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<testcocoon>
I'm actually guessing if the OCaml-LLVM binding is complete, it seams that functions that permits to get the initializer value of global constants are missing. Is this true?
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<hcarty>
thelema: The addition of automatic test running looks like it broke odn's build
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<hcarty>
thelema: oasis-db doesn't list test-only dependencies, so odb.ml doesn't know to fetch them before building
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<hcarty>
thelema: odn's tests require fileutils and oUnit, but the library itself does not
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<hcarty>
thelema: I added
<hcarty>
thelema: I added ConfType: custom (0.2)
<hcarty>
to the _oasis file of the oasis-db lablgtk2 package to ensure ./configure is called
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<testcocoon>
thomasga: does it mean that debugging ocaml code (native or/and bytecode) with gdb works?
<f[x]>
hcarty, do you mean that oasis now has optional dependencies?
<thomasga>
testcocoon: well it starts to work. no way to read/write ocaml values, I'm looking at that currently
<thomasga>
but backtraces (thks to f[x]) and breakpoints work
<f[x]>
thomasga, I guess in order to display values one should hack gdb
<testcocoon>
that would be really greath, because this will enable a lot of IDE for debugging!
<f[x]>
and that should be quite doable
<f[x]>
gdb already has support for some runtimes (iirc python and java)
<thomasga>
f[x]: I'm looking at libgdb and a very simple way to display values (ie. showing the tag and some of the contents)
<f[x]>
thomasga, port Std.dump to C :)
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<thomasga>
yea, actually that's what I was looking :-)
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<adrien>
for a tweakable parameter in a program, would you rather say "option" or "setting"?
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<f[x]>
adrien, configurageValueAdaptor of course
<f[x]>
*able
<yezariaely>
f[x]: lol
<adrien>
hahaha :P
<adrien>
I'm using "option" but that might be because of French
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<Drakken>
adrien I would use "setting" for a numerical parameter, "option" for discrete
<adrien>
Drakken: ok, thanks =)
<hcarty>
f[x]: It has per-target dependencies. oasis's flags allows for a type of optional depency - Lwt uses this, for example.
<f[x]>
hcarty, cool, good to know
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<thelema>
hcarty: my latest commit 6e9c removes the make test bit for oasis packages
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<hcarty>
thelema: I forgot to regenerate setup.ml in my lablgtk2 upload - I'll correct that now
<thelema>
hcarty: yes, that's an annoying feature of oasis
<hcarty>
thelema: Sounds good re: odb. It would be nice to bring testing support back in eventually, but it may require oasis-db support to do properly.
<adrien>
I have make rules which are like: "setup.data: setup.ml" and "setup.ml: _oasis"
<adrien>
been working pretty effortlessly
<hcarty>
One more fix to do... I forgot to add "touch setup.data" to the custom configuration command
<hcarty>
adrien: I really like oasis overall
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<adrien>
hcarty: same here; my issue is that parsing is slow
<hcarty>
adrien: A large part of the challenge is getting used to a different workflow - like remembering to run "oasis setup" after changing _oasis
<adrien>
so, usually, I ocamlopt setup.ml
<adrien>
hcarty: I never ever do that: my makefile does it
<adrien>
but what about the setup-dev thing to autoregenerate it?
<hcarty>
adrien: That works for normal development, but not for this "quick patch over upstream's build system" approach
<hcarty>
Which is arguably not the right way to develop something :-)
<adrien>
hcarty: right, it only works if upstream is using something itself
<adrien>
but I think that commit hooks could work too
<hcarty>
Five revisions later... It Works For Me
<adrien>
ten laters, it works for others
<adrien>
twenty revs laters, it somehow half-works on windows
<hcarty>
adrien: Windows support is something that we can only hope to asymptotically approach
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<Drakken>
Is there a way to partially open a module?
<Drakken>
i.e. specify only some values or exclude some values?
<thelema>
Drakken: let (foo,bar,baz) = Module.(foo,bar,baz)
<Drakken>
thelema okay, thanks.
<adrien>
let
<adrien>
let
<adrien>
bluh
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<adrien>
you could so something with functors and include too but it's probably overkill :P
<adrien>
and there's probably a better way but it will still be quite heavy
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<Drakken>
adrien I put it on my list of macro ideas
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<adrien>
something with functors is going to be much slower
<adrien>
there might be something in the newer ocaml versions to do it better however
<flux>
thelema, hey, that's a pretty nice trick
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<thelema>
flux: thanks
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<flux>
although doesn't really scale :)
<flux>
I much prefer using module aliases instead of open
<flux>
preferably one set of module aliases for the whole project, like common.ml: module Z = ZabbaZabba and then in actual code include Common
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<Drakken>
Are there any other int operations beside the ones in Pervasives? especially divmod?
<thelema>
Drakken: i.e. get both dividend and remainder simultaneously?
<Drakken>
right
<thelema>
just do it in two steps
<thelema>
let divmod x y = x / y, x mod y
<thelema>
I think mathlib has some C binding for this, but not sure.
<Drakken>
wouldn't a built-in operator be more efficient?
<thelema>
maybe, but don't worry about it at the moment.
<thelema>
and no, mathlib doesn't have divmod.
<thelema>
hmm, what lib was that...
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<thelema>
that's it, zarith provides div_rem.
<thelema>
and also ediv_rem
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<hcarty>
thelema: That's a cool let (...) = Module.(...) trick
<thelema>
I just made it up, I've never used it. It does look syntactically nice.
<hcarty>
I don't think a BatteriesNoExceptions will be as straightforward as I had hoped
<hcarty>
thelema: Map.(Make, S) are troublesome, along with Set and any other modules with functors
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<thelema>
at least you have the 3.12 module extensions.
<thelema>
if you really have to, start with a version w/o functors
<hcarty>
It's not impossible, just heavier
<hcarty>
LOC heavier
<thelema>
yes, it will be heavier. If you want, you can put the NoExceptions functors into each module.
<thelema>
Map.MakeNoExceptions
<thelema>
and don't worry about functor overhead - it's quite small
<hcarty>
I'm not concerned about the computational overhead - I'm already used a NoException-functorized version of Map locally :-)
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<hcarty>
I'm more concerned about time overhead. I don't think I'll have time to complete it.
<hcarty>
On the plus side, I imagine this could land post-2.0 since it would only add to interfaces. Nothing would be removed.
<thelema>
yup. no rush.
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<thelema>
I just wish its design document weren't in ... russian?
<adrien>
errrrr
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<adrien>
I've been able to read "oasis-db" and "godi"!
<thelema>
"configure" and the section on MUST and MAY
<adrien>
and since it's in google docs, I have no idea how to copy the text
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<Drakken>
Is there a recommended alternative to make for building local projects?
<adrien>
oasis, ocamlbuild
<larhat>
thelema, hcarty, adrien: we, the camluntiy, will translate design doc shortly
<larhat>
*camlunity :-)
<Drakken>
How can ocamlbuild find all the libraries I installed and compile each file correctly?
<thelema>
ok, I look forward to finding out your design
<thelema>
Drakken: ocamlfind libraries?
<adrien>
larhat: well, without a full translation: maybe a single sentence: it's meant only for ocaml? everywhere? and ocamlfind is a package manager, so does it replace ocamlfind or is it above it?
<thelema>
Drakken: -tags package(batteries), etc.
<Qrntzz>
adrien: it is more similar to the famous haskell cabal
<thelema>
adrien: imagine ocamlfind + odb
<larhat>
adrien: it's similar to rebar (erlang tool), but for ocaml world. no, it isn't substitution to ocamlfind
<adrien>
ok; and above oasis or other build systems?
<Qrntzz>
adrien: it automates fetching the sources, unpacking them, satisfying dependencies, compiling and installing, but it doesn't really depend on oasis or some other build system
<Qrntzz>
*disclaimer: I have nothing to do with the developers, I just know russian :-)
<adrien>
ok, thanks
<bobry>
okay, so barbra isn't a secret any moar :)
<Qrntzz>
np
<adrien>
spies everywhere
<bobry>
right
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<larhat>
O Iron Curtain, where art thou?
<Qrntzz>
in the past, I guess
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<gds_>
hello. i'm the one of "barbra" developers, you've talked about it some time ago. i've translated concepts+documentation, https://github.com/camlunity/barbra/blob/master/README.txt , but i did it quick&dirty, and my english is far from good. but it is more understandable than in russian anyway.
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<thelema>
gds_: thanks for the quick response
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<thelema>
gds_: interesting - I was thinking about going this way with odb - you're right that the missing information is package_name -> url, although it's nice to have a server to parse the _oasis files and extract deps
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<thelema>
gds_: Is the expectation that every user will make their own brb.conf file from scratch?
<thelema>
also, assumption 6 about oasis-db is incorrect.
<thelema>
I agree that (5) is not important for the short term
<thelema>
And I'd argue that it's been usable for a while - I've been using it.
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<thelema>
I agree with (1)-(3), though.
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<thelema>
gds__: ping
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<gds__>
thelema: mandatory "server" is the bad conception, there are usecases "corporative developement with closed sources", "testing new version of library (and our software with this version)". and not every package has its _oasis, there are old projects. barbra just builds them.
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<thelema>
gds__: _oasis can be bolted onto old projects
<thelema>
gds__: how do you detect whether a dependency is installed or not?
<gds_>
thelema: for now, every user writes brb.conf from scratch. in the future we think about making possible to have an online repository with packages' "index".
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<thelema>
I like the idea of specifying package sources. I don't quite like the idea of everyone maintaining their own list of sources.
<gds_>
thelema: dependencies that are listed in brb.conf will be installed anyway, locally. if some ain't listed, it's up to ocamlfind to use it. of course, it's first version. we are planning to make "trusting" to ocamlfind, checks for version, but some later.
<gds_>
thelema: /_dep/env.sh is for scripts and for "(source _dep/env.sh ; ocamlfind ocamlbrowser -all)" and so
<thelema>
gds_: for ocamlfind packages, it's not difficult to detect whether the dependency is installed, but what about packages like ocamlify that build an executable?
<gds_>
thelema: and more, there are packages like ocamlnet that install a bunch of ocamlfind packages. That's why we weren't bothered by solving this issue in the first version.
<gds_>
it's a hard question, you see :)
<thelema>
agreed, it is.
<thelema>
Do you mind if I take some of your good ideas and use them in odb?
<gds_>
barbra is under gpl, I have no choice except "use anything its ideas in odb". and I think that odb is useful (when it will work at full power).
<thelema>
full power = local files, VCS support, what else?
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<gds_>
custom building options (configure, make targets, environment), inter-package dependencies, ease of adding custom (even private) package sources, bundling packages with its dependencies and building them from bundle, installing some packages only locally / only system-wide / only in corporation's default ocamlfind_destdir.
<thelema>
what do you mean by "inter-package dependencies"?
<thelema>
install destinations are similarly more configurable than you seem to know: --sudo, --have-perms, auto-detection of GODI, $ODB_INSTALL_DIR
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<gds_>
oh, it's in barbra-terms. i meant "dependencies between any packages that the project uses".
<thelema>
bundling packages with their deps is something that gildor was working on - I think he actually released a program to bundle
<thelema>
a program to bundle a bunch of source packages together into a single compile & install tarball
<thelema>
gds_: so a project would be something like oasis, and the packages would be odn, type-conv, ocamlify, fileutils, and oasis?
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<gds_>
thelema: in barbra terms, yes, expect that "oasis" is the "project", not a "package" in these terms. (it is not required to build itself)
<thelema>
isn't every package a project?
<gds_>
in the documentation i've described the simple cases and i needed to distinguish "project" and "package", it's only local terms, no more than it.
<thelema>
so the project is the install target, and the packages are the dependencies that are needed to install the project?
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<gds_>
yes, exactly.
<thelema>
ok, that makes great sense.
<gds_>
if/when we'll implement recursive dependencies search/installation, the difference will somehow fade, as i suspect.
<thelema>
I expect so too. I have some flags that apply to -all/-global, but don't really distinguish
<thelema>
only the root of the dependency tree is special for some flags, but mostly they're all treated the same
<gds_>
interesting, what's the logic behind the -all/-global?
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<thelema>
there's --force and --force-all to force re-compilation/re-installation of only "projects" or all packages involved
<thelema>
similarly, --configure-flags vs. --configure-flags-global to set a configure flag for projects or all packages (to use your terminology)
<thelema>
hcarty: mind if I rename --configure-flags-global to --configure-flags-all?
<thelema>
gds_: did you want a description of why the distinction?
<gds_>
thelema: if it's not hard for you, yes, it's interesting.
<thelema>
gds_: I was just trying to understand what you were asking; it's no problem
<thelema>
for --force, it makes sense to not recompile *all* dependencies sometimes (if you just want to upgrade the version of a single package)
<thelema>
but at other times, like if you've upgraded ocaml, you need to recompile everything, so --force-all
<thelema>
similarly, for configure-flags, one might want to set a configure flag for all packages if it really applies to them all, but maybe not - maybe this configure flag is only appropriate for the single package you've listed.
<thelema>
an example of the first kind would be something having to do with paths or compiler settings (can't think of a specific example)
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<gds_>
thelema: yes, my english is bad, sorry. so, -all and -global should be synonyms in your description above?
<thelema>
yes.
<thelema>
gds_: no worries about your english - I can try to write more clearly.
<thelema>
My spoken English has a mode where I speak slowly and carefully, to help non-native speakers understand me better
<gds_>
no, don't let my brain to relax
<thelema>
apparently my written English is not quite the same
<gds_>
i was confused by "-all/-global", i thought there should be the difference between them.
<gds_>
(so, i perfectly understand words, sentences' meaning, the whole sense, but can't write good.)
<thelema>
no - I think that hcarty thought -global made sense, although it was inconsistent with the existing -all
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<thelema>
if it helps, the package "oasis" was a good test case for odb - maybe it will help you with barbra
<gds_>
thelema: yes, our local folks told me that oasis (it's installation with system ocaml+findlib+barbra and no more system deps) is the good test for the barbra. I'll definitely try it, it's good idea.
<thelema>
does barbra depend on oasis for _oasis parsing?
<thelema>
actually, what exactly does it infer as deps when it reads an _oasis file? Concatenate all the BuildDepends lines together?
<gds_>
thelema: it's simpler :) barbra does not parse _oasis for now. but we want to parse it later. maybe it will be possible to add option like 'ocaml setup.ml -info' to oasis, to make setup.ml output some information like version and dependencies?
<thelema>
actually, after ./configure, there's an ocaml format setup.data... maybe that could be used...
<thelema>
nope, no deps there...
<thelema>
well, not directly, just things like pkg_threads = "/usr/local/lib/ocaml"
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<thelema>
hmm, lwt is another one that'll be a bit tricky to fix
<gds_>
thelema: after ./configure -- of course, setup.data, but the ./configure run is required. not a good thing, since it may fail (no C lib, for example).
<gds_>
as for deps, BuildDepends will give some information about which ocamlfind packages are required, and if we have some kind of "index" with "ocamlfind package => source", it can help.
<thelema>
the package manager can ignore failures that happen before all deps are confirmed as installed.
<gds_>
thelema: what's about lwt?
<thelema>
gds_: another test case for barbra
<gds_>
thelema: i've quoted my brb.conf in the brb's readme, it's the brb.conf that i've used when i built lwt successfully for "closed-source project" i needed to install to some alien host. it worked.
<thelema>
auto-handling deps?
<thelema>
I guess not.
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<gds_>
no, manually written brb.conf with packages that weren't found on that host (its sysadmin went to sleep, but i needed to compile my software before he will awake).
<thelema>
fair enough.
<thelema>
Maybe I should get odb's handling of packages not in oasis-db just to that level first before handling deps
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<gds_>
it's good idea for making software to compile quick and without administrator's intervention.
<gds_>
thelema: "the package manager can ignore failures that happen before all deps are confirmed as installed" -- yes, but the _oasis parsing is required _to install_ these deps, that's why i could ever need to parse _oasis or add 'ocaml setup.ml -info' option.
<_habnabit>
now there's Enum.arg_min but not List.arg_min :(
<thelema>
maybe oasis executable can pull deps out of binary
<thelema>
err, oasis executable can pull deps out of a _oasis file
<thelema>
_habnabit: List.enum
<_habnabit>
yeah, I guess.
<thelema>
_habnabit: I don't think we need a List.arg_min
<gds_>
i like that barbra has no dependency on anything expect ocaml+findlib, because otherwise users (me too!) will be forced to install oasis to any "alien host". i'm planning to use barbra on windows too, even for "bundled" packages.
<gds_>
thelema: thanks, it's good documentation. our bidirectional spies already gave me that link :) btw, i'm planning to rewrite my sh#tty overbld's bash scripts to something like "compile ocaml + findlib with bash, then use package manager to install other packages", and i will need these (or similar) command lines anyway.
<thelema>
:)
<thelema>
take all the good bits you can from odb. Good luck finding them, though.
<gds_>
of course, it will be better to take the odb itself, i understand it.
<thelema>
:)
<thelema>
forks encouraged.
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<hcarty__>
thelema: Feel free to rename switches. My apologies for the naming inconsistency - all does make more sense in this case.
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<thelema>
hcarty__: no worries
<thelema>
not having to keep backwards compatibility is convenient...
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<thelema>
hcarty__: if you get a chance to make sure I didn't break odb too badly, I just pushed some internal changes. Some can/should be reverted after asking gildor for some tweaks to the oasis-db/odb server
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