<ousado>
orbitz: uhm. that guy seems to consider ocaml 'not expressive'
<orbitz>
Where does he say that?
<whitequark>
I think that remark was about C
<ousado>
[...] It could be less hard for languages like C and OCaml. On the other hand, if you don’t choose a language that’s expressive, refactoring becomes almost impossible [...]
<orbitz>
those are sperate bullet points
<ousado>
OTOH can hardly not refer to something written above it
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<orbitz>
No i think he's just laying out various facts
<ousado>
so what's the one hand to that other hand in your opinion?
<flux>
maybe that bullet just wasn't written very well if its whole meaning is open to interpretation :)
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<ousado>
I think that's just a dynamic guy who doesn't really care about how "C or Ocaml" differ significantly. I mean.. "C or OCaml" - that's pretty close to "assembler or Coq"
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<orbitz>
No, the author actaully quite likes ocaml
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<smiler>
It's a guy who dislikes "bad" runtimes.
<orbitz>
who likes them?!
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<smiler>
Quite a few apperently :|
<adrien_oww>
well, I heard there are people who write in ruby and python
<orbitz>
sure, but i think the point is about which things matter at scale
<orbitz>
i write a lot of bash
<orbitz>
and i'm completly happy with it, up until it hits a point
<orbitz>
then it sucsk
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<whitequark>
adrien_oww: writing in ruby doesn't mean liking its runtime
<whitequark>
until very recently (2.1, which isn't released), its GC was stop-the-world and not generational
<whitequark>
and, I don't really know how, but it managed to significantly slow down when evolving from AST-waling interpreter to bytecode one... it was 2x at first, then it was ironed out but still
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<ggole>
There was a talk a while back by one of the PyPy guys about "why Ruby isn't slow"
<ggole>
Wonder how their Ruby impl actually stands up though
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<ousado>
they also talk about how "types don't help performance at all"
<ggole>
Right, that's why Javascript added typed arrays. Because they don't help.
<ousado>
indeed
<ggole>
(And Common Lisp, way before that.)
<ousado>
and hidden classes and stuff
<smiler>
If not for performance it helps keeping me sane.
<ggole>
Yeah. Even if there was zero performance win I'd still prefer types.
<ousado>
.. and region inference
<whitequark>
region inference is a pain to work with, at least as it's implemented in Rust
<ggole>
Speculative techniques may not help as much with things like ADTs, too
<ousado>
region inference is an alternative approach to collecting short lived objects
<ggole>
I suspect having all the information up front is a big advantage in compiling pattern matching effectively.
<ggole>
Though I suppose that isn't an issue for Ruby.
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<ousado>
either way pypy is an interesting experiment that pretty clearly shows how insanely huge the effort is to even bootstrap a semi-usable runtime when fully committing to a few random dogmas (with "types are evil" in a prominent place)
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<ggole>
The idea of making dynamic decisions cheap with speculative optimisations is well established, and the idea of making such a facility programmatically available seems interesting.
<ggole>
But as a basis for implementing languages, it's pretty crazy.
<ousado>
yes, but writing that in "everything python, no types" is insane
<ousado>
yes, what you said
<ousado>
I mean.. "PyPy is a very compliant Python interpreter, almost a drop-in replacement for CPython 2.7" WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2013
<ousado>
mind the 'almost' there, after all these years
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<ggole>
That's probably half Python's fault
<ggole>
Years of "shove everything into C" probably doesn't result in the cleanest basis upon which to reimplement a language and standard library.
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<watermind>
this is a bit quiet, hope it's ok to go on a tangent...
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<adrien_oww>
NO§
<adrien_oww>
!
* adrien_oww
runs away
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<watermind>
one thing I never got about Moggi's computational lambda calculus papers was how he avoided interpreting let x = e in e' as syntactic sugar for (fun x => e') e
<watermind>
instead he gives it direct semantics which are basically monadic composition
<watermind>
now... how would that differ from using the syntact sugar above?
<watermind>
at least with simple monads (e.g. error monad) I can't see any difference
<adrien_>
robert_: there has been no release with that patch included?
<robert_>
nope.
<robert_>
(so far as I can see.)
<rks`>
robert_: even if there hasn't been, the opam package includes the patch
<rks`>
so you don't need to install lwt from git
<robert_>
ah, okay.
<Drup>
robert_: there is release from 2 month ago, it should include the patch
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<robert_>
Drup: Well, apparently not.
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<robert_>
Drup: Even with 2.4.3 it still fails the exact same way.
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<robert_>
rks`: I would like to install this with the ArchLinux' packaging system so you can make sure things are installed correctly; can I download and not compile packages or something?
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<rks`>
robert_: can't help you sorry
<robert_>
nevermind,I figured it out. :D
<robert_>
nevermind, *
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