flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<flux> whoa, ocaml-ctypes looks amazing
<flux> _finally_ someone did that, I imagine many have had the idea :)
<adrien> \o/
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<asmanur_> it looks nice indeed
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<flux> should make it more easy to write some parts in C, not just binding to libraries
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<adrien_oww> that would require getting the ocaml and writing to a file that would then be compiled
<adrien_oww> (or use tcc)
<adrien_oww> (actually there's occ too, in ocaml)
<flux> I mean simple putting a .c-file along your project
<flux> but without using those caml*-headeres
<flux> which are very easy to get wrong.
<flux> of course, this doesn't solve the problem of safely exchanging complicated data structures (or even structs)
<adrien_oww> well, have a single source to generate both sides rather than risking having them become incoherent
<flux> for that perhaps you could generate C structs from the ocaml data definitions..
<flux> and function prototypes
<adrien_oww> I'll have to actually check ocaml-ctypes but I'd also like a library of converters
<adrien_oww> which you can reuse
<adrien_oww> so there's only implementation of time_t -> ocaml
<flux> from the looks of it, ocaml-ctypes has a bundle of such converters
<flux> and it supports creating your own converters as well that integrate nicely with the foreign type signatures (it calls them 'views' which incorporate both to and from conversions)
<adrien_oww> usable independently?
<flux> probably not
<adrien_oww> =/
<flux> but how often do you have use for such conversions..
<adrien_oww> but that shouldn't be too complicated
<flux> I mean, the same conversions
<adrien_oww> well, not often but when you do, it'd be nice to not have to re-write them
<adrien_oww> I meant conversions for typical Unix or Linux types
<adrien_oww> for API that cannot be handled by ocaml-ctypes typically
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<flux> well, if you were to have such a library, ocaml-ctypes sounds as good (or better) place as any to have it :)
<flux> or maybe that's too platform-specific
<flux> I wonder how many platforms that supports now
<adrien_oww> I believe something like ocaml-ctypes cannot match all FFI needs
<flux> that is probably correct
<flux> but examples of that would probably be helpful, so ocaml-ctypes can be extended :)
<adrien_oww> well, not so long ago a friend of mine was finding himself limited by the ffi module in lua
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<adrien_oww> if that module is a limit, I doubt there won't be the same issues with something in ocaml
* companion_cube not surprised that people talk about ocaml-ctypes
<companion_cube> looks so cool
<flux> companion_cube, now only if you had a library you wanted to bind?-)
<flux> actually an interesting subproject would be to generate that kind of (ocaml) code from header files
<flux> and see how far that could go
<companion_cube> well... that may be the case ^^
<flux> probably just as a tool for doing the first stab and then maintaining manually afterwards
<flux> using frmaa-c, CIL, or clang..
<companion_cube> it may simplify binding with things like minisat \o/
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<Kakadu> I've written this http://paste.in.ua/8348/ code with macaque and I was expecting that skill_id's will be unique in my result list
<Kakadu> mut I failed, they don't
<Kakadu> but*
<Kakadu> I have problem with macaque or should re-read SQL manual again?
<Drup> Kakadu: re-read it ;)
<Drup> Kakadu: the triple (skill_id, exp, descr) will be unique, not each field.
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<wmeyer``> hi
<Kakadu> salut
<wmeyer``> Kakadu: hi
<Kakadu> how r u doing?
<wmeyer``> good, thanks, and you?
* wmeyer`` having a dinner
<Kakadu> wmeyer``: above the average
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<wmeyer``> Kakadu: good to hear :-)
* wmeyer`` tired
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<gasche_> Kakadu: a minor issue with the Macaque code you linked earlier
<wmeyer``> ctypes rocks
<gasche_> in OCaml, (method foo = bar) dos not evaluate bar
<gasche_> so this object declaration will in fact delay extraction of values from the query result row
<gasche_> to be redone each time the method is called
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<Kakadu> It is better to rewrite it with .... ?
<wmeyer``> gasche_: but it shouldn't be self # bar ?
<gasche_> that's maybe not really an efficiency problem (it could be, though) but that's in any case a memory issue, because that means the result row will not be collected before the object itself
<gasche_> wmeyer``: for any expression (bar)
<gasche_> Kakadu: well either use simple records
<gasche_> or use
<gasche_> let foo_data = obj#!foo in object method foo = foo_data end
<wmeyer``> wmeyer`: right. Then I got no idea what you are talking about, not looking at the pastebin
<wmeyer``> but let me check
<Kakadu> wmeyer``: are u speaking with yourself? :)
<gasche_> (should have quoted it when doing my remark, sorry)
<wmeyer``> Kakadu: not really. I'm just participating in the discussion.
<gasche_> Kakadu: it's an extremely minor remark but I think abbreviations (are u ...) are best avoided on the net
<gasche_> (because there is one writer and many readers, so it's better to optimize reading time)
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<Kakadu> gasche_: I'll think about it
<wmeyer``> I always praised Macaque approach.
<wmeyer``> but never used it in my code
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<gasche_> one aspect of Macaque that I dislike is the choice of a specialized comprehension syntax
<gasche_> we'd be better off with just plain SQL query syntax
<wmeyer``> so why you didn't implemented this as SQL?
<wmeyer``> looks good though
<wmeyer``> it feels more Camlish
<wmeyer``> and that's just syntax
<gasche_> I went for the comprehension initially because that was requested by my supervisor(s)
<gasche_> at the time we thought we'd be able to reuse some of the nice equational reasoning work on comprehension/monads
<gasche_> in practice it's hard to hide the semantic details of SQL, and it's generally not what the user wants
<wmeyer``> bare SQL is a very nice DSL
<gasche_> (besides PostGreSQL is good at optimizing whatever primitive query we throw in a sensible way)
<gasche_> also having a separate syntax is one more thing for users to learn
<gasche_> and it makes harder to integrate more SQL features
<gasche_> (eg. other semantics of JOIN)
<gasche_> (than the natural inner one)
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<wmeyer``> many people fall into the pit of putting another abstraction on top of abstraction, in this case it felt more natural to implement just as OCaml comprehensions. But if you in the begining assumed EDSL using monads then this choice is justified.
<gasche_> I hinted heavily at macaque-users (or prospective users) that I would accept patches for a different syntax
<gasche_> and I may/might have found someone ready to work on it a bit
<wmeyer``> gasche_: you know if my time would grow, I'd consider doing it.
<wmeyer``> s/grow/grown/g
<gasche_> :D
<gasche_> I don't personally work on web stuff much, so it's hard for me to evaluate Macaque as a high-priority project
* adrien waters wmeyer``'s time so that it grows
<gasche_> I think ocamlbuild needs our help more right now
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<gasche_> but maybe
* wmeyer`` is wet.
<asmanur_> why ? because several people are rewriting it ?
<gasche_> hm
<gasche_> I'm aware there are a lot of competitors that may very well be interesting of their own
<gasche_> my personal reasoning is that because ocamlbuild is the most easily available, people tend to use it, so improving it helps more people
<gasche_> (and I actually think that ocamlbuild's design is not bad; I wouldn't try to salvage a badly-designed system)
<asmanur_> not when ocp will distribute their own ocaml env :)
<gasche_> well then maybe our priorities will shift
<gasche_> it's not like software is an eternal thing, asmanur_
<gasche_> right now improving ocamlbuid helps people
<wmeyer``> gasche_: Fully agree, and love ocamlbuild approach. That's said it does not scale. We have to fight to keep it alive at the moment.
<gasche_> I would personally appreciate if would-be candidate to OCaml build system highlighted their own design choices more seriously
<gasche_> but probably it's just me being ignorant
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<wmeyer``> there are brand new ones, obuild and Jenga, but they don't solve the same problem.
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<wmeyer``> it's nice to say ocamlbuild src/foo.native - in vanilla tree and get stuff build. It has highly didactic value for people who don't have time to investigate build systems. (students for instance)
<gasche_> what I've seen of Jengo feels like NIH to me
<gasche_> anyway, dinner time
<wmeyer``> ok
<wmeyer``> adrien hey!
<wmeyer``> thanks for the water :-)
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<ollehar1> anyway to emulate higher order kinds for (phantom) types in ocaml?
<asmanur_> ollehar1: perhaps first class modules can be helpful
<asmanur_> for instance you can inject type with a parameter into closed types through modules
<ollehar1> asmanur_: that might work
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<ollehar1> very interesting
<asmanur_> what kind of things do you want to do ?
<ollehar1> emulate the state of a stack in types
<ollehar1> as a wrapper around ocaml-lua
<ollehar1> (Lua communicate with C through a stack)
<asmanur_> hm..yes and what kind of types would you like to write ?
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<ollehar1> so some stack operations can operate on tables, some on array-tables
<ollehar1> some on both
<ollehar1> right now I have
<ollehar1> type 's t
<ollehar1> type empty
<ollehar1> type 's table
<ollehar1> type 's index
<ollehar1> etc
<ollehar1> to make types like
<ollehar1> index table t
<ollehar1> corresponding to stack: -1 => index, -2 => table
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<asmanur_> hm
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<ollehar1> I guess I could design an iterate interface for tables and array-tables
<ollehar1> like getnext
<ollehar1> and provide implementation with functor
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<ollehar1> asmanur_: could you explain more what you mean with inject a type with parameter?
<asmanur_> ollehar1: module type F = sig type 'a t end, type f = (module type F)
<asmanur_> i'm not sure it is so relevant anyway..
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<ollehar1> ok, thanks anyway, I'll make a stackoverflow thread about it
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<spanish> hi
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<spanish> can somebody tell me how would I go into printing out `algo' here?
<spanish> = parser | [< '(Sharp, p1); '(Const (Int algo),_); '(Const (String inc),p2) >] -> Printf.printf "Number is ... %s" ^ algo;
<rks_> remove the ^.
<rks_> (and it seems algo is an int, so use %d instead of %s)
<spanish> thanks. but I get this error: Error: This expression should not be a function, the expected type is
<spanish> sorry, I just had the equal sign before 'parse' twice, what it says now is: This expression has type string but an expression was expected of type
<spanish> int
<spanish> ok I got it, many thanks
<spanish> is it possible, though, to get an existing parser using camlp4o, and give it the option -parser Camlp4ParserDebugger. to have the same unmodified code printing debugging information as it parses a file?
<spanish> or something similar? that would make much easier getting on with this parser
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<Kakadu> can I explain opam to get files from local directory?
<Kakadu> git: "path" doesn't work
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<gour> evening
<gour> in fsahrp wiki book it is stated: "In many ways, F# is essentially a .Net implementation of OCaml.." is it true and/or still valid?
<gour> *fsharp
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<Kakadu> F# is not a subset of OCaml and vice versa
<gour> how much they're similar, iow. is porting from one to the other difficult?
<Kakadu> If many objects are used than you will have problems
<gour> what if one mainly uses FP stuff?
<Kakadu> because OCaml's object system is seriosly different from .NET one
<Kakadu> (in line above you should read 'differ' as 'better')
<Kakadu> about functional stuff....
<Kakadu> OCaml uses many exception which are lightweight. So, in .NET you will need to rewrite it using ('a*'b) result= OK of 'a | Error of 'b
<Kakadu> F# have very promitive module system, no functors
<Kakadu> primitive*
<Kakadu> also, features from 3.12.1 like {struct with x = 5} are not supported
<Kakadu> On the other hand OCaml doesn't have syntax for computational expressions
<jpdeplaix`> Kakadu: euh nope. F# has exceptions
<Kakadu> jpdeplaix`: They are .NET exceptions
<Kakadu> jpdeplaix`: Big, fat, slow .NET exceptions
<gour> i want to write gui app and considering f# can use gtk# which seems to be in better shape than lablgtk?
<gour> i played with haskell in the past, but it was 'too pure' for me :-)
<Kakadu> it has some benefits
<jpdeplaix`> :D :D it's not a resone to hide a feature
<jpdeplaix`> especialy if this is exception
<Kakadu> gour: I can recommend you to take a look at QtQuick and if it will not like you :) than use lablgtk
<gour> Kakadu: how can qtquick help with ocaml?
<gour> i do not want to use C(++) for the project
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<gour> Kakadu: i must say that's something new for me and it was not available when i was considering ocaml
<Kakadu> anyway, I don't like F# and can't recommend it
<Kakadu> I was very confused by it's NRE while creating a diploma
<gour> Kakadu: you believe qml is good enough for 'general desktop' apps?
<gour> Kakadu: what you don't like in f#?
<Kakadu> gour: ask KDE team about that
<gour> I'm not a kde fan...using just i3 wm ;)
<Kakadu> gour: You can look at desktop QtQuick Controls at the bottom of doc
<gour> ocaml compiler should produce quicker code thant f#, right?
<Kakadu> probably
<Kakadu> depends on what are you doing
<Kakadu> okay. about F#
<gour> you're working alone on lablqt?
<Kakadu> almost
<gour> i need to write something like http://saravali.de/screenshots.html using 3rd party C library for calculating planetary ephemeris
<gour> it would be nice that more of ocaml community stands behind it...qt seems to be better choice for for multi-platform apps than gtk
<Kakadu> Are u forced using this 3d library?
<gour> no, that project is done with wx...the 3rd C library i need is only for number crunching
<Kakadu> ah, for math,
<Kakadu> so you are looking for a way to visualise your results?
<gour> well, 2D should be enough for now
<Kakadu> this screenshot? http://saravali.de/pics/screen5.jpg
<gour> Kakadu: more of this stuff http://saravali.de/pics/screen4.jpg
<Kakadu> you can use Canvas API from QtQuick
<gour> don't know if this is job for qml
<Kakadu> I'm almost sure that QtQuick will be OK, gour
<Kakadu> anyway, you can ask guru in #qt-qml
<gour> hmm, let me think about it...i'm going to sleep now. bb tomorrow
<gour> 'night
<Kakadu> me too
<gour> ;)
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<wmeyer``> rks_: hi
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<rks_> hi wmeyer`` :)
<rks_> what's up?
<wmeyer``> a bit out of motivation today, I think the busy week and the sun
<wmeyer``> fortunately I cycle a lot :-)
<rgrinberg> anyone know the reason for this?
<companion_cube> noooes :(
<rgrinberg> :/
<wmeyer``> ough
<rks_> haha :')
<companion_cube> why are there such useful modules in the compiler but not in the stdlib? :/
<wmeyer``> well, maybe the reason is that it might be that it's better to keep the library simple and basic
<wmeyer``> I don't know exactly ...
<companion_cube> the code is already there, and split is a very basic string function -_-
<rgrinberg> wmeyer``: that goal has definitely been over achieved
<companion_cube> shall we comment this commit on github? :D
<rgrinberg> ha ha sure
<rgrinberg> -1
<rgrinberg> everyone
<wmeyer``> rgrinberg: I want to smile, but that's true, it's been achieved, and the developers have better ways of spending time than maintaining stdlib
<companion_cube> does the stdlib really need that much maintainance?
<rgrinberg> wmeyer``: like removing part of it that are already written and documented?
<rgrinberg> companion_cube: whether it does doesn't matter, it sure doesn't get any...
<wmeyer``> i am not saying it's not documented or robust hehehe, but then stdlib would require even more documention :D
<wmeyer``> you can submit a bug in Mantis
<wmeyer``> maybe it would be considered
<rgrinberg> haha i somehow doubt it would work
<rgrinberg> maybe xavier doesn't want to make homework for his undergrads too easy ;D
<wmeyer``> possibly :-)
<companion_cube> wmeyer``: a bug to signal that string lacks a split function? ^^
<rgrinberg> haha who is going to dare
<wmeyer``> maybe that would spawn a discussion on Mantis, where interesting parties would recommend or reject proposal
<rgrinberg> so much bureaucracy for a string split function
<rgrinberg> maybe it's customary in France ^^
<companion_cube> well, let's do it
<wmeyer``> rks_: in general, I am being amazed by Coq power, at the same time disapointed how hard is to write quickly code I could do in OCaml
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<wmeyer``> especially code generation versus EDSLs
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<wmeyer``> how quickly I could write a code generator in Camlp4, writing menhir grammar etc. vs how much time i need invest to do it with depenent typing. (it's not too bad, given I have a robust type system of Coq for my need)
<rgrinberg> if xavier reverted |> or @@ then i'd make a ticket fore sure :D
<companion_cube> I hope it's not too stupid, but I'm going to add a ticket :s
<wmeyer``> oh, don't be to strict, being conservative here is not nesecracy a bad thing.
<companion_cube> just to ask why
* adrien actually needed that split function earlier todayu
<companion_cube> I have an equivalent in some files...
<companion_cube> it's just so common to split along ',' or '\n'...
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<adrien> or / or anything
<companion_cube> also
<companion_cube> let's get bashed on the bugtracker! :D
<wmeyer``> to be honest, i meant, that having a formal documentation of the split is already some work
<rgrinberg> wmeyer``: but it was already there no
<adrien> well, you can get bashed or you can ask what are the conditions for functions to be migrated from the compiler lib to the stdlib
<rgrinberg> fabrice wrote the ocamldoc and the mli and evertything
<wmeyer``> you see, that's the problem, that once the function is introduced, it needs all the details
<wmeyer``> oh I see!
<companion_cube> hmm, how to turn it into a question...
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<wmeyer``> maybe I should not participate in this discussion! :-)
<adrien> put it on your todo first thing tomorrow morning
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<wmeyer``> OK time for me, I wish good night everybody!
<companion_cube> good night wmeyer``
* wmeyer`` going to bed
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