gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<dsheets> *sigh* i guess truth gets interpreted as attack in ##javascript
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<yezariaely> dsheets: I didn't get it...
<yezariaely> (Maybe because of the netsplits?!)
<dsheets> yezariaely: maybe… just discussions about lack of tco
<dsheets> irc is quite tribal
<yezariaely> it damn is ;-)
<yezariaely> thx
<yezariaely> dsheets: whatever it was you were telling them, you should probably put it on wikipedia, then it is true automatically :D
<dsheets> yezariaely: hmm… wikipedia says javascript's design was inspired by self and scheme
<dsheets> both of which support tco, i believe
<companion_cube> tco is in the specification of scheme
<everyonemines> Why is tco considered such a big thing? It doesn't seem that hard to implement.
<dsheets> everyonemines: at the language level or at the application level?
<everyonemines> At the compiler level.
<everyonemines> You just convert it to a goto. Inline mutually recursive functions to a parent function.
<everyonemines> Pretty simple.
<dsheets> yeah, here's guido telling fp coders why: http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2009/04/final-words-on-tail-calls.html
<dsheets> that's when i gave up on python
<everyonemines> "elimination of stack traces "
<everyonemines> he's fucking with us right?
<dsheets> uhhh, remember he also won't let you make anonymous functions with statements inside them
<dsheets> and defends the inefficiency of higher-order functions in favor of comprehensions
<dsheets> so, no, i think he is quite serious that "elimination of stack traces" is a showstopper
<companion_cube> list comprehensions are a cool feature though
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<everyonemines> really? I think they make code harder to read than maps.
<_habnabit> no way
<yezariaely> I you are used to them, they are more easy
<_habnabit> also the thing about anonymous functions is misguided
<_habnabit> the thing you should really be complaining about is that python doesn't let you have assignment as an expression
<_habnabit> (which is a much more useful feature than just 'multi-statement anonymous functions', which makes no sense)
<_habnabit> ((and, fwiw, TCE is totally possible in python. I even implemented it _in python_ for python))
<companion_cube> everyonemines: but when you combine a filter and a map into a comprehension, it's a readability win
<dsheets> _habnabit: how about the fact that statements don't have values? aka there are things that are not expressions. Regardless, his stated reasoning is to discourage the use of lambda.
<everyonemines> _habnabit: I mean filtermap.
<everyonemines> Haven't you heard of filtermap?
<everyonemines> It's a thing.
<_habnabit> everyonemines, what?
<everyonemines> In the set of map functions.
<dsheets> _habnabit: with a trampoline?
<_habnabit> dsheets, nope. it just does bytecode hacking.
<_habnabit> rewrites the CALL_FUNCTION opcode into a JUMP_ABSOLUTE opcode
<dsheets> _habnabit: nice! is python bytecode portable?
<everyonemines> In other words, I think it's better to use an appropriate map function than introducing special syntax for something like that.
<_habnabit> vaguely
<_habnabit> everyonemines, the difference is that python has 'an iterable thing' as a language concept and ocaml doesn't
<_habnabit> everyonemines, so, it makes less sense in ocaml because of that
<_habnabit> everyonemines, but it doesn't mean it's a bad idea
<companion_cube> everyonemines: well, the philosophy of python is to add features in the language
<dsheets> _habnabit: so if you run a python service, you can rely on tco through bytecode transform but you can't ship tco-heavy apps?
<companion_cube> and also, you can do lazy comprehensions
<_habnabit> dsheets, it's a joke; I wouldn't rely on it ever
<companion_cube> which are cool to build other structures
<_habnabit> dsheets, but it was a proof-of-concept joke. it's totally a doable thing in python.
<everyonemines> You can make iterable things in ocaml. Just do a partial application to a ref.
<dsheets> _habnabit: yeah but not actually usable so the language is still gimped
<_habnabit> everyonemines, what ???
<_habnabit> dsheets, huh? what's not usable?
<dsheets> _habnabit: hacking python bytecode to jump instead of call
<dsheets> _habnabit: the semantics of the source change and you need a special environment, yes?
<_habnabit> dsheets, sure it's usable. if python implemented TCE, that's how it would be done.
<_habnabit> dsheets, well, if by 'special environment' you mean 'a particular python implementation'
<_habnabit> it's not implementation-agnostic
<companion_cube> everyonemines: seriously...
<everyonemines> let f x () = incr x; !x ;; let o = f (ref 0) ;; o();; o();;
<_habnabit> everyonemines, okay? have you ever used python?
<everyonemines> Hmm, not what you meant?
<companion_cube> set(x+2 for x in foo if x not in blah) ← this is the kind of comprehensions python is good for
<dsheets> _habnabit: yes, it is possible but if the BDFL says "ni" why does it matter? It's also possible in javascript but you can't write javascript expecting TCE unless you control its runtime
<everyonemines> You can use x as the index into an object.
<_habnabit> in python, if you do `for x in y:`, y must be an iterable thing
<everyonemines> Then have some transform applied based on another function argument.
<_habnabit> 'iterable' is a language-defined concept; it's a unified thing
<dsheets> isn't it actually done with magic properties, though?
<_habnabit> and ocaml doesn't have that. yes, you can approximate it, but _there's no interface enforced by the language_
<dsheets> you can pierce the iterable abstraction, no?
<everyonemines> Basically, you just want a map of a function with some internal state.
<dsheets> _habnabit: syntax extension! :-P
<companion_cube> dsheets: with __iter__
<_habnabit> dsheets, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but you can certainly reimplement a for loop by accessing the same machinery that the for loop does transparently
<_habnabit> `for x in y: z(x)` is syntax sugar for approximately `it = iter(y); while True: try: x = next(it);; except StopIteration: break;; z(x)`
<dsheets> _habnabit: or insert other side effects inside of __iter__ called by the comprehension syntax
<companion_cube> everyonemines: not so trivial for 'yield' generators
<companion_cube> for which you just want a python interpreter in ocaml with some state :p
<_habnabit> dsheets, also, re: your previous statement, the BDFL is sadly both going back on previous decisions he's made and delegating more of his veto responsibility
<_habnabit> dsheets, just Guido saying 'no' doesn't mean anything anymore
<companion_cube> wow, really?
<_habnabit> python, currently, is directionless and lost
<dsheets> _habnabit: oh? i haven't paid attention in awhile since he was breaking fp features
<dsheets> does he work for Google?
<companion_cube> there still is itertools and functools
<_habnabit> 2.7 is a nice solid release. any higher version isn't worth using.
<_habnabit> it's kind of sad.
<dsheets> 3k is doa?
<_habnabit> basically
<everyonemines> So they're going to add "all the features" and nobody will be able to read other people's code?
<everyonemines> And the codebase will grow indefinitely?
<_habnabit> py3k was a nice idea in theory, but it wasn't implemented well and it caused more issues than it solved
<dsheets> or they'll just migrate to Go or Dart
<_habnabit> ha ha ha, dart
<everyonemines> Go has a lot of problems actually.
<_habnabit> but if you're talking about google, I guess, ..
<everyonemines> It would have been better if google backed D.
<dsheets> not saying it's a step up
<companion_cube> it would have been interesting, if google had backed D
<dsheets> i'm not sure google's language choice affects much of anything
<everyonemines> I'm liking lua so far. Less than ocaml, but...
<everyonemines> more than python
<_habnabit> yes I'm hoping google become more and more irrelevant
<dsheets> i'll drink to that
<companion_cube> everyonemines: but lua lacks the libs of python
<everyonemines> hmm?
<everyonemines> which ones
<companion_cube> all of them?
<_habnabit> all of them
<_habnabit> hahah
<everyonemines> luarocks?
<dsheets> ok back to debugging js_of_ocaml
<dsheets> thanks for the lulz, everybody
<_habnabit> also come on
<companion_cube> i mean, in python, if you want to compress a file and send it through xmlrpc, it's like 5 lines
<_habnabit> I can't take any language seriously that uses 1-based indexing
<companion_cube> huhu
<everyonemines> oh yeah
<dsheets> matlab!
<_habnabit> haven't you read dijkstra's essay
<everyonemines> I agree that it's a mistake.
<_habnabit> dsheets, :(
<dsheets> mmm i love me some 1-indexed vectors
<everyonemines> well, it's like ocaml having *.
<everyonemines> in that it doesn't matter as much as it is visible
<everyonemines> ocaml has a better reason for that, maybe I should say ;; instead
<everyonemines> ;;_;;
<everyonemines> and ocaml has better syntax, but well
<everyonemines> they're trying to be like c
<everyonemines> Eh, all programming languages suck I guess.
<_habnabit> in short, yes
<dsheets> sk calculus is perfect
<dsheets> just the facts
<companion_cube> dsheets: no, it lacks libs.
<dsheets> that's just because it's unloved not because the language is bad
<companion_cube> ^^
<everyonemines> I should make an eclipse plugin for sk as a joke.
<everyonemines> "Verbose? Just use an IDE."
<companion_cube> try unlambda
<companion_cube> but if you do it in eclipse, do a xml version of SK calculus
<everyonemines> haha
<everyonemines> brilliant
<dsheets> just implement redexes as xslt transforms
<companion_cube> <apply><fun>K</fun><fun>I</fun></apply>
<companion_cube> then it's entreprisey :D
<dsheets> then you xsltproc to step your program
<companion_cube> now SK calculus is much more flexible and agile !
<companion_cube> let's call it IKSML
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<everyonemines> That's intercal level right there.
<dsheets> but with XML terms!
<everyonemines> maybe add OO features somehow
<companion_cube> maybe a virtual class with the apply() method
<companion_cube> subclassed by S, K and I
<everyonemines> haha
<companion_cube> we also need reflection
<dsheets> S, K, and I have canonical XSLT forms
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<dsheets> and any term can be XML therefore XSLT
<companion_cube> step by step rewriting engine in xslt ?
<dsheets> yes!
<companion_cube> the cool thing is that it's already serializable
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<companion_cube> so we can easily put terms in an ORM
<dsheets> it also has a program traversal language
<companion_cube> man, I must code this
<dsheets> put it on github, i will contrib
<companion_cube> :D
<everyonemines> me too
<MaskRay> is ther any library function converting a string into char list?
<companion_cube> as you wish
<everyonemines> MaskRay: I don't think so, because it's not really useful.
<companion_cube> i should write it in java, but I'm too lazy
<dsheets> companion_cube: i thought it was XSLT?
<companion_cube> I'm not skilled enough :/
<companion_cube> but you can do a secon implementation
<companion_cube> second*
<companion_cube> then we will write a standard
<dsheets> hahaha
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<dsheets> MaskRay: let chars s = let rec aux i l = if i=0 then s.[0]::l else aux (i-1) (s.[i]::l) in aux ((String.length s)-1) [];;
<companion_cube> https://github.com/c-cube/IKSML i'll commit a python script when i'm done with it
<everyonemines> Oh hey, it'll even run in the browser!
<everyonemines> That's a killer feature.
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<dsheets> hmm… i wonder what the combinators are for xslt redexes. composition in particular should have sublinear results
<MaskRay> thank you for your fervor, i've scrawed my own string_to_list
<companion_cube> everyonemines: oh, if you want to write a JS version, please do
<everyonemines> no, a lot of browsers will automatically execute xslt
<companion_cube> a fork of the language based on html
<companion_cube> oh, cool
<MaskRay> is there any counterpart of `show' in Haskell which takes any showable atomic data structure (string,int,float,..) or records whose members are all showable, and prints it in a human-readable way
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<MaskRay> dsheets: thanks. i'll look through
<companion_cube> dsheets: I'll wait for your XSLT version, anyway
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<MaskRay> how to load the BatStd module from batteries in the toplevel
<MaskRay> #use "topfind";;
<MaskRay> #require "batteries";;
<MaskRay> then what's the following step?
<_habnabit> that's it; BatStd is now available to you
<MaskRay> open BatStd;; Error: Unbound module BatStd
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<dsheets> companion_cube: reducing nested parens is the hardest part
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<companion_cube> dsheets: i'm going for a very naive implementation
<companion_cube> currified terms
<MaskRay> _habnabit: no batStd in the newest commit b63625c83e9ac78b2636ecc59cef10c9f1f155e4
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<companion_cube> ok, first version of IKSML released!
<olasd> nice and useful google autocorrecting that to "xml"
<companion_cube> :D
<companion_cube> hmm, maybe I should test it
<companion_cube> I'm no expert in XML
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<dsheets> companion_cube: your so unbounded!
<dsheets> s/your/you're/
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<dsheets> companion_cube: merge plz
<adrien> what's IKSML ?
<dsheets> adrien: sk calculus in XML, of course
<dsheets> adrien: it's to introduce fp to the enterprise?
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<MaskRay> how can i use pa_comprehension (batteries) in the toplevel?
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<thelema> MaskRay: use the ocamlinit that comes with batteries?
<thelema> MaskRay: or look into it and the battop.ml for how to load batteries' camlp4 modules
<MaskRay> bunzip2 -c /usr/share/doc/batteries-9999/ocamlinit.bz2 > ~/.ocamlinit
<MaskRay> thelema: your advice works, thanks
<thelema> ocamlinit.bz2? odd
<MaskRay> my package manager Portage keeps all files under /usr/share/doc bzip2ed
<thelema> ah, ok.
<yezariaely> The deriving project introduces a deriving show in ocaml (https://github.com/jaked/deriving) However, the latest version won't compile. Anyone can reproduce it?
<yezariaely> ah maybe I have a solution, gimme a second
<thelema> yezariaely: it compiles fine for me.
<dsheets> seems to build for me
<yezariaely> It works now, I was missing camlp4-extra
<yezariaely> thelema: thank you!
<yezariaely> the error message was kind of weird...
<MaskRay> yezariaely: library to show all showable atomic data structures and there derivative?
<yezariaely> yes, seems like that
<yezariaely> But I am still playing around
<yezariaely> but, there seems to be more which I do not get at the moment
<MaskRay> cool. i'm looking forward to it not long ago
<yezariaely> serializing is possible, as well
<yezariaely> Looks quite usefull
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<MaskRay> yezariaely: this repo doesn't come with a `make install' ?
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<yezariaely> MaskRay: unfortunately not
<yezariaely> I was missing it, too
<yezariaely> MaskRay: However, the Makefile in the test dir shows how to use the library
<MaskRay> yezariaely: i think copying the `lib' directory is enough
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<yezariaely> sure
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<f[x]> there is also ocsigen fork and my deriving repo
<f[x]> both have install targets
<f[x]> ocsigen one is more featureful iirc
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<yezariaely> f[x]: wow, ocsigen is a full blown web development system in ocaml?
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<f[x]> wow, you hear about it for the first time??
<yezariaely> In fact, I do ;-)
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<f[x]> I heard some people even use it
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<yezariaely> f[x]: where can I find your deriving repo?
<f[x]> repo.or.cz/w/deriving.git
<yezariaely> ah, this is a fork to deriving
<yezariaely> MaskRay: maybe this suits you better
<MaskRay> i've alread made my homebrew ebuild to install it...
<thelema> f[x]: hmm, odb can't auto-install your fork - it looks like it runs the old build system and then ocamlbuild, which complains because the old build system litters files everywhere
<thelema> f[x]: mind moving the obuild target first in the makefile?
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<f[x]> thelema, hm, indeed
<f[x]> actually I have that change but not committed :)
<f[x]> done (one year since the last commit, lol)
<thelema> :)
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<Ptival> I have now been waiting for 20 minutes for OMLet to indent my 700-lines function :D
<Ptival> "150 lines to indent..."
<thelema> blah. looks like a bad indenting algorithm
<Ptival> it is particularly slow when indenting the n-th "|" of a variant declaration / a pattern match
<Ptival> from about n = 50, it gets painful :)
<Ptival> now why would you have so many cases?
<Ptival> well... I do.
<thelema> either fix your code or fix the indenter or don't use that indenter
<Ptival> sure
<Ptival> but... vimscript...
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<bnwr> Ptival: maybe you can pipe your code into camlp4
<bnwr> :help filter
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<adrien> when implementing methods for objects, is there a way to implement them outside of the "object ... end" block?
<adrien> actually, like it's done in C++
<adrien> I'd like to avoid having huge blocks of code
<thelema> adrien: inheritance?
<adrien> I don't have inheritance here; I'm using objects only to encapsulate state
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<ppilatus> Hello. How can I create a binary type, that is, a type with two constructors: 0 and 1.
<ppilatus> I know that I can just use `type Binary = a | b', but I was wondering if it is possible to do that with zeros and ones
<thelema> type binary = Z | O
<thelema> nope, can't use numbers as varinat constructors
<thelema> *variant
<ppilatus> I see, thanks.
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<adrien> CAMLprim value win_system(cmd) value cmd;
<adrien> {
<adrien> from otherlibs/win32unix/system.c
<adrien> good old K&R C
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<adrien> gildor: hi, do you know if the commit lists (like https://lists.forge.ocamlcore.org/pipermail/caravel-commits/) are supposed to work? with git?
<adrien> or is there something to do?
<thelema> adrien: probably only works with cvs/svn
<adrien> that's what I'm thinking too; I'm looking for a confirmation
<adrien> I should maybe ask fusionforge people directly
<thelema> or check compat/docs of the commit plugin/feature
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<dsheets> -annot is supposed to create .annot files yes?
<dsheets> build system problem, disregard
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