<pippijn>
flux: should I send the updated env as message?
<pippijn>
maybe I'll go with the shared value..
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<flux>
pippijn, well, instead of sharing env you would share a channel, and there could be a third thread maintaining the env and responding to queries about it
<flux>
but maybe it's overkill if you just really need to share one value..
<pippijn>
yeah
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<gnuvince>
When I use the regular OCaml toplevel (not utop) and I try to #use "topfind";; #camlp4o;; #require "core.top";;, I get an error about the global Condition not being found. Am I forgetting a step?
<flux>
probably doing #thread;; fixes it
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<flux>
(after loading topfind)
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<gnuvince>
flux: thanks, I'll try that (recompiling core for 4.01-dev)
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<gnuvince>
flux: that worked nicely, thanks!
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<pygmalion>
Can someone explain why this terminates and returns a value I can use? "let rec ones = 1 :: ones;;"
<pygmalion>
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<flux>
pygmalion, well, ocaml doesn't have values that don't terminate, but they can be infinite
<flux>
pygmalion, that really constructs a value that refers to itself, like a linked list where the last element points to the first
<flux>
in practice that particular case is not very useful.
<pygmalion>
Ah.
<flux>
more useful when constructing pure values involving laziness
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<pygmalion>
flux: Wouldn't you just use a stream, a pipe or a lazy list instead?
<pygmalion>
What is a useful case for this behavior?
<flux>
the useful case is to have a fun demo involving infinite values in ocaml :)
<flux>
and that's about it..
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<flux>
for example you cannot write a function that takes a list and constructs such an infinitely looped list (without using unsafe functionality)
<flux>
so lazy lists, streams, pipes, are all probably better options in general
<pygmalion>
Yeah, okay that makes sense haha
<pygmalion>
Thanks!
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<ggole>
Values that refer to themselves can be very useful. It's the easiest way to implement disjoint sets, for instance.
<ggole>
Of course this is a mutable structure.
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<Breadmonster>
What's the best way to learn OCaml?
<Breadmonster>
I'm learning Haskell too, so that makes OCaml easier,
<Breadmonster>
But is there anything like Real World OCaml?
<companion_cube>
that's a book in preparation with that name
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<gasche>
21:53 < rly> companion_cube: some embedded language in Coq in which you can express linear logic + memory constraints.
<gasche>
there was a paper by Edwin Brady about exactly this in Idris, a few years agoi
<companion_cube>
also, ATS, I guess
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<gasche>
companion_cube: ATS is not really as versatile as Coq, while Agda tries to be (and Idris is quite close to Agda in that regard)
<companion_cube>
oh.
<gasche>
I mean that the expected use case for ATS is not to prove correctness of your programs, but rather their safety
<companion_cube>
I see
<companion_cube>
but I think that the memory constraints are part of this :)
<gasche>
companion_cube: please add in ixSet.mli a clearer explanation of the purpose of the library, plus a usage example
<gasche>
then it'll be redittable material
<companion_cube>
:D
<companion_cube>
it's not really production-ready, just the product of yesterday's discussion with Drup
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<gasche>
not being production-ready is not a problem for a reddit submission
<gasche>
not being documented is
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<companion_cube>
sure, sure
<gasche>
unrelated: I've heard good things of John Whitington's recent book "OCaml from the Very Beginning"
<companion_cube>
I didn't know I was to write redditable code ;)
<gasche>
it's hard to recommend it as beginners material given that there is no free version online
<gasche>
but still it's good to know
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<companion_cube>
gasche: I updated it
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<flux>
companion_cube, cool, I've been wanting such a module for some time (indexed set)
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<flux>
(actually I even have written one, but it's owned by a former employer)
<companion_cube>
flux: it's almost just a proof of concept here, but it should be easy to extend :)
<companion_cube>
hey, the coloring stuff of github is neat!
<flux>
I called mine however indexed map.. I don't quite remember how it worked, I think there were subtle differences to that
<flux>
the use case (was for example) that there is a map of devices, from id to device, and the device would know if it was connected or not (or some other state) and you could easily go through all connected (or disconnected) devices
<flux>
so I guess there would be a set of devices in this case
<flux>
what was essential though was that there could be multiple different representations for a value, depending which index it was retrieved through
<companion_cube>
oh
<companion_cube>
looks much more sophisticated than this then
<flux>
more sophisticated is not always better, I recall it was more complicated to get running :)
<Kakadu>
Guys, when I'm trying to install ocp-indent via opam it wants to download ocp-build.1.99.6-beta.tar.gz which doesn't exist. Is it a bug?
<companion_cube>
flux: here it's a bit clumsy to create an empty map :/
<companion_cube>
Kakadu: did you opam update?
<Kakadu>
companion_cube: yes, ofcourse
<companion_cube>
then it's time to wank the maintainers :]
<Armael>
opam is going sooo slow these days
<companion_cube>
oooops
<companion_cube>
wrong word
<companion_cube>
-_-
<Armael>
:d
<companion_cube>
the word was "spank".
<flux>
talk about freudian slip..
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<companion_cube>
it's just I forgot to check in the dictionary, which I definitely should for such... semantically sensitive words
<adrien_oww>
nah, don'; we'd be sad to not read such slips :-)
<companion_cube>
it's all to improve the life on this channel!
<adrien_oww>
by wanking and spanking? hmmm
<Cypi>
We should keep a monthly quote in the topic.
<adrien_oww>
agreed, it's tempting :-)
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<companion_cube>
Cypi: just send a digest to the mailing list
<companion_cube>
wait, I didn't say that.
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<gasche>
quote is a good idea, but maybe not the sexually explicit jokes
<gasche>
(regardless of whether they were intentional at writing time)
<adrien_oww>
yes; that's why I haven't copied it :-)
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<Zeev>
could u help me out? I'm still trying to use camlImages, I've set opam on ubuntu, did opam install camlImages, trying to launch "ocaml converter.ml" and I get "Unbound module OImages" maybe I'm missing some compiler switch
<gasche>
you need to tell the OCaml compiler that you're using those third-party libraries
<gasche>
do you use a build system or compile stuff / write makefile by hand?
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<Zeev>
I tried both in ocamleditor, and also with command line: ocaml converter.ml
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<gasche>
for by-hand compilation that would be
<Zeev>
maybe I'm not reading much manual (too little of it)
<gasche>
ocamlfind ocamlc -package camlimages -c converter.ml, for example
<gasche>
(option -c will not generate an executable)
<Zeev>
thanks
<gasche>
I suppose OCamlEditor also supports findlib/ocamlfind, so there must be a form somewhere to indicate which "packages" you use
<Zeev>
awesome
<Armael>
how would it be, using ocamlbuild ? "-lib camlimages" ?
<gasche>
note that "camlimages" is my imagined name for the ocamlfind package, it may be camlImages or caml-images etc. (`ocamlfind list | grep images` to find out)
<gasche>
(-lib are for the parts of the standard library that are not linked in by default: Unix, Str, Graphics, etc.)
<gasche>
so yeah Zeev you may be interested in "ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind -package camlimages converter.byte"
<gasche>
the difference between direct invocation of ocamlfind, and ocamlbuild (or other build systems), is that the build system will know which steps to execute to produce the desired "target"
<gasche>
here converter.byte implicitly mean "produce a bytecode program out of converter.ml and its dependencies"
<gasche>
there are also converter.native (native program), converter.cmo (just a bytecode object file), converter.inferred.mli (only type-checks and return the inferred interface)...
<gasche>
manual invocation is also fine if you want to understand the compilation+linking process, but you will have to read the manual for that
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<gasche>
("manual" meaning here "your learning document", not really the OCaml Reference Manual which is not the most didactic for the outside-the-language things)
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<gasche>
Zeev: I was going to discourage you from using one of those fancy, fragile language-specific IDEs and keep the tried-and-true ways of Emacs or Vim, but ocamleditor actually looks reasonable and alive so that may be a fine choice
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<gasche>
(I don't have the illusion that Emacs and Vim are easy for beginners to handle, but I think "not being comfortable with that powertool" is a better problem to have during the learning process than "not being sure whether I did it wrong or the editor is just broken" of less-used tools)
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<Armael>
oh, ocamleditor seems nice
<Armael>
i was expecting something like an eclipse mode, but it is written from scratch
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<Drup>
Armael: there is also an ocaml eclipse mode, if you really want to .... :x
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<Armael>
yeah, no
<Armael>
but i know someone who use it, and he's really happy of it!
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<Kakadu>
Is there an easy way to force opam to rebuild ocaml 4.00.1 and keep libraries installed before?
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<pippijn>
in lwt, I want to send a PING message to a server every 2 minutes
<pippijn>
but Lwt_timeout takes a (unit -> unit)
<pippijn>
so that can't send things (it would need to return unit Lwt.t
<gasche>
(it's pretty dumb as an implementation, the point was solely to clarify the user-side code)
<companion_cube>
interesting
<companion_cube>
I vaguely recall that the implementation of the Logic monad is not totally trivial (for fairness reasons), but still
<gasche>
note how *non*-monadic the 'bind' operator is
<companion_cube>
yeah. it's more a map
<gasche>
(it's just map, but used syntactically as a binding)
<companion_cube>
and even an homeomorphism
<companion_cube>
I think the monad approach is really interesting
<gasche>
monadic bind allows you to have some part of the search behavior that is directed not by its structure, but by the values it computes
<gasche>
if you don't *need* that, it's probably a bad idea to put it at the core of your system
<gasche>
(that's the reason why people worked on Arrows when they realized monadic parsing combinators are not efficient)
<companion_cube>
gasche: I think this kind of things can be useful in other cases, where you just have a few alternatives and want a solution
<companion_cube>
kind of like a mini-prolog
<companion_cube>
(mini-kankren?)
<companion_cube>
gasche: but arrows seem even harder without syntactic sugar :/
<gasche>
my use case for this library is to search a derivation for a given type
<gasche>
the structure of the search space is entirely directed by the structure of the input type; which subderivations are found (or not) do not influence how other subderivations are searched for
<gasche>
so it does not need the expressivity of a monad
<gasche>
(I'm not sure most people understand this implication of having a monadic API)
<companion_cube>
so you think it's really slower to use monads?
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<gasche>
as I said, in this particular case my implementation is really stupid anyway, so it's not really a performance reason (though it would become one would I decide to optimize the implementation)
<gasche>
it's more than I don't want to *think* about the problem using an operation that is more powerful that what I really need
<companion_cube>
sure, that's why it takes more effort, enough to make it a library ;)
<gasche>
reasoning about imperative code is hard
<gasche>
reasoning about code using the state monad is also hard, for exactly the same reason
<gasche>
if you don't need to write code in this style, you should avoid it; and use a style where programs are expressed in a form that is easier to reason about
<companion_cube>
gasche: I never said it's good to write everything in a monadic style
<gasche>
I don't think we're in disagreement, I'm just trying to make my point clear
<companion_cube>
just that sometimes, if you need a bit of non-determinism, a backtracking monad can be the best style
<gasche>
companion_cube: do you have a realistic use case where you really need a monacid bing for backtracking?
<gasche>
s/bing/bind/
<companion_cube>
gasche: if you want to make a choice on 3 integers, and a choice on 2 strings?
<gasche>
can you elaborate?
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<companion_cube>
if you implement the well-known problem of Einstein (the houses, with pet owners etc.)
<companion_cube>
you need to make several "kinds" of choice, iirc
<gasche>
I see
<gasche>
you mean the solution to some part of the search space impact the structure of other parts
<companion_cube>
yes, it's for a product of choices
<companion_cube>
one can have different choices on different types
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<companion_cube>
wasn't there a IRC bot here, once?
<companion_cube>
a bot that would evaluate OCaml
<adrien_oww>
xavierbot
<adrien_oww>
perl bot
<adrien_oww>
and then there was another one
<companion_cube>
but no one runs them? or are they outlawed? :)
<companion_cube>
distributed actors library for OCaml, heh
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<nicoo>
companion_cube: Thanks for ixCube, by the way. I'll try to have a look at the code when I have some more time.
<companion_cube>
ixSet you mean? :)
<nicoo>
Yes, sorry
* nicoo
's brain is overflowing with TeX right now.
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<amiller_>
i'm really not sure how to approach this goal of splicing in new code to the typed tree :/
<amiller_>
the overlaoding blog example is pretty simple because it doesn't actually require creating much new code it just substitutes a single identifier for a choice of existing identifiers provided
<amiller_>
basically i see two approaches one is to just generate a bunch of text source code and append it to the end of a file somewhere
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<amiller_>
the other is to programmatically generate new functions and insert them that way
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<amiller_>
into the typedtree i mean
<amiller_>
now that i think about it, a third approach is as follows
<amiller_>
use the typedtree to figure out the appropriate types, and associate these types with locations
<amiller_>
then i do my code splicing in just the *untyped* ast
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<gnuvince>
Is it possible to have "anonymous" record types in OCaml? Some like: type x = X of {a:int; b:float} ?
<amiller_>
gnuvince, yes! variant types
<amiller_>
oh
<ggole>
Objects sort of let you do it
<ggole>
But no, not really
<amiller_>
i misread your eample
<ggole>
Named constructor arguments would be nice.
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<gnuvince>
ggole: so I need to start with type t = {a:int; b:float} and then type x = X of t
<gnuvince>
thanks
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<jpdeplaix>
gnuvince: yes, with objects you can do this like: « type x = X of <a:int; b:float> »
<ggole>
Records are an additional indirection: objects would have overhead on top of that.
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<Drup>
access the field of an object is almost equivalent as a lookup in an hashtable, a regular record is the same as a tuple (so 1 indirection on access).
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<gasche>
companion_cube: you did your documentation wrong: that should be inside ixSet.mli, in ocamldoc syntax, so that automatic generation (by e.g. Godi) shows that to users
<orbitz>
what does Ix mean in the context of a set?
<gasche>
companion_cube: ah the plural of "index" is generaly "indices"
<gasche>
companion_cube: and if I can keep trolling you, you need a META file and #use "indexed-set";;
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<gasche>
(instead of a META you could also use an _oasis file)
<adrien>
companion_cube: you have no META? and you're not using ocamlfind to compile either I guess?
<adrien>
where's my whip?
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<gasche>
"This page is temporarily in read-only mode due to heavy traffict"; reddit/ocaml!
<orbitz>
unforautnely that doesn' mean much i suspect :)
<gasche>
nah
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<amiller_>
is the ocaml.precast.ast kind of AST the same as the one that untypeast.ml produces
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<amiller_>
i can't figure out how to use loc :/
<hnrgrgr>
amiller_: no. Ocaml.Precast.Ast is a custom ast used by camlp4
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<amiller_>
hnrgrgr, do you think i can rely on the locations being the same
<amiller_>
basically i am doing a type-directed transformations so i need to traverse the Typedtree to learn about the inferred types in some places, but then I want to go splice new code into some untyped AST using camlp4 quoting
<amiller_>
so maybe my plan should be to traverse the typedtree, save whatever information i need in some database file or something, then make an camlp4 transformer that looks up in the database to know what translation to do
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<amiller_>
still this AST_mapper in trunk should help
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<ousado>
for the untyped part it's great
<ousado>
amiller_: ah, have you looked at merlin?
<amiller_>
i'm pretty concerned i'm going to run into difficult case after difficult case, especially for essentially variant types where i have to make alternate versions of every type declaration and keep track of them
<amiller_>
i don't know how i'll keep track of all the new names and how loose i can be with providing ghost locations for all the code
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<pippijn>
is there a working example of Lwt_read_line completion?
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<pippijn>
also, when will debian get ocaml 4.00.1? there has been a release, where is the update?
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<polynomial2>
can anyone tell me why I am getting this error? http://codepad.org/X1FBScum I thought scene_elem is supposed to be a variant?
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<polynomial2>
nevermind got it
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<amiller_>
ugh where's pprintast in trunk
<amiller_>
ah it's in parsing
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<vext01>
does anyone remember where the list comprehensions code moved to?
<vext01>
a github repo oorc
<vext01>
iirc
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<ollehar>
what do we call an instance of a record type? instance?
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<troydm>
ollehar: an instance of an record, or just simply record