gildor changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 3.12.1 http://bit.ly/nNVIVH
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<Algo> someone told me "OCaml requires you to have sharp mental math skills"... is this true? I don't think I understand... or that claim even makes any sense
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<Ptival> Algo: I think it's an overstatement :\
<Ptival> not any sharper math skills than what you need for programming in any language
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<mehdid> gildor: ocamlcore.org seems down.
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<everyonemines> Well, you need sharp mental math skills to write the kind of programs people tend to write in ocaml. :-)
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<Ptival> everyonemines: which is not "OCaml requires you to" :)
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<Drakken> I get "Error: Unbound record field label" when I try to access a field in a record whose type is defined in another file.
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<adrien> t.Module.label
<adrien> you need to put the module name, or open, locally or globally
<Drakken> adrien thanks. Does the dot notation in record.field do anything at all? It seems no better than (field record)
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<adrien> hmmm, I don't understand your question: what do you mean by "(field record)"? do you have an example code?
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<Drakken> adrien I mean why doesn't OCaml just use (Module.label t) to access the field? How is t.Module.label any better?
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<daimrod> Hi, is there a way to know how many time an expression takes to evaluate? something like: time fib 10
<avsm> if it makes you feel better, Module.(t.label) works just fine
<adrien> I use it when I get to Module.(t.label.foo.moo.bar.baz)
<adrien> Drakken: what if you have a value/function named label in Module?
<Drakken> adrien is that the only reason? So labels have their own namespace?
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<Drakken> why does Module.(t.label) work if t is a record defined outside of Module?
<adrien> Module.(t.label) is pretty much the same as
<adrien> let open Module in
<adrien> t.label
<adrien> it's open: it does not hide other modules (unless there is a name conflict)
<adrien> and I don't think labels have their own namespace, it's just a different synta
<adrien> x
<Drakken> but that syntax distinguishes between labels and values.
<adrien> how so?
<adrien> well, yes, it distinguishes between the two but I don't see your point; it's quite the typical syntax
<Drakken> because t.label is different from (label t)
<adrien> yes
<adrien> which you need to ensure if you want to be able to have functions and values named "label" too
<adrien> plus, ocaml, from a record definition, a class definition, a type declaration, ..., would never create accessor and setter functions
<adrien> typically, a camlp4 extension could however
* adrien throws a beer at avsm to compensate for the fosdem
<Drakken> It should though. If I define type foo = { name: string } then foo.string should be the getter for the string field.
<adrien> foo.name, you mean
<Drakken> :/
<adrien> and you can access it, yes, but it doesn't generate a new function
<Drakken> but it should.
<adrien> I don't know how they're implemented exactly but I doubt that "foo.name" is a function call; it's most probably a much simpler intstruction
<adrien> it shouldn't! (hold on)
<adrien> in a pretty small project, I have a file "types.ml" for project-wide type definitions; it has records and a rough total of 30 fields; if ocaml generated getters and setters, I would have 60 functions
<Drakken> so?
<bnwr> Drakken: if you want getters generated for fields of records, use camlp4
<bnwr> there's probably some extension out there that does that
<adrien> there's a public pa_whatever for getters and setters in object
<adrien> s
<adrien> by jacques garrigue iirc
<Drakken> The main thing I want is labels that don't conflict with each other.
<adrien> two solutions: 1- different modules/namespaces; 2- objects
<flux> drakken, by 'should be' you mean 'I wish it were so'? I guess this would need to be handled differently then as well: type foo = { mutable name : string }
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<Drakken> flux right, it just seems like a good idea. I suppose getters for mutable fields would be implemented differently, but that shouldn't be too hard.
<flux> well, personally I haven't found field accessors not being functions a problem
<flux> a much bigger problem has been that constructors aren't functions
<flux> because they cannot be curried and then this doesn't work: List.map Some [1; 2; 3]
<adrien> no, I want runtime type information for automated (de)serialization!
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<adrien> Ptival: yup, but I wanted something "now" and to avoid relying on syntax extensions to generate code
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<everyonemines> IIRC MLton has constructors and accessors as functions
<everyonemines> for automated deserialization, rather than runtime type info I think the ML way is to use a hashtable or btree
<everyonemines> of variant types
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<jonafan> what's the best ocaml blog?
<jonafan> i've got janestreet
<thelema> jonafan: you know about the ocaml planet?
<jonafan> hmm, maybe i should subscribe to this
<jonafan> i'm forgetting my ocaml
<jonafan> I've gone from writing an STM monad to rereading my STM monad and going "how did I figure this stuff out???"
<adrien> I like fortunes
<adrien> Eagleson's Law: Any code of your own that you haven't looked at for six or more
<adrien> months, might as well have been written by someone else. (Eagleson is
<adrien> an optimist, the real number is more like three weeks.)
<jonafan> hah
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<Qrntzz> eagleson just had a good memory
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<flux> hmm, so there's code that can be tco'd with one definition of >> but not another definition of >>, when the first is tail recursive but the second (is tail recursive and) uses %reavapply?
<flux> oh, so it was explained that an optimization opportunity can make non-tr code into tr-code
<thelema> flux: if only functions like >> could be inlined
<thelema> as is, the call to >> is mandatory (higher order functions), thus the stack grows
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<flux> hmm, but >> is the last thing it calls, no?
<flux> and f a is the last thing >> calls?
<thelema> hmmm...
<thelema> ok, I don't know then.
<flux> let (>>) a f = f a in let rec f x = x + 1 >> f in f 42;; seems to run in constant-space in my toplevel (little optimizations)
<flux> ptival, if you have a piece of code demonstrating the difference, I would like to see it
<Ptival> flux: oh... let me try that again
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<Ptival> huh... I can't get that C-c C-f working
<Ptival> where can I get ocaml-mode?
<flux> it comes it ocaml
<thelema> Ptival: use newest tuareg, caml-types and caml-help are in ocaml source tree
<thelema> Ptival: does C-c C-t work?
<flux> thelema, what is the version?
<thelema> I just used marmalade to upgrade to 2.05
<thelema> I don't know what version it was added in, low 2.0, I think
<flux> ok, debian unstable is at 2.0.4. I guess I'll stand to wait for a while to get it.
<flux> actually hm
<flux> I have some self-installed tuareg instead
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<Ptival> thelema: C-c C-t doesn't work, I just installed tuareg
<_habnabit> define "doesn't work"
<thelema> Ptival: you need 1) tuareg 2.0.5, 2) caml-types and caml-help (from ocaml distribution) and 3) have compiled with annot.
<thelema> -annot
<_habnabit> actually, as long as we're discussing this..
<_habnabit> is there a way to inform tuareg-mode about an ocamlbuild _build directory? all of my annot files are in there; I've just been cp-ing them out when I need to view annotations
<Ptival> _habnabit: doesn't work as in "not defined" :)
<_habnabit> Ptival, _what_ isn't defined?
<Ptival> I'll get caml-types and caml-help
<thelema> Ptival: yes, you need those for both C-c C-t and C-f
<Ptival> the shortcut itself is undefined
<thelema> tuareg just loads caml-types and caml-help; those files provide annot support
<_habnabit> what if you just M-x caml-types-show-type
<thelema> _habnabit: I bet it won't work because no caml-types to define it
<thelema> if caml-types were loaded, it would set the key shortcut
<Ptival> yes I looked at tuareg.el and it does define them only if some caml-mode is set
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<Ptival> now the shortcut works, but I can't compile it right with -annot
<Ptival> emacs ; C-x C-f /tmp/test.ml ; C-c C-c ; ocamlc -annot ; C-c C-f -> No annotation file. You should compile with option "-annot"
<thelema> ocamlc -annot test.ml
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<Ptival> ok so it's a tail call in this simple setting
<Ptival> I made some tests with Damien Doligez and it seemed that at the time something was preventing TCO
<Ptival> I don't remember what we put exactly, I'll try to find that...
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<Ptival> flux: let rec f la lb x = match la, lb with | x::xs, y::ys -> x >> f xs ys | _, _ -> x
<Ptival> this was what I tried it with
<_habnabit> yeah, that couldn't be tail recursive
<thelema> _habnabit: why?
<_habnabit> oh, >> is %revapply
<_habnabit> never mind
<thelema> :)
<thelema> f xs ys x is clearly tail recursive
<Ptival> if I define let ( >> ) a f = f a, f is a stack call though
<thelema> interesting...
<_habnabit> not exactly the first choice I'd have for a %revapply operator
<Ptival> if I define external ( >> ) : 'a -> ('a -> 'b) -> 'b = "%revapply", I think it was a tail call
<thelema> Ptival: you know that batteries (and many others) use |> for %revapply, right?
<Ptival> thelema: yes maybe I can change my notation, whatever :)
<thelema> It won't hurt for OCaml to have a consistent notation for %revapply
<thelema> (although now that revapply is in the compiler, I don't see why we don't put something using it in the stdlib, other than the bikeshedding over naming)
<Ptival> strange my ocamlc here doesn't like "%revapply", whil I think it's the same version as the one at work
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