flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.01.0 http://bit.ly/1851A3R | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<adrien> I'm not sure I want to get into the thread on the ML but I'm surprised noone has mentionned that if there are more contributions and as much work per patch for the people who can commit to the tree, then everything will be bottlenecked
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<gasche_> adrien: one contribution area would be patch review
<adrien> I believe that more than the technology underneath, it's a change in the way things are organized that is needed
<adrien> (simply because the community has grown a lot in the recent years and the number of people who want to contribute has too)
<adrien> but then I'm not sure how things would be done :)
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<gasche_> adrien: if you have good suggestions, I'm all ears
<gasche_> currently the model is pretty much "people that care don't have enough time to work on everything, so what gets worked on progresses, the rest does not"
<gasche_> I think this model is able to absorb a reasonable growth until the "not enough time to work on everything" predicate becomes false
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<gasche_> by the way adrien
<gasche_> Benoît Vaugon told me he had done some horrible hacks to get a linux->windows cross-compiler and people like that, I told him to look at your work and possibly contribute on review and general progress
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<adrien> I think the model is not bad but things need to be improved here and there and contributors are often not sure how to proceed (mailing-list, bug tracker, against stable or trunk, using git or not, ...)
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<adrien> gasche_: ah, that's a good thing :)
<adrien> the existing patches were indeed quite horrible in some places; I guess he pretty much reused them?
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<adrien> I'm going to try to do another update, at least for the last bits that caused issues because it's really the biggest stuff left
<adrien> really not sure how to do
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<adrien> I'm waiting for the splits to stop (camlp4, labltk)
<gasche_> I think he did his own stuff
<adrien> because, for instance, Jacques Garrigue had has issues with some changes with camlp4 when bootstrapping and obviously, that wouldn't have happened with camlp4 outside of the compiler tree :)
<gasche_> mostly a huge script that builds stuff, changes stuff, rebuild stuffs, etc., until it works
<adrien> hmm
<adrien> he probably wasn't aware there were patches around (before even mine)
<gasche_> yes, I think he wasn't
<gasche_> he is now, but as everyone he's quite time-limited so may not show a sign of activity before a while
<adrien> (I need to leave soon)
<adrien> ok
<adrien> I've also been wondering if a mailing-list should be created for "ocaml-reviews" or something like that
<adrien> basically, send patches and discuss
<adrien> now I'm waiting for rks` to say he thinks github's way is still better
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<whitequark> adrien: take a look at phabricator
<whitequark> LLVM generally uses the ML approach but it leads to patches getting lost, very, very frequently
<whitequark> and phabricator proved to be quite useful
<whitequark> plus it integrates with ML bidirectionally, and old-school folks can have it their way
<gasche_> my impression is that it's hard to sell tooling changes, and more generally "more work", to current devs on the not-that-convincing promise of "more external contributions"
<rks`> oh no adrien
<gasche_> maybe "current tooling doesn't work for reason X, so we should change" would be more convincing, but this is hard to demonstrate (in fact I'm not sure it's correct)
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<rks`> I'd never say that
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<rks`> vim works only with a ML
<rks`> and it looks wonderful
<gasche_> phabricator looks nice, why didn't I hear about before?
<gasche_> rks`: is the-lambda-church the new official home for Merlin?
<rks`> yes, we still have to make an official page
<rks`> but yes
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<rks`> but adrien, I'll only ask: how would your ML list improve over mantis?
<rks`> the only point I can think of which would please you is: the archives would be even harder to access
<rks`> (because ofc, since it's for ocaml it would be on the "sympa" thing)
<adrien> whitequark: I know phabricator
<adrien> it looked good
<adrien> but it's not in practice
<adrien> too many "ph" everywhere and words which aren't that clear
<adrien> bug tracker is a bit weird, ...
<adrien> well, I don't know the code review stuff though
<adrien> I think LLVM gets many more patches than OCaml would
<adrien> gasche_: hmm, for the mailing list, the goal would rather be to get more reviews from non-core devs
<adrien> I don't check every bug report on the bug tracker
<whitequark> adrien: I think they have a translation without all the weirdness?
<adrien> I think so too but I don't know if it's up-to-date
<rks`> adrien: and why would you check every thread on a ML if you don't check every PR on mantis?
<rks`> at least people wanting to move to github come with real arguments.
<adrien> it's not for bug reports but for patches; and (with a proper email client), it's easy to skim through your mails
<adrien> patches and discussions around patches
<adrien> rks`: <3
<rks`> oh you mean, like the "pull requests" page on github?
<rks`> (see, I can be friendly ;))
<adrien> as you said: that doesn't work with vim :P
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<adrien> and actually, I can read the linux kernel mailing lists and the patches that get posted along with the comments way better than anything I've seen on github
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<rks`> good for you
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<oriba> For understanding GADT it seems that I need also to know polymorphic recursion. I looked up the term and I#m not sure if I understand it correctly.
<oriba> What my understanding is so far: depending on the recursion step, the return value can have different type,
<oriba> but all possible types are covered in one polymorphic type
<oriba> Looks a bit like typ foo = Type1 of int | Type2 of char
<oriba> This also can give back Type1 or Type2
<oriba> But I need pattern matching. Is polymorphic recurion something like this, but without the need for matches?
<oriba> Any simple examples that exoplain polymorphic recursive type (annotation)?
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<Drup> adrien : you can recieve bug report and pull request through mail with a link to the git branch, the diff and the patch.
<Drup> you can even reply to it through your mail client, and it will be on github like a normal comment
<Drup> (all that in github)
<ggole> oriba: you can pattern match on GADTs
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<ggole> A simple non-recursive example would be: type _ foo = Type1 : int -> int foo | Type2 : char -> char foo let test : type a . a foo -> a = function | Type1 x -> x | Type2 x -> x
<ggole> As you can see the return type depends on the GADT parameter
<adrien_oww> Drup: ah, that's nice; that still leaves the fact I won't sign up because of the ToS :P
<adrien_oww> (and that I find it sad to give up on controlling your infrastructure)
<Drup> adrien : this is a real issue
<Drup> and I quite agree with it
<adrien_oww> f00d
<Drup> but don't bring technical reason to the table if the issue is not technical :)
<Drup> and also : http://gitlab.org/
<whitequark> adrien: ToS?
<Drup> Terms of Service
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> what exactly is a problem?
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<whitequark> (your own infrastructure) true, but it's a hassle, plus GH actively enables you to take out all of your data, shall such a need arise
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<oriba> ggole, hmhh, ok, the type is dependent on foo, but even I did not used this stuff for more then juast exploring, it looks natural to me somehow. But 3.11 does say syntax error and 4.00 accepts it. Is "foo" the parameter? And what does the "_" stand for? I only sax examples with "_", and no other examples. So I don#t know how to use differently. Also I wonder, why you don't used someting like "type a."; me was told that "a." stuff is needed fo
<oriba> r GADTs because of necessarity of explicit type annotations for polymorphic recursion.
<oriba> So I'm a bit confused.
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<Drup> "type a." is a bit stronger than "a."
<Drup> did you read the manual about that part ?
<Drup> there is a mail from gasche_ on the ml about that
<Drup> look around the 04/06/2013
<ggole> oriba: the _ indicates a gadt parameter that has no explicit use
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<ggole> You can read type _ foo as type 'a foo, without needing a name for 'a
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<ElvanorMoscow> Is there a way to specify the target directory of ocamlfind install via an environment variable?
<ElvanorMoscow> I have several packages I wish to install in /usr/local/opt, and they seem to use ocamlfind install
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<Drup> ElvanorMoscow: yes, you should find that in ocamlfind manual
<Kakadu> ElvanorMoscow: findlib.conf probably
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<adrien_oww> Drup: gitlab is complex to setup however
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<Drup> well, you were talking about the infrastructure, make a use of it
<adrien_oww> migrating a bug tracker or an SCM is quite a lot of work and there are always stuff that is lost
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<adrien_oww> I don't know who's responsible for the infra: ocaml people or generic guys at inria (for the whole of inria)
<Drup> scm is not an issue, we already have a git version of the repository
<adrien_oww> and I think it's the former
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<Drup> (don't get me wrong : I don't really care about this discussion, since the people who decide don't really care about our arguments on the matter. I just want you not to bring invalid points :p)
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<adrien_oww> imho the first step is to write down rules on contributing
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<Drup> but I agree completly with markus mottl on the matter
<Drup> (and I also don't think anything is going to happen after this discussion.)
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<avsm> i really don't like GitLab though. Switching the experiment to gitorious instead
<rks`> Hmm.
<rks`> Is there something in particular or?
<adrien_oww> aaaaahhhhhhhhhh
<adrien_oww> Damien Doligez is re-doing some of the changes I had done in cross-compiler support
<avsm> great!
<adrien_oww> well
<adrien_oww> patches won't apply cleanly :P
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<Drup> avsm: I actually never tried gitlab (except toy playing), do you have specific remarks ?
<adrien_oww> so, yeah, I think there should be a link named "Contribute" at the top of ocaml.org; and with some content too :P
<ElvanorMoscow> I am trying to install the package ocamlfuse, however once install ocamlfind query does not find it
<avsm> adrien_oww: file an issue on that on github.com/ocaml/ocaml.org/issues
<avsm> drup: hard to maintain, poor support for public projects, requires user accounts. we just want a R/O mirror
<Drup> avsm: oh, just for R/O mirror it's indeed a bit overkill
<avsm> ElvanorMoscow: what OS? it only works reliably on Linux
<avsm> ElvanorMoscow: dsheets is working on a more portable replacement
<ElvanorMoscow> ElvanorMoscow: I am on Linux
<ElvanorMoscow> the package got installed in /usr/lib64/ocaml/site-packages/ocamlfuse
<ElvanorMoscow> I tried to move it to /usr/lib64/ocaml/, without success
<ElvanorMoscow> how does ocaml query searches for its list of packages?
<ElvanorMoscow> Any ideas??
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<ElvanorMoscow> /usr/bin/ocamlfind query -format %d Fuse
<ElvanorMoscow> this is the command the configure step uses
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<adrien_oww> avsm: well, my main issue with the lack of that page on the website is that I have no idea about what to put on it :) (I think the best is to raise that on the ML)
<adrien_oww> Fuse, with a capital 'F'? you can run "ocamlfind list" and check everything is as you expect
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<adrien> win-builds 1.3 rc1 :)
<adrien> need to mail the caml-list about it later today
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<rwmjones> does bmeurer hang out here?
<adrien_oww> I think I've seen him from time to time but it's probably not the best place to talk to him
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* rwmjones tries to find an email addr ..
<adrien_oww> I think I've already seen it
<adrien_oww> worst case, look at the xfce contributors
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<rwmjones> ok I'm good
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<adrien> rwmjones: also, the aarch64 (what a crappy name) was done by Xavier Leroy iirc
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<whitequark> I think aarch64 was a plot by arm to instantly derail any criticizm of the architecture itself
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<gasche_> rwmjones: there was a change in the exception's representation by Alain in trunk that touched code that could be the end of your trace
* rwmjones looks for that ..
<gasche_> SVN commit 14275
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<gasche_> github/ocaml/ocaml hash b9117544349c5cf41463db6160e7f16ef61626a0
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<gasche_> rwmjones: one way to see whether that's the issue is to checkout/revert to a previous safer state, such as trunk@14221 349f151c0d7f0747d03a1e6d9a0696d480523abf
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<gasche_> (this also mean we may need continuous integration for aarch64)
<rwmjones> ok I'll try that
<adrien> gasche_: step 0: get the hardware :P
<rwmjones> a git bisect *would* be a good idea, but unfortunately it takes about an hour to compile OCaml using qemu-arm64 ..
<adrien> although qemu could work but hw would be nice too
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<gasche_> yeah, I was thinking qemu
<adrien> it's going to be fairly slow
<adrien> which is a pity considering an aarch64 machine would be fast enough
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<rwmjones> gasche_: 349f151c0d7f0747d03a1e6d9a0696d480523abf fails in the same way
<rwmjones> gasche_: no wait, I'm not sure about that yet
<rwmjones> actually, yes I am sure, it's failing
<gasche_> ok
<gasche_> sorry for wasting your time
<rwmjones> I'm going to go back to 055d5c0379e42b4f561cb1fc5159659d8e9a7b6f which is the arm64 merge commit
<rwmjones> see if that works ..
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<rwmjones> same thing on 055d5c0379e42b4f561cb1fc5159659d8e9a7b6f
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<ollehar> merry xmas to all!
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<phix> hey gang
<phix> Be gentle with me
* Kakadu unpacks popcorn
<phix> Lets Java
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