok, i will factor out those parts, i suppose
<thelema> no worries on the separation
<dsheets> it should be fairly clean, i just don't know how much to consolidate
<thelema> just make them usable - just install all the files they depend on
<dsheets> i have a js_of_ocaml port and a cohttp port in the pipeline
<thelema> and/or make a cma/cmxa file of the whole lot
<thelema> do you have a ./configure script?
<dsheets> ok, i have deps on ulex and menhir dunno if that will hurt me
<dsheets> no configure
<thelema> since you're installing an executable, it'd be best to have one so that users can set the install dir
<thelema> deps on ulex and menhir shouldn't be too bad.
<dsheets> ok, i also will have a man page
<thelema> sadly, menhir doesn't auto install
<dsheets> i don't want to know how autoconf or similar works. how do you recommend doing ./configure?
<dsheets> i've been looking at dypgen but i don't know if the transition is worth it when both projects look slightly neglected
<thelema> make your own shell script
<thelema> even ocamlc doesn't use autoconf
<dsheets> ok, do you have a straight shell ./configure that i could crib e.g.?
<dsheets> a satisfactory implementation that is in use
<thelema> no, can't help there
<adrien> I haven't followed everything but couldn't oasis make a configure script for that?
<dsheets> ok, thanks for the rest of the info, it's been very helpful :-)
<thelema> adrien: oasis can make its own thing, but it wouldn't be a simple shell script for him
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<dsheets> i'm ok adopting oasis totally if that is the wave of the future
<thelema> dsheets: let me know the url for the tarball / vcs repo so I can add your thing into odb
<adrien> right, I'm reading the backlog now; I shouldn't have thought you could have not thought of oasis ;-)
<dsheets> thelema: will do
<rwmjones> thelema: what about ocaml-autoconf?!
<thelema> rwmjones: no love.
<rwmjones> I'm using it this very day
<thelema> rwmjones: I don't think I want to inflict autotools on anyone
<rwmjones> well ... that is a separate matter of course
<rwmjones> but ocaml-autoconf works fine and is supported, within the confines of one having to use autotools
<thelema> true. I've never used it as a dev, but it does seem to work fine as a user
<thelema> rwmjones: while I have you, I've got bitstring auto-installable via odb - is there any other of your software I should make auto-installable?
<thelema> oh yeah, ancient
<rwmjones> ancient really needs someone to take it on and rewrite the lower-level bits
<rwmjones> since I don't work with vast datasets any more, I don't have much use for it
<thelema> It doesn't ./configure;make;make install properly because of the mmalloc subdir
<rwmjones> replacing or fixing mmalloc would be part of the taking it on bit
<thelema> :)
<thelema> ok, well I guess I won't worry about that too much.
<thelema> any other software that should be ez-installable?
<rwmjones> ocaml-csv?
<rwmjones> perl4caml too
<thelema> csv auto-installs, great.
<thelema> hmm, have a up to date url for perl4caml?
<rwmjones> git.annexia.org
<thelema> I guess I should have guessed
<thelema> hmm, needs some perl libs that I don't have installed at the moment
<adrien> rwmjones: btw, do you have a backup of the cocan wiki?
<thelema> of course
<rwmjones> of the database, yes, but it's mixed up with merjis proprietary data so it's hard to separate
<rwmjones> in the same postgresql db I mean
<rwmjones> the software is on git.annexia.org
<rwmjones> gildor has a copy of the tutorial
<rwmjones> interestingly
<thelema> rwmjones: :( no ocamlfind in perl4caml - can't auto-install it to a custom directory
* rwmjones is working on a large (and secret, but may be public soon) camlp4 project now
<adrien> ah, ok; and web.archive.org also has a copu
<adrien> copy*
<rwmjones> send patches ..
<thelema> rwmjones: sorry about that. the having to work with camlp4 part.
<thelema> rwmjones: I guess I may have to do that.
<rwmjones> it has a level of power that we really need, so I'll forgive it :-)
<thelema> rwmjones: perl4caml will have to stay in the shame side of the odb packages list.
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<samposm> is there a way, in emacs tuareg mode, to send the text under cursor to the interpreter, without the cursor moving?
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<dilange888> Are there any large companies besides Jane Street that use Ocaml as their primary language?
<thelema> dilange888: yes
<dilange888> Bad question.
<dilange888> Of course there are.
<dilange888> Does anyone know of any companies in particular?
<thelema> http://caml.inria.fr/consortium/ - lexifi and mlstate
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<thelema> I don't know about simcorp. It looks... all markety by their website
<thelema> mlstate is probably not that large
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<thelema> just pushed auto-detection of install permissions for odb, have been working to push many packages into its config. Please look at list and let me know what else I should try: https://github.com/thelema/odb/blob/master/packages
<thelema> avsm: I knew that citrix used ocaml, but not as primary
<thelema> I guess 1 of 4 teams isn't bad.
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<avsm> there's rarely a 'primary' in a big company
<avsm> i.e. using OCaml to build a WIndows GUI is silly
* adrien whistles
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<adrien> avsm: honest question: why?
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<avsm> its just a lot easier using windows dev tools.
<avsm> a server, on the other hand...
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<adrien> avsm: something like WFP? and something else than ocaml even for cross-platform programs?
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<zarus> uhhh
<zarus> srry
<avsm> depends what you mean by 'cross platform'. For POSIX, OCaml is superb
<adrien> I meant linux and windows; maybe os x but it's a platform I don't use at all
<thelema> avsm: I imagine many companies develop exclusively in Java or C++
<thelema> or even, god forbid, VB
* adrien cries ='(
<thelema> :
<thelema> )
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<adrien> the good news is that my task was to get rid of it; the bad stuff is that I had to live with it for some time
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<tautologico> sometimes the best solution in the Windows world was to use VB :)
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<tautologico> nowadays with .net, I guess not so much
<adrien> well, VB*3*? :P
<tautologico> wow, that's old
<adrien> and it doesn't run on 64bit versions of windows =)
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<technomancy> I'm trying to compile ocsigen in an environment where I don't have root; is there a way to bring-your-own-pcre?
* technomancy has no idea how makefiles work
<adrien> pcre: the C library or ocaml-pcre?
<adrien> but for both, the answer should be "yes"
<technomancy> TBH I'm not sure which it is; it just says "Cannot find pcre-config"
<adrien> ah
<adrien> it's the C lib
<technomancy> I tried pointing --includedir to a directory full of the .h files from the deb
<technomancy> with no effect
<adrien> nah: pcre-config gives indication on how pcre has been configured
<adrien> you have no way to get root to do anything?
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<technomancy> no, it's a pretty strange environment
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<technomancy> trying to build it on Heroku (http://heroku.com)
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<technomancy> am I barking up the wrong tree with --includedir?
<adrien> I guess you have two approaches
<adrien> one is to install libs locally: ./configure --prefix $HOME/somewhere ...
<technomancy> the library's already there; I think I just need the dev headers
<adrien> another one is to try to find the matching pcre-config from debian and add it to your $PATH
<technomancy> oh, it's talking about an executable?
<adrien> or replicate its output, maybe fixing the paths to match the location you've put the headers in
<adrien> yes, pcre-config is most probably an executable
<technomancy> ok, no wonder I was getting nowhere with the headers; thanks
<adrien> yup, it is
<adrien> well, you'll need both =)
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<technomancy> cruising along now; thanks
<adrien> :-)
<technomancy> I like the fact that ocsigen does attempt to keep everything self-contained
<technomancy> using apt for things like this is usually a headache
<technomancy> (not things as basic as pcre, but the faster-changing ocaml libraries)
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<technomancy> hm; 30 minutes of compilation later and I've got "/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lpcre"
<technomancy> even though libpcre3 is definitely installed
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