flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.03.0 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.03.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<sveit> also it seems opam doesn't install a man page for ocamlmktop by default...
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<mrvn> bytecode has access to the interpreter
<mrvn> you could compile stuff as libraries and dynamically open it in the interpreter at runtime. use extern ... to access the ocaml functions.
<Drup> sveit: I think you sould just try ocamlnat.
<Drup> it's not compiled by default, but it should work
<sveit> mrvn: can you explain what you mean?
<sveit> mrvn: rather, can you give a short example?
<mrvn> can't give an example.
<mrvn> but the I'm suggesting using the foreign function interface to connect the bytecode runtime with optimized binary code.
<Drup> yeah, or just use ocamlnat.
<mrvn> does that interactively compile to binary?
<Drup> to native, yes
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<sveit> Drup: so I still cannot load .cmx or .cmax into ocamlnat?
<Drup> ocamlnat is like the normal toplevel, but native.
<sveit> Drup: sure, so my question is since i can do "#load 'file.cma'" in normal toplevel, can I do "#load 'file.cmxa'"
<m1dnight_> Hey guys, Im trying out ocaml for the first time and Oasis is throwing errors about syntax errors.
<Algebr`> show oasis file
<m1dnight_> Sec, on it
<m1dnight_> The first error is about the spaces in the descriptoin.
<m1dnight_> I remove the spaces there and then it complains about the colon at line 18.
<Algebr`> yes, you need to indent the stuff under Library
<Algebr`> and exectuable
<Algebr`> by 2 spaces
<m1dnight_> Oh.
<Algebr`> the blog post needs to be fixed
<Algebr`> rather, the post
<m1dnight_> Aha, that makes sense.
<m1dnight_> Thanks Algebr`
<Drup> Algebr`: maybe you should just redirect to the oasis tutorial (that is also on ocaml.org)
* m1dnight_ has already found that one :D
<m1dnight_> I just wanted to get up and running fast.
<Drup> sveit: yes, it's the goal
<sveit> Drup: well I can't get it to compile :( i get an error about missing Outcometree
<sveit> also the project seems relatively old, but maybe that does not matter.
<Drup> hum, ocamlnat is included in ocaml
<Drup> you build the compiler (see INSTALL.adoc) and then "make ocamlnat"
<sveit> should "opam switch..." pull it in?
<Drup> unfortunatly, it's not build by the opam switches, not sure why
<sveit> i see. this is a very simple question, but the best way to proceed would be just to pull down the compiler from https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml and build?
<Drup> as a first approach, I guess, yes. Use the 4.03 tag, not the trunk branch
<Drup> later, it might be more convenient to make your own switch description that also builds ocamlnat (assuming it proves succesfull for what you want to do)
<sveit> great, thanks for all the help!
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<SomeDamnBody> Drup: thanks to you and mrvn. Sorry I only just now saw it
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<tormen_> Hi. When you "include" a module does this include ALL its values or only the ones defined in the signature of the included module ?
<_y> try it!
<companion_cube> only the visible values are available
<_y> or: what does your heart says?
<_y> *say
<tormen_> _y: I am trying it ;)
<tormen_> _y: My heart... hmmm my heart guesses only te signature... but then again it's an INCLUDE so ... my heart does not know what to say
* tormen_ 's heart is undecided ^^
<tormen_> ... but it'll shall seek the truth :)
<_y> always follow your heart
<malc_> The expression include module-expr in a structure re-exports in the current structure all definitions of the structure denoted by module-expr.
<tormen_> How can one "print" the module signature in a test program ?
<tormen_> ... as always one question leads to the next ;)
<Drup> "ocamlc -i foo.ml" shows the signature of Foo
<tormen_> ah okey
<tormen_> Drup: thanks! ... again :)
<_y> there is also « #show Module » in the toplevel
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<tormen_> _y : Okey so it is ALL the definitions (like malc mentioned... THANKS ! ... but I needed to see it ;))
<tormen_> ... ah moment... my example has a flaw ;) ...
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<Enjolras> what ? It is only the signature. But of course, if you do module Foo = struct ... end with the signature restricted somewhere else, it will include the whole Foo
<_y> it would be annoying if you got ghost values dangling in your module with unknown names, types and semantics
<Enjolras> but include (Foo : sig type t end) will only include t. Or module Foo : sig type t end = struct ... end and later include Foo will also only include t
<companion_cube> oh joy, modifying the stdlib requires bootstraping
<tormen_> _y: Hmm. I had defined first a module A = ... followed by a module type A .... .... ;) ... so my heart knows now that it's first intuition was the right one :)) ... as you said: one should always follow it's heart :D
<Enjolras> tormen_: module and signature namespace are distincts, just like types and values namespaces. So if you define a module type and a module with the same name, it doesn't mean the signature applies to the module
<Enjolras> in case it wasn't clear to you :=
<Enjolras> :)*
<Drup> _y: worse than that, it would completely break abstraction
<_y> y
<tormen_> Enjolras: yes... no it WAS actually already clear to SOME part of my brain... but somehow this part went AWOL for a sec ;)
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<tormen_> Thanks to *everyone* !!! You are such a great and welcoming community !!!! Awesome. Very motivating :)))
<tormen_> So: Enjolras , _y Drup and malc_ + companion_cube : Thanks :)
<Enjolras> yw
<tormen_> _y: You said "it would be annoying if you got ghost values dangling in your module with unknown names, types and semanticsit would be annoying if you got ghost values dangling in your module with unknown names, types and semantics" ... but as ocaml is typed it can induce these types, like it does for the original module, no?
<tormen_> (sorry, pasted your comment 2x ;))
<_y> tormen_, i mean, *you* as the programmer know anything about these internal values
<_y> *know nothing
<tormen_> (because for a module A which signature does not cover certain values ... ocaml will induce its types... so why not do that in the module that "include"s the module... this should not result in ghost values, no ?
<tormen_> _y: ah ok... yeah ... I am in a case where I have full source code access... but this might not be the case ...
<tormen_> and sure it makes more sense that it's only the signature (public interface) ...
<_y> precisely because they are internal, thus hidden on purpose from the user, via abstraction
<tormen_> _y: ... sorry. I am still trying to wrap my head around all the implications of a fully typed language ... :(
* tormen_ does not give up easily and is getting there ... step by step :))
<tormen_> _y: I like your name... so positive :)
<_y> abstraction being precisely what says that you are not even supposed to being able to access those values
<tormen_> ... yes, yes... makes sense ^^
<tormen_> :)
<_y> tormen_, it was not the original meaning of it, but eh, y not :-)
* _y now has a polysemic nick
* tormen_ is looking up polysemic ... which sounds like an illness ;)
<tormen_> ah multiple semantics
<tormen_> hehe
<tormen_> Can one include the signature of another module ?
<_y> y
<tormen_> k
<_y> :-)
<tormen_> :)
<tormen_> let's cut to the chase and do efficient chat communication :)
<_y> i am attached to my nose at least as much as my nose is attached to me
<_y> the syntax is again « include MODULE »
<tormen_> nose: ok sounds true
<_y> the difference with the module *value* inclusion being that it is written in a signature
<_y> and MODULE has to be the name of a module *signature*, not a module
<_y> note than you can write « include module type of Module »
<tormen_> syntax: Hmmm it tells me "Error: Unbound module type A" ... hmmm ah okey cool !
<tormen_> ... because I am not sure if there is a signature and what it is named
<tormen_> nice I got a version that compiles :) ... have to go now
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<companion_cube> https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/635 LET THE TROLL BEGIN
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<flux> sadly these aren't on-par with C++ iterators :(, are they? for example, you cannot compare them and they are always forward-only
<companion_cube> no, indeed
<flux> also what's that sneaking of 'range' to the same commit..
<companion_cube> C++ iterators are much more complicated
<companion_cube> couldn't resist :s
<companion_cube> maybe I should cut it out and add it later with missing `fold` functions
<flux> misses documentation on what happens if a > b
<companion_cube> (it makes a decreasing range, but yeah, need to comment)
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<flux> I would actally expect Invalid_argument or empty range
<flux> why put all these whitespace changes into the same commit as well.. :)
<companion_cube> but then you'd need 2 range functions
<companion_cube> oh, weird
<companion_cube> I'm suspecting the whitespace wasn't consistent in .ml and .mli, I had to copy paste a bit
<companion_cube> (to revert a change)
<flux> there are foo: -> foo : -changes, but not on all signatures
<flux> neater if they were a separate commit though..
<companion_cube> it wasn't intentional :/
<Drup> companion_cube: Array.to_gen is there twice
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<Drup> bleh, nevermind, can't read
<companion_cube> :D
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<companion_cube> I'm worried, if people start bikeshedding so much here, the PR is going to be a rampage
<companion_cube> Drup: I'm counting on support from you
<Drup> companion_cube: for the purpose of the stdlib, I don't think you should declare your gen type everywhere
<companion_cube> well, I don't have a better solution (yet?)
<companion_cube> CamlInternalGen ?
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<companion_cube> with just a type def in it?
<Drup> or just Gen :D
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<companion_cube> huuu
<companion_cube> that would kind of break userspace :]
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<gasche> companion_cube: it's hard to follow your benchmark results because the benchmark code does not have pointers to where the various modules are implemented
<gasche> could you add them?
<_y> companion_cube, in Buffer.of_list, why allocating a buffer with an initial size of 32 instead of getting the size from List.length?
<_y> (same goes for Hashtbl.of_list)
<Drup> gasche: most of it is in `bench.ml` in the same repository
<gasche> yep, "most"
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<gasche> Gen, Sequence, Core.Sequence don't
<Drup> hum, right
<_y> also, why add the new functions of Hashtbl inside a new separate signature FULL?
<Drup> yeah, I don't really understand that part of the patch
<gasche> maybe to avoid breaking code that advertizes that it meets the Hashtbl.S signature?
<gasche> _y: you should ask on the patch, though, that's the point of reviews
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<rrika> Hello, I'm ocaml beginner and want to use "string_before"
<mrvn> Error: Unbound value string_before
<rrika> I guess I'll have to use "Str." before but that doesn't work either.
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<Kakadu> -package str
<mrvn> #require "str";; in the toplevel
<rrika> I get "Unknown directive `package'."
<Kakadu> #use "topfind";;
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<companion_cube> gasche: hmmm, I'll edit the readme
<gasche> I'm not sure if people would think of looking in the README; maybe add a pointer to it in the bench.ml part defining the benchmarks
<gasche> (that's the natural place to look for what the various implementations are)
<rrika> oh, "-package str" is what I pass to the compiler?
<rrika> no that doesn't work either
<gasche> it depends on how you build your program
<gasche> if you're using ocamlfind, "-package str" should work
<rrika> well, I have a .ml file that I want to load and use from the repl
<rrika> and that .ml file needs to slice a few strings
<gasche> what repl are you using? if it is "ocaml", you need #use "topfind";; then #use "str";;
<gasche> (#load "str.cma";; would also work, I think, but it's more low-level and doesn't scale to other libraries)
<gasche> if you are using "utop", which you should because it's better than "ocaml", then #require "str";; should work directly
<rrika> I thought I need to compile the ml file before being able to load it from the repl
<gasche> you can do just #use "foo.ml";;
<gasche> if you compile, then for example "ocamlfind ocamlc -package str foo.ml" should work
<companion_cube> gasche: done
<gasche> thanks
<gasche> rrika: which learning document are you using, out of curiosity? (I don't know what tools it recommends)
<companion_cube> _y: maybe so, I could read the length indeed
<rrika> gasche, none actually
<gasche> interesting
<rrika> I just know that there's let, let rec, matchwith
<rrika> and I know a bit about other functional languages
<rrika> "File foobar.ml is not a bytecode object file."
<gasche> ( companion_cube : I think reading the length may actually improve performances; and it avoids resizing allocations )
<gasche> #use, not #load, for source files
<rrika> my fault I used require instead of use
<companion_cube> possible, indeed
<companion_cube> I don't like to traverse twice, but in this case...
<gasche> traversing twice is bad when it's slow or changes the semantics
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<gasche> rrika: I warmly recommend trying "utop"
<rrika> cool that works
<gasche> it will make your toplevel experience much smoother
<rrika> will look into it
<Drup> companion_cube: well, measure for big and small list, and we will see :)
<companion_cube> yayyyyy
<companion_cube> so much instrumentation to do
<Drup> hum ? Not really
<companion_cube> setup a script, compile, try it, recompile, blabla
<Drup> copy the implementation of hashtbl in an external file, add both version, do one benchmark
<Drup> :D
<companion_cube> of_list can be done from another lib
<companion_cube> ;)
<Drup> oh right, easy then !
<Drup> no need to play with the stdlib
<companion_cube> yeha, you can do it! :P
<companion_cube> also, I'm not sure about whether hashtbl.of_list should use add or replace
<companion_cube> :/
<Drup> I would tend to say "have only the add version"
<Drup> if people want replace, they can do it themselves, most of the time you want add ...
<Drup> (or you don't care)
<companion_cube> I'm not sure, most of the time I want replace
<companion_cube> add is really a niche feature imho
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<Drup> add is faster, the compromise is that it takes more space.
<companion_cube> and it has a weird semantics w.r.t remove
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<Drup> (I wouldn't mind having "replace_with_fun : ('a, 'b) t -> 'a -> ('b -> 'b)"
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<companion_cube> yeah, even `update`
<companion_cube> the one from batteries is nice, iirc
<companion_cube> I also use `get_or : ('a,'b) t -> 'a -> default:'b -> 'b`
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<octachron> gasche, just musing, but why stop at type-directed indexing operator? Type-directed arithmetic operators might be even nicer.
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<companion_cube> gasche: fixed the traversal ordering, indeed
<companion_cube> this code is new, becaues I couldn't write it in containers
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