adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | Current MOOC: https://huit.re/ocamlmooc | OCaml 4.04.0 release notes: http://ocaml.org/releases/4.04.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<Onemorenickname> sometimes, I wish we could build terms and types dynamically
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<flux> dynamically?! we don't look well on that kind of folk around here!
<Onemorenickname> haha :D
<Onemorenickname> you shall never stop compiling
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<octachron> Onemorenickname, and with MetaOcaml you can compile even more, and build terms at earlier compilation stage
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<Onemorenickname> oooh, I read "MetaOcaml" in several webpages about Metaprogramming
<Onemorenickname> I guess I should get into it
<Onemorenickname> maybe this will be my hapiness
<Onemorenickname> "cs.rice", "Type-safe program generation.", "Multi-Stage programming", sounds god sofar
<Onemorenickname> good*
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<Drup> Onemorenickname: that's the old webpage
<Drup> look for Oleg's one
<Onemorenickname> Oleg Kiselyov ?
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<Drup> yes
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<rgrinberg> Drup: will you migrate stuff to ocaml-migrate-parsetree?
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<Drup> next time I have a reason to
<Drup> (not sure I need to do anything for 4.05)
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<n4323> nibelung
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<cheater> n4323: ?
<n4323> sorry, wrong terminal!
<companion_cube> o/ people
<n4323> out of curiosity: what is the etiquette when one sends a nonsense comment by accident?
<companion_cube> nothing particular, I guess :p
<companion_cube> if you paste your password, you should change it fast
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<rgrinberg> Drup if you want your ppx to work with jbuilder that would be helpful :)
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<Drup> why ?
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<tobast> Hi
<tobast> Is there anything weird with Set.S.compare?
<tobast> I try to compare two sets of Signature.t (a custom-made type, but under the hood it is a plain integer)
<tobast> I get this output ^
<tobast> this is the content of the two sets, which are clearly equal
<tobast> Yet OCaml tells me the sets are different.
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<cokanut> tobast: i might not be able to help (beginner), but i'm curious to see the Set comparison code if you don't mind sharing it.
<tobast> cokanut: basic call to (=)
<tobast> that *should* call SigSet.equals, right?
<tobast> …
<tobast> wait.
<cokanut> tobast: https://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/manual-ocaml/libref/Set.S.html -- val equal : t -> t -> bool
<cokanut> equal s1 s2 tests whether the sets s1 and s2 are equal, that is, contain equal elements.
<tobast> cokanut: I though Pervasives.compare would call that under the hood. But that’s actually stupid, when I think about it.
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<tobast> Set.S.equal seem to work.
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<octachron> Pervasives.(compare/equal) works by looking at the internal memory representation of values (with some care to try to do the right thing when possible)
<octachron> unfortunately, for sets this yields a finer equality that the canonical equality for sets ( i.e s1 = s2 ⟺ (x ∈ s1 ⟺ x ∈ s2) )
<tobast> This is actually really cumbersome
<tobast> I have to cook up an equality function for pairs of sets of sets of ints
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<companion_cube> usually it's doable with combinators
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<rgrinberg> Drup: jbuilder will not support -ppx. It will only support migrate tree's ppx runner
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<Drup> What does that even mean ? Are you saying it doesn't support ocamlfind package ? That's pretty much bullshit
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<Drup> Well, there goes the idea of using jbuilder for anything else than jst's own packages
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<Drup> (seriously, I understand avoiding that for their own packaging, but not even supporting it in general ? That's nonsense)
<rgrinberg> Hmm, but I thought that using migrate parsetree was recommended for everyone to write portable ppx's
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<Drup> And how do you do anything of interest if I only distributed the binary of my ppx (the fact that I use migrate internally is irrelevant at this point, it's already compiled in)
<Drup> This basically means that you can't add a simple dependency towards ocamlfind package foo.bar that happens to have a ppx.
<Drup> You need to live yet once again in jst's closed world assumption, where you define your own frontend driver
<companion_cube> what was the point of jbuilder anyway?
<companion_cube> you need another build system for development anyway
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<rgrinberg> I like having proper multiple opam sub packages + using alises instead of packs. Really helps for projecs like cohttp
<Drup> that's completely off topic, though
<rgrinberg> Yeah, I'm answering companion_cube
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<rgrinberg> Drup: do you mind voicing a complaint about this in that issue?
<rgrinberg> I think adding the traditional way of wrunning ppx should be trivial. Since it's basically outsourcing all the work to findlib anyway
<Drup> then why is it not already here ?
<Drup> if it's a restriction just for the sake of it, that's not a good sign for how jbuilder is designed
<octachron> companion_cube, afaik the main point of jbuilder is (was?) to simplify the splitting of janestreet monolithic code base into smaller open source packages
<companion_cube> I mean the point for people outside JST, yeah
<companion_cube> (I'm sure they don't write software they don't need)
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<Drup> rgrinberg: Anyway, I think I made my reasoning clear. I don't really have the will nor the interest to fight/discuss the design of yetanotherbuildtool ;)
<rgrinberg> doing these deductions about intent isn't very productive. Drup if there's a good use case for it then I'm optimistic that diml can be convinced.
<Drup> What about "being able to handle ocamlfind ppx packages that are currently in production" ? ;)
<rgrinberg> there are plenty of things that jbuilder supports that are useless for jst by the way.
<companion_cube> really?
<companion_cube> (things that are not useful only for them, sure)
<rgrinberg> Sure, windows support is 1 example
<companion_cube> ah, I see, interesting
<Drup> huh, they want windows support, core_kernel is supposed to work on windows
<companion_cube> but they don't use the windows support for themselves, is t hat right?
<companion_cube> core_kernel is so 2015, base is the new core_kernel!
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<rgrinberg> I'm not the one to ask about whether they use windows internally, but it doesn't seem likely. In any case, there's plenty of other evidence. For example a stable versioning scheme for the jbuild format
<companion_cube> well they want their libs to be popular, I guess
<companion_cube> and for that they need to play nicely with the community
<rgrinberg> I don't see how using jbuilder is relevant to using core, async, etc.
<companion_cube> to base, isn't it?
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<rgrinberg> I don't see what's the relation to base. But I don't know much (or care) about base anyway
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<Drup> rgrinberg: regardless, you are the one who wanted to use jsoo.ppx inside a package built by jbuilder, you already need this stuff :)
<rgrinberg> i should be the one saying regardless, i don't know why this base stuff was even brought up :P
<rgrinberg> Anyway, let me try a workaround. The situation isn't as bleak as you think ;)
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<cokanut> Any advice on structuring an n-ary tree? Usual examples for beginners are all about binary trees, but I need children to be a list of nodes, and each node needs metadata. I think I need to use a polymorphic type, but can't nail the syntax. This is what I have in mind: tree = Leaf {node: metadata} | Non-Leaf {node: metadata, children: tree}
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<companion_cube> rgrinberg: I thought jbuilder was designed to build preprocessed pacakges where ppx were removed, etc. which is exactly the case of base
<Drup> cokanut: you're missing the "of" keyword
<Drup> type tree = Leaf of {node: metadata} | Non-Leaf of {node: metadata, children: tree}
<Drup> also, it's ';', not ','
<cokanut> Wow. That's all? (commas are a relic of old languages, sorry)
<rgrinberg> Drup: setting the preprocessor this way works: (preprocess (action (system "ocamlfind ppx_tools/rewriter `ocamlfind query lib`/ppx")))
<Drup> that's remarquably unportable
<Drup> (but .. you can't pass arbitrary options to ocamlfind/ocamlc ?
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<rgrinberg> companion_cube: I haven't seen any jbuilder features that facilitate that. if you want my uninformed guess why they made is jbuilder, I'd say that jst wants to publish their packages with module aliases and use the same build metadata internally and externally (jbuilder vs. jenga)
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<companion_cube> oh, jbuilder supports incremental compilation now
<companion_cube> so it is a real build system after all
<Drup> oh ?
<companion_cube> rgrinberg: you know if jbuilder deals with packs properly?
<rightfold> I'm excited, writing another type checker in OCaml
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<rgrinberg> oh yeah, it got that recently. I haven't tried it out all though
<rgrinberg> It doesn't deal with packs. It only uses aliases. But AFAIK those are strictly superior to packs. Unless you need to support really old version of OCaml
<companion_cube> no they're not :/
<rgrinberg> And yes it deals with aliases properly.
<companion_cube> you have to prefix everything with Foo_ in your own code
<rgrinberg> no you don't ;) jbuilder will do it for your module names
<rgrinberg> and then insert the appropriate -open everywhere
<companion_cube> that's the kind of magic I really dislike
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<companion_cube> makes it hard to move to another build system, for instance
<companion_cube> :/
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<rgrinberg> better than magic that's just broken. (the discussion we had about ocamlbuild seems relevant)
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<companion_cube> hum
<rgrinberg> I think anton's namespaces plugin for ocamlbuild does the same thing though
<Drup> yeah, that doesn't shock me. namespace is pretty much that
<companion_cube> never heard of this
<companion_cube> so, is jbuilder replacing jenga or what? I'm confused now
<companion_cube> (if it's properly supported, otherwise, it now seems pretty fine as a build system, at least judging from the examples in quick-start)
<rgrinberg> no. jbuilder 2 things: an sexp based format for defining ocaml projects, and a very simple and portable build system for executing them
<rgrinberg> but the build rules are portable enough to be used by more than 1 build system
<rgrinberg> jbuilder *is* 2 things
<octachron> Does jbuilder handle nested namespaces? If my memories is right, a good part of the complexity of anton's namespaces comes from nested namespace support
<rgrinberg> jenga is that other build system that will be used to run jbuilder rules for more perf./server mode in dev. But I don't see why you can't use your favorite build system to do the same.
<flux> ocaml is also two things: a great tool for building programming languages, and a great tool for building build systems ;)
<rightfold> Compiler construction 😍
<Drup> s/great/terrible/
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<flux> let's settle for "a tool" ;-)
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<rgrinberg> octachron: I don't know the answer to that yet. Never even knew namespaces supported nesting
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<companion_cube> ok, interesting way of seeing things
<companion_cube> a ± standard format for writing build plans is already far better than what we currently have
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<gasche> if you are a student and not too far from Europe, you should consider attending the Programming Language Implementation Summer School in Italy: https://pliss2017.github.io/
<companion_cube> and if you are interested in PL implementation ;)
<companion_cube> o/ gasche
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<dmj`> Is this a good channel to ask questions about MirageOS
<fds> There is a #mirage :-)
<fds> But I doubt anyone would really mind if you asked here.
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<dmj`> fds: ok cool :)
<dmj`> Has anyone run unikernels produced from mirage on AWS’s xen hypervisor directly? I’m not referring to running it on a hypervisor in a hypervisor, (putting xen on an ec2 instance), but putting it on the same hypervisor that other Ec2 instances use.
<dmj`> hope that makes sense
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<dmj`> fds: *crickets*
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<fds> Sorry, I don't actually know anything. :-D
<fds> But, it's evening here, so you might not get any response in #mirage either.
<fds> Sometimes IRC is slow. :-)
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<dmj`> yes, understandable :)
<dmj`> think the mirage docs have helped me though
<dmj`> this looks like what I wanted
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<_y> why oooh whyyy are all mainstream computer algebra systems dynamically typed
<_y> and with an awful scoping policy
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<companion_cube> because maths is hard to type, I think
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<tautologico> Axiom is typed... not really mainstream though
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<tautologico> I think that's because language design for CAS is pretty ad hoc, as is the case for statistical/engineering/scientific languages
<tautologico> see R/Matlab/etc
<companion_cube> also many of them are pretty old
<tautologico> languages created by people that don't know all that much about programming languages, but have problems to solve
<tautologico> it's surprising there's so little competition in this area of scientific programming... Julia is one of the few who tried to enter this space recently
<tautologico> Fortress also failed
<_y> tautologico, exactly, i tried Axiom once, it being so proud of being typed confirmed my opinion that usual CA software are not :-°
<_y> companion_cube, Sage is 10 years old
<_y> that’s because of that pycrazyness
<tautologico> _y: yes, most of them are not. Also Sage does not have a specific language, it adopts Maxima, which is much older
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<tautologico> but there is SymPy, more recent but still untyped (it's python after all)
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<companion_cube> _y: yeah well, sage had bad initial choices
<Drup> _y: you don't like scilab lexing-directed interpreter ? :D
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<tautologico> why does Jane Street like sexps so much? were they lispers before?
<companion_cube> because it's simple and readable, I guess
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<rightfold> It maps well to ADTs
<rightfold> Mapping ADTs to e.g. JSON or XML is rather awkward
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<def`> JSON is just missing the notion of value constructors, for which a plain name with ( ) could do :).
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<rightfold> JSON arrays scream "homogenous". The OCD.
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