flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.03.0 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.03.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<steshaw> wondering whether ocaml guarantees LCO (last call optimisation)?
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<toolslive> what is that ?
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<toolslive> (if it's tail call optimization then the answer is: "no, it does not guarantee it, but you can have it if you write your code the right way")
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<zaquest> i wonder what toolslive meant. is it not enough to have a tail call to get TCO? is there something else required?
<steshaw> LCO is sometimes said to be a generalisation of TCO
<steshaw> Often TCO is only done for self-recursive functions
<steshaw> or ones in the same module
<steshaw> LCO is the idea that any function in the "last position" won't "grow the stack"
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<flux> well, that holds true in OCaml
<steshaw> great
<flux> I've never seen the term LCO though, though I've seen many discussions on the subject :)
<steshaw> Some would say it's not even an optimisation
<steshaw> It's just "function call" done right :)
<flux> tail call elimination is another term I've seen for it
<flux> well, Guido might have a word about that.. :)
<flux> I understand his reason for omitting it from python is the effect it has on backtraces.
<steshaw> ah, apparently you can have your cake and eat it too
<steshaw> Often it's just called tail calls, TCO, or tail call elimination as you say
<steshaw> but then there's a list of limitations (such as only for self-recursive functions, not for inter-module dependencies etc.)
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<steshaw> In light of https://github.com/stedolan/malfunction/ it was worth ensuring that OCaml did the right thing. Thanks flux!
<flux> steshaw, btw, ocaml nowadays has an attribute for helping developer to ensure that an actual tail call is occurring
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<flux> steshaw, ie. let foo a = (a [@tailcall]) () + 42
<steshaw> that sounds nice.
<flux> that produces a warning that a is not in tail-call position
<steshaw> Is it built in or some extension?
<flux> it is built-in, but it uses the extension syntax
<steshaw> I haven't used OCaml much for a long time
<flux> well, you should try it. opam and merlin are super ;-)
<flux> also ppx.
<steshaw> I did recently build plzoo's miniml
<steshaw> it required menhiir
<steshaw> spam was easy to use
<steshaw> opam
<flux> menhir != merlin
<steshaw> I haven't tried merlin
<flux> though I actually mistook the name first as well ;)
<steshaw> I believe that's the editor integration, no?
<flux> well, merlin is only useful if you use emacs, vim or some other supported editor (atom? visual code?)
<flux> yes
<flux> you save and you get the errors right away
<flux> plus typing information and symbol-origin lookup
<steshaw> I wasn't writing ocaml I was just reading it (porting the program to Idris)
<steshaw> I'm going to take a look at Leroy's Modular Modules paper now
<steshaw> It has lots of OCaml code so maybe I'll give it a go
<flux> for any particular reason or just general interest?
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<steshaw> mostly general interest
<steshaw> I'd like to dig into ML style module systems
<steshaw> For me, code is easier to understand than inferences rules in papers. At the moment anyhow
<steshaw> I'm kind of searching for a thesis topic
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<sshine_> steshaw, all a matter of syntax, innit?
<steshaw> what is?
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<aantron> its amazing how many bugs actual testing uncovers
<companion_cube> have you tried random testing? ;)
<flux> afl is super for testing binary parsers :)
<aantron> companion_cube: not there yet :)
<flux> I guess it'd work with ocaml programs as well with its qemu-support
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<cheater> hey guys, any ideas on how to get ctrl-n and ctrl-p to work in utop?
<cheater> the one thing i'm missing from its readline emulator
<flux> not "the one" but rather "one" :)
<flux> I believe that could be configured, though
<chengsun> cheater: is this what you're after? https://github.com/diml/utop#key-bindings
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<chengsun> running lambda-term-actions should give the list of action names
<chengsun> you're probably after "history-prev" and "history-next"
<cheater> yes
<cheater> i am
<cheater> is lambda-term the readline equivalent in ocaml?
<cheater> Terminal manipulation library for OCaml
<cheater> ok, so much more than that
<chengsun> it's what utop uses, yes
<chengsun> replaces readline and ncurses afaict
<cheater> lambda-term also includes the readline emu, right?
<cheater> ok
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<cheater> thank you chengsun :)
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<aantron> i wrote some pretty questionable code. i created a pipe to guess the previous file descriptor allocated before that, using %identity to convert a Unix.file_descr to an int so i can subtract 1. feel like i have to go to lambda confession now
<flux> noooooooooo
<flux> what do you need the previous fd for?
<flux> it won't work if someone closed the non-last fd anyway
<aantron> forcing Lwt_io.close to fail in testing
<aantron> yes
<aantron> but i have control over this
<flux> well in testing and war everything is permitted!
<aantron> hehe
<aantron> im most worried about cygwin, mingw, and msvc actually
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<dave24> when using sexp is there a way to show "type hi = Lol of int list" as "(Lol 2 3 4)" instead of "(Lol (2 3 4))"
<dave24> so if Lol was a lisp function i want multiple arguments for it, not one list argument
<flux> probably not. I don't recall sexplib has functionality to change the structure of output(/input)..
<dave24> ah. oh well
<flux> but you have the source.. :)
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<flux> how about just printing/parsing the sexp yourself?
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<flux> though not sure if it's that easy in general.. you can't just parse all (1 2 3 4) as (1 (2 3 4))
<flux> there's a reason why the sexp output matches the structure of the data :)
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<dave24> flux: well, it would just have to be another type: "type hi = Lol of int args"
<flux> well if it's only for Lol, then you can write a special sexpifyer for that type
<dave24> oh
<dave24> whats a sexpifyer
<flux> :-)
<flux> it's been a while since I've used it, but instead of "with sexp" or whatever just write a function sexp_of_hi : hi -> Sexplib.Sexp.t
<flux> and also the reverse if you need to read them
<dave24> ah, yeah thats all i really need.
<dave24> thanks a lot
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<flux> good luck :)
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<toolslive> in a C binding, I received an ocaml value that has type "Ctypes unit ptr". what is its memory representation ? (I want to get the raw pointer in C )
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<toolslive> (I'm glueing 2 C++ librarries together using ocaml as the pass through medium)
<toolslive> (really, don't ask me why :( )
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<edgimar> I'm trying to build the ocaml website with make, and getting a "ocamlfind: Package `netstring' not found" error -- I am new to ocaml, and am not sure how to resolve this -- I tried using opam for this, but that's apparently not the right way.
<Kakadu> edgimar: AFAIR it is in ocamlnet opam package
<Kakadu> toolslive: I think that you need to destruct this value somehow in OCaml side to get something more simple
<edgimar> oh, ok -- is there a way I can find out what packages I would need for other packages? (i.e. how would I be able to figure this out should I encounter another missing package error?
<toolslive> the simplest I can get in ocaml is the Ctype unit ptr....
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<Kakadu> do you use revised syntax, btw, toolslive ?
<Kakadu> no, forget this questions
<Kakadu> *s
<Drup> edgimar: unfortunatly, there is no real way. Fortunatly, 90% of the time, the name is the same
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<toolslive> revised syntax of what ?
<edgimar> hm, that's strange. one would think that opam would (or should) have a search command that will search for package names that are embedded in opam packages... Is this not technically possible for some reason?
<Kakadu> of camlp4/5. Forget it was stupid question
<hcarty> toolslive: I had to do this recently... there's a way to get the raw address of the pointer
<hcarty> toolslive: raw_address_of_ptr
<hcarty> Gives you a nativeint that you can pass into a manually bound 'external' function
<Kakadu> edgimar: opam package recipe is a number of instructions to compile stuff. It's hard to get possible ocamlfind's packages after in stalllation
<edgimar> btw, now that I've installed ocamlnet, my next error message is "`nettls-gnutls' not found", which is also not an opam package name.
<Kakadu> There is `opam search` which would output ocamlnet package in case all ocamlfind's pacakge will be listed in ocamlnet oopam package description
<hcarty> toolslive: If you can, though, it may be simpler to write a C stub and wrap that stub with ctypes, if possible
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<Kakadu> edgimar: ocamlnet has some optional packages in itself. So, I guess if you don't have nettls dev packages on your system opam will not compile some stuff
<edgimar> oh, so are you saying nettls is a c lib, not ocaml?
<hcarty> edgimar Kakadu: s/nettls/gnutls/ maybe, in that last comment?
<Kakadu> edgimar: run `opam show ocamlnet` and look at depopt field
<Kakadu> edgimar: yep, gnutls
<Kakadu> edgimar: nettls ocaml package requires some C lib
<toolslive> it's actually the other way around: I'm inside the C stub, being called from OCaml, and my c function is something like: do_something_in_c( value v){ .....}. The v is actually an ocaml value that comes from another C library that was exposed to ocaml via ctypes. the value IS a unit ptr
<edgimar> ok, so if I do 'opam install ocamlnet' it appears to build and complete without error, but it silently skips compilation of tls (if the C lib is missing)?
<toolslive> it's some opaque handle
<toolslive> so I can do Field(v,0) and things like that, but I need to know the structure.
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<edgimar> and, by the way, why in the world does compiling the website depend on tls anyway?
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<Kakadu> edgimar: I don't know what are you compiling
<Kakadu> toolslive: You can start from reading representation of algebraic datatypes
<edgimar> Kakadu: I'm running make after a 'git clone https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml.org.git'
<edgimar> (from inside the cloned dir)
<Kakadu> I think that you are more likely using https://github.com/ocamllabs/ocaml-ctypes/blob/master/src/ctypes/ctypes_static.mli#L50 but I'm not an expert
<hcarty> edgimar: The tls stuff may be for retrieving remote data - the README indicates that some external resources are pulled down as part of the build process
<Kakadu> edgimar: Btw, how to install dependencies was mentioned in README
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<edgimar> I see. And, yes, I skimmed over the README a bit too quickly, it seems. Somehow I assumed that running make would also include all needed tasks (e.g. make deps), but perhaps that's too much work to make it automatically install dependencies when they aren't already available?
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<apache2> Does anyone have an example of how to do utf-8 decoding using Uutf?
<apache2> Ah, I got it.
<edgimar> Kakadu: running 'make deps' did a lot, but still failed to install opamfu and ulex...
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<Kakadu> edgimar: I don't know. I never compiled ocaml.org
<Kakadu> you can show errors list, btw. Maybe it is something obvious.......
<Kakadu> edgimar: any plans to contribute to website?
<edgimar> and I may also never compile it... it's a pity that compiling it seems to be so tedious. I really wanted to compile it to have a copy offline, and of course if I did see ways to improve things, then I could modify and contribute them.
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<Kakadu> So, what is the error about ulex?
<edgimar> unfortunately I'll need to come back to this later... But the error was "camlp4orf: not found"
<Kakadu> something camlp4-related........
<Kakadu> weird
<Kakadu> It is not normal that just compiling a website brings so much pain
<edgimar> thanks for your help, anyway. until later...
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<infinity0> anyone used ocamllint: https://github.com/cryptosense/ocamllint
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<hcarty> infinity0: I haven't, but I think I will give it a try now :-)
<infinity0> heh
<hcarty> It didn't work on my first attempt with a library using ctypes - it's causing ocamldep errors
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<hcarty> Same with another pure-OCaml library
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<hcarty> Ah, it works if I pin to --dev-repo
<hcarty> And I just learned that module types can start with a lowercase letter
<hcarty> Because ocamllint complains if they don't... which seems a little odd given that (almost) every time I've seen a module type name it's been capitalized
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<hcarty> infinity0: It seems easy to use, at least in its default configuration
<infinity0> cool. has it uncovered anything unexpected in your projects?
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<hcarty> I haven't looked in much detail yet and I only tested two relatively small codebases. But it looks like a useful start!
<hcarty> I want to be able to see the messages via merlin... not sure how to do that
<hcarty> It would be nice if vim+syntastic showed the warnings while editing
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<struk|desk> hcarty: agreed that would be cool
<struk|desk> I would be more tempted to try that with neovim though
<hcarty> struk|desk: My limited experience with neovim so far has been that "it feels like vim". But I haven't tried anything special with it.
<hcarty> I was happy to see that, again in limited testing, my existing vn=im configuration just worked
<hcarty> s/vn=im/vim/
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<malc_> hcarty: one slash too many
<malc_> erm no.. my bad
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<Denommus> hi
<Denommus> I'm trying to install 4.03.0 from opam
<Denommus> but I'm getting Error: Files ocamldep.cmx and depend.cmx make inconsistent assumptions over implementation Depend
<Denommus> what can I do about that?
<struk|desk> hcarty: I couldn't get merlin + syntastic to work 100% with it yet, but when I do I'm fully switching over from vim
<rgrinberg> struk|desk: really? it works flawsessly for me
<rgrinberg> you do need a recent version of python-neovim from pip though
<struk|desk> thats probably why then
<struk|desk> thanks for tip
<rgrinberg> hcarty: try :term utop ;)
<_y> why switching vim → neovim ?
<_y> ie what are the differences
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<Denommus> does eliom/ocsigen have a specific channel?
<rgrinberg> _y: the most key thing about neovim for vim is deoplete followed by neomake
<rgrinberg> Denommus: yes #oscsigen exists but it's rather quiet
<struk|desk> _y: neovim is a rewrite of vim with a sane implementation and api for plugins/maintainence. I specifically want to use for neovim-qt, which has a nice gui wrapped on top and is actively developed
<Denommus> I was trying to install eliom with my system installation, but I'm getting - camlp4<=4.02+6 is not available because your system doesn't comply with !preinstalled & ocaml-version >= "4.02" & ocaml-version < "4.03". - js_of_ocaml<2.0 is not available because your system doesn't comply with ocaml-version <= "4.01.0".
<Denommus> should I install ocaml with opam instead?
<rgrinberg> Denommus: Yes - always.
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<Denommus> rgrinberg: oh
<struk|desk> Denommus: yeah listen to rgrinberg. good avice
<struk|desk> *advice
<Denommus> I wonder if I can have a nix workflow for eliom in general
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<Denommus> I didn't remember how awesome merlin is
<Drup> Denommus: does it matter ? you don't need ocaml installed for deployement.
<Denommus> Drup: nix is not only useful for deployment, but for isolated development environments in general
<Drup> opam does that quite well for ocaml :)
<rgrinberg> Drup: some people dislike learning a new package manager for every language :/
<Denommus> Drup: I tend to use it for Haskell, Ruby and JavaScript, because it can handler every possible dependency my project might have, including the ones the language-specific package managers can't provide, AND the version of the compiler/interpreter in use
<Denommus> *it can handle
<Drup> rgrinberg: most language package managers are terrible.
<Denommus> Drup: yes, I agree. That's why I try to use nix everywhere
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<hcarty> rgrinberg: oooooooooo
<hcarty> rgrinberg: That's pretty slick
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<rgrinberg> hcarty: yup, you actually paste code between vim buffers and utop properly
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<struk|desk> sweet rgrinberg you're full of good tips today
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<rgrinberg> struk|desk: \o/
<rgrinberg> hcarty: is ppx_deriving_yojson 4.03 ready yet?
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<Denommus> anyone using ocp-indent in Emacs?
<hcarty> rgrinberg: Ready as in it compiles and functions. Still doesn't support inline records arguments in variants
<Denommus> I'm getting "Searching for program: file or directory not found, ocp-indent" when I try to indent
<Denommus> but opam's bin is in PATH
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<rgrinberg> Denommus: do you have ocp-indent installed?
<Denommus> ah, I had to set the exec-path list
<Denommus> I thought only the PATH environment variable would do
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<Denommus> what .merlin options do I need to set for a seamless eliom experience?
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<hcarty> rgrinberg: neovim + deoplete <- Does this work with merlin? Looks quite nice
<rgrinberg> hcarty: it works but it's not as good as it can be. To make it work real well you'll have to create a merlin deoplete source (written in python)
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<Denommus> anyone got eliom-base-app installed?
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<hcarty> Does the new ctypes support for Lwt jobs provide an (at least partial) work-around for the lack of support for releasing the runtime lock when using cstubs?
<hcarty> Or is it only intended for binding blocking-but-not-CPU-costly code?
<mrvn> afaik it doesn't support releasing the lock yet
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<infinity0> i'm trying to match against Map.S.empty and it's giving me a syntax error, is there any way to do this
<infinity0> or am i forced to use is_empty instead
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<companion_cube> is_empty, sadly
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<struk|desk> hcarty: I asked that same question last week and mrvn gave me the same answer :) frustrating isn't it?
<Denommus> merlin is giving me "string -> unit" for a lot of my queries
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<hcarty> mrvn: Thanks. It looks like cstubs doesn't, but maybe there's some special magic with the lwt-jobs support? I kind of doubt it though.
<hcarty> struk|desk: Yep, sticking to foreign/libffi for now!
<hcarty> If I get a chance to test it I'll report back with how it does or does not work
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<Denommus> hi
<Denommus> I'm having trouble using macaque
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<Denommus> how do I mark that a file in a distillery project needs to be preprocessed by calmp4?