adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | Current MOOC: https://huit.re/ocamlmooc | OCaml 4.04.0 release notes: http://ocaml.org/releases/4.04.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<bmintz> hi there i'm new to ocaml
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<bmintz> i was a python user but love functional compiled languages, so hopefully i can join the fun. if i do
<bmintz> `let x = 42`, my understanding was that x is immutable. so how come i can do `let x = x + 1` afterwards?
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<tautologico> bmintz: you're not mutating x, you're creating a new variable named x that shadows the previous one
<bmintz> ah
<bmintz> what do you mean by shadow
<tautologico> it hides the previous variable
<tautologico> like a variable local to a function shadows a global/toplevel variable
<bmintz> so what do you mean by hide
<bmintz> ohhh
<bmintz> where is the old x? is it deleted in memory?
<tautologico> if the GC determines it is not used anymore, its memory will be freed
<bmintz> so it would be deleted in this case right?
<tautologico> yes
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<bmintz> so then, if x is really big in RAM, which is faster: `let x = ref <big thing that supports +>` `x := !x + y` or `let x = <big thing>` `let x = x + y`
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<bmintz> ignore my first clause lol
<tautologico> it's hard to tell,
<bmintz> why is that
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<tautologico> depends on x and other details
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<bmintz> oh
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<bmintz> so i tried https://hastebin.com/yuxumesazo.ocaml but utop says there's a syntax error at `n > 1`. how is it wrong?
<bmintz> also thanks for all your help tautologico
<bmintz> oh never mind
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<Onemorenickname> Hello people
<Onemorenickname> I was wondering if there was an "Include with" for module type signatures
<Onemorenickname> for instance, in my type signature, there is a type t, and I want to include an other module with type t = t
<Onemorenickname> When I use "with type t = t", I get "several definition of the same type"
<mrvn> try type temp = t and with type t = temp
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<octachron> Onemorenickname, destructive substitution should work for this use case, e.g.: "sig type t include (sig type t val x:t end with type t := t) end"
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<Drup> octachron: I like damien's answer 22 days after your message explaining how the OCaml syntax is full of cruft
<Onemorenickname> octachron and mrvn, actually, my code's structure was bad
<Onemorenickname> But I keep those in my head, thanks :)
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<octachron> Drup, but for once OCaml shares the same cruft as the C language family: the use of "<" and ">" as both brackets and operators as a consequence of ascii tyranny
<def`> :D
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<P4Titan> Hi all.
<P4Titan> The following seems to evaluate at program start up and retain its value all throughout execution, even if the reference changes
<P4Titan> let item_exists = flip BatMap.mem !items_map
<flux> octachron, the rule is plain and simple: syntax uses ; as a separator --> C
<P4Titan> even though `item_exists` is a function, not a constant
<companion_cube> P4Titan: indeed, it is evaluated once
<companion_cube> you should probably write `let item_exists x = BatMap.mem x !items_map`
<P4Titan> that's what I ended up doing
<P4Titan> but why?
<P4Titan> `item_exists` is a function?
<P4Titan> I understand for constants
<companion_cube> because of side effects, `f` and `fun x-> f x` are not always the same
<companion_cube> and !foo is a side effect :-)
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<Onemorenickname> Hi people
<P4Titan> so a general rule is that let <something> = ... evals once at start up and never again
<P4Titan> even if it is a function, etc.
<Onemorenickname> I don't understand the error I get on the 12's line of https://ghostbin.com/paste/966gb
<Onemorenickname> I don't even see what's wrong
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<octachron> Onemorenickname, you are lacking the type equality Complex.b = Simple.a
<Onemorenickname> octachron, what does the line " module Elt : SIMPLE_TYPE with type a = b;;" ?
<Onemorenickname> I thought that's how you specified such equality
<P4Titan> yes
<P4Titan> but that only holds for within `COMPLEX_TYPE`
<Onemorenickname> it is not exported ?
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<P4Titan> here's what I imagine
<Onemorenickname> "Elt = Simple" does not imply "type a = b" ?
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<Onemorenickname> Furthermore, when I add "and type b = Simple.a" in line 12, I still get the same error
<P4Titan> take module A : sig type a end = struct type a = int end
<P4Titan> and module B : sig type a end = struct type a = char end
<P4Titan> both A and B would be of SIMPLE_TYPE
<theblatte> P4Titan: yes, all values are evaluated when the module is loaded and functions are values. OTOH in let foo x = ..., foo is waiting for an argument to evaluate the body.
<P4Titan> theblatte: yes, ty
<theblatte> hmm, not the clearest explanation, I lack terminology for "values" :)
<P4Titan> Onemorenickname: you see what I mean
<Onemorenickname> P4Titan, so far, yes
<P4Titan> SIMPLE_TYPE implies a module that only has an abstract type. That doesn't mean that all modules that have said type sig will have the same `type a` underneath
<Onemorenickname> Indeed
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<octachron> Onemorenickname, the order matters: "module Complex : COMPLEX_TYPE with type b = Simple.a and module Elt = Simple"
<P4Titan> and you have nothing binding the type in `module Comple : COMPLEX_TYPE` to `module Simple : SIMPLE_TYPE`
<P4Titan> ^^^ that binds the types
<P4Titan> explicitly
<sspi> I'm trying to build a toplevel with js_of_ocaml, however I'm getting a error when JsooTop.initialize() is ran. I can't completely see the error due to the object structure, but it seems like an issue with Pervasives. Has anyone ran into this?
<Onemorenickname> Oh, there is no inference.
<Onemorenickname> At all.
<Onemorenickname> Only checking when it is compiled
<Onemorenickname> octachron, yep : the error told me that when I did "module Elt = simple", there was some shit going on, as "type b" was not yet equal to "Simple.a"
<P4Titan> you have to be fairly explicity in OCaml when you're working w/ types
<P4Titan> in my expirience
<Onemorenickname> (A promise of ocaml is that with type inference, you don't have to write types)
<Onemorenickname> (I've never been so wrong.)
<P4Titan> but this is not really inference, more so, type conflation
<P4Titan> Where Simple could have any type and Complex any other type
<octachron> Onemorenickname, not at the module level… The problem is that inference becomes undecidable relatively fast when the complexity of type system increases
<P4Titan> and you want OCaml to bring them together
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<Onemorenickname> P4Titan, nope, because inside "Complex", there is the equality
<Drup> Onemorenickname: a promise of OCaml is to infer as much stuff as possible
<Onemorenickname> It is redundant
<Drup> that's a bit different than "everything" ;)
<Onemorenickname> Drup, when I've been taught Ocaml, I was told that it could infer everything but GADT
<P4Titan> Onemorenickname: but inside `Complex`, the type a there doesn't have to be the same as the type a of the `Simple`
<Drup> Onemorenickname: for the *expression language*, this is true
<Drup> The module language .. that's another piece of work
<Onemorenickname> I'm seeing so
<Onemorenickname> P4Titan, that's what says " module Elt : SIMPLE_TYPE with type a = b;;"
<P4Titan> I could be mistaken, so please correct me anyone if neccessary
<P4Titan> BUT
<P4Titan> in `type a = b`, the type `a` doesn't neccesarily have to be the same as the type `a` that `module Simple : SIMPLE_TYPE` brings forth
<Onemorenickname> P4Titan, that's what it means though
<Onemorenickname> It's not a type declaration
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<P4Titan> doesn't the `with module Elt = Simple` basically override the `with type a = b`
<P4Titan> u are saying "use this version of Elt"
<P4Titan> in FINAL_TYPE
<P4Titan> its something like that
<P4Titan> I don't think it takes the "use this version of Elt" and that applied "type a = b" to that
<P4Titan> it just assumes that the version of Elt you provide obeys said relationship
<Drup> it doesn't "assumes"
<Drup> it checks.
<P4Titan> ya, checks the assumption
<P4Titan> :D
<Drup> you can't shadow earlier type constraints that way, all of them hold. While the order does matter, it's only in order to keep the system consistent, not for "overriding"
<P4Titan> ic
<P4Titan> the effect is similar, I just didn't use the most correct diction
<P4Titan> terminology*
<P4Titan> yes
<Onemorenickname> I'm getting an error at a higher level
<Onemorenickname> I'm sure that if I master the module stuff, I'll be able to become an Ocaml-Meister
<octachron> Onemorenickname, as a general rule signature constraint erases information: you should look at the type inferred for the functors Siders, Complexers without the signature constraint
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<Drup> Onemorenickname: http://paste.debian.net/924963
<Drup> your functors need to export more equalities
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<Onemorenickname> Drup, that's what I'm seeing
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<Onemorenickname> But I don't understand why functors need to export equalities
<Onemorenickname> I'm basically meditating until I reach enlightment right now
<Drup> well, otherwise, you don't know that Sider(Foo).Complex is equals to Foo
<Onemorenickname> Well, isn't that what's written in the functor ?
<Drup> yes, it's written *in* the functor
<Onemorenickname> Quite literaly
<Drup> but not in the type signature you slapped on it :p
<Onemorenickname> OH.
<Onemorenickname> I just remembered : I try to make functorish signatures, and then applying to signatures to module signatures and it did not work
<Onemorenickname> And I was like "if I can't do that, how can I specify that ?"
<Onemorenickname> Well. That's how you do it.
<Onemorenickname> Thanks :D
<Drup> I believe you are now enlightened :p
<Onemorenickname> Thanks Brudha
<Onemorenickname> (It's fun, because it's a mix of "Drup" and "Buddha", and sounds like ghetto "Brother")
<Onemorenickname> I now have a consistent representation of the functors type system, omg
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<gtristan> Okaaay, so; I'm trying to put together an ocaml + ocaml findlib build, because something else I'm building requires it
<gtristan> So far so good, although I'm not sure I have the correct sources
<gtristan> Now, when building guestfish "supermin" thingie which requires it, it passes configure and then chokes on invocations such as: ocamlfind ocamlc -warn-error CDEFLMPSUVXYZ-3 -package unix,str -c supermin_utils.mli -o supermin_utils.cmi
<gtristan> Saying: ocamlc: unknown option '-package'
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<gtristan> Is -package a thing which appeared at some point, or was removed at some point ?
<Onemorenickname> Drup and octachron : Thank you ! IT WORKS.
<Onemorenickname> (An "export" syntax would be nice though. To export value, types, constraints etc.)
<Onemorenickname> (Without re-typing them)
<gtristan> Is this gitlab at all relevant: https://gitlab.camlcity.org/gerd/lib-findlib ?
<gtristan> or am I grabbing it in the wrong place ?
<Drup> gtristan: iirc, it's the right thing
<Drup> -package comes from ocamlfind
<gtristan> hmmm, so the above incantation would be wrong ?
<gtristan> it would have to have -package before ocamlc ?
<Drup> no, it's fine, it calls ocamlfind
<Drup> the order does not matter
<Drup> (well, it does, but you can mix ocamlfind options and ocamlc options)
<gtristan> Ok, strange, I'm in a build shell with all this staged, if I move -package unix,str before ocamlc in that line, then I dont get that error anymore, and a dump of symbols is printed to console
<gtristan> unix_socket
<gtristan> unix_connect
<gtristan> unix_bind
<gtristan> unix_socketpair
<gtristan> ...
<gtristan> like that
* gtristan is certain that he built it wrong, somehow
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<gtristan> ocaml is built with: ./configure --prefix /usr && make world.opt && make DESTDIR=/path/to/destdir install
<gtristan> ocaml-findlib with: ./configure -bindir /usr/bin && make all && make prefix=/path/to/destdir install
<gtristan> maybe some cache updating command I need to run after staging ? some ocaml equivalent of ldconfig ?
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* gtristan might have a very old ocaml with brand spanking new ocaml-findlib
<gtristan> this is the correct ocaml https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml ?
<companion_cube> yes it is
<gtristan> sorry for my, possible insensitivity, I have no clue even really what ocaml is, only that I want to build guestfish :)
<companion_cube> oh,, well, good luck :D
<companion_cube> (it's actually a nice programming language)
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<gtristan> :)
* gtristan tries 4.05 branch of ocaml with findlib-1.7.1
<Drup> gtristan: you might want to run on *released* versions.
<companion_cube> :D
<companion_cube> yeah, try 4.04.0
<gtristan> oh, 4.05 is not ?
<gtristan> ok
<gtristan> that actually failed to build
<gtristan> parallel make works right ?
<Drup> use the tarballs.
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<octachron> +
<companion_cube> https://ocaml.org/releases/ gtristan
<Drup> (or use your package manager, really. Ocaml and findlib are in most distributions)
<gtristan> Drup, tarballs are a no go, at least I'm trying to avoid them except for circular deps (i.e. need perl for automake and vise versa)
<gtristan> and package manager also a no go :)
<Drup> I don't understand, but ok
<gtristan> The whole point here is to build everything, from cross-bootstrap to desktop env, entirely deterministically and from git sources; separating build from deployment
<gtristan> I know, context is missing :)
<gtristan> The reason I want guestfish is to help in deploying filesystem images, without mounting them loopback (which requires root)
<Drup> then yeah, use the last stable tag
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<Drup> (not branch, tag.)
* gtristan thinks he may have went overkill with guestfish, but it may cover some cases for installing bootloaders where it wont work easily with say, mke2fs -d /path/to/sysroot
<toolslive> I tried to do that too, everything from source, in docker containers, with everything pinned to commit hashes. Even that does not produce reproducible builds.
<gtristan> toolslive, reproducible builds are another thing, cannot afaics be done _only_ with build tooling
<gtristan> but build tooling will indeed help
* gtristan tried building without urandom the other day and failed in some python builds
<toolslive> or, the distro suddenly has an upgrade for a package, that somehow trips you over.
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<gtristan> toolslive, I dont allow host tools as a rule actually
<gtristan> so this should really not change things
<toolslive> no host tools ? how do you get to a C compiler then ?
<gtristan> even the bootstrap, or cross-bootstrap, needs to have some deterministic base
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<gtristan> think of it this way: If you can have it installed on hardware, you can also have an sdk to "chroot" (or bubblewrap) into
<gtristan> things have been circular forever, we just dont allow host tools
<gtristan> (gcc I think even needed a C compiler since it's first incarnation)
<gtristan> Anyway, got further ! Now I have: Fatal error: the file '/usr/bin/ocamldep' is not a bytecode executable file
<gtristan> Oh, and this is while building supermin !
* gtristan checks
<gtristan> /usr/bin/ocamlopt is symlink to -> ocamlopt.opt, which is a 7.2MB executable file
<gtristan> Oh, seems I get that same error on multiple /usr/bin/ocaml* files
<gtristan> Any idea what can be causing that ?
<gtristan> I.e. this produces it in a shell: ocamlfind ocamlopt -warn-error CDEFLMPSUVXYZ-3 -package unix,str -c supermin_pacman.ml -o supermin_pacman.cmx
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<octachron> gtristan, it sounds like ocamlfind is attempting to use ocamlopt as a bytecode version, you should try ocamlfind "ocamlopt -only-show …"
<gtristan> ummm
<gtristan> Fatal error: cannot find file 'ocamlopt -only-show -warn-error CDEFLMPSUVXYZ-3 -package unix,str -c supermin_pacman.ml -o supermin_pacman.cmx'
<gtristan> How would I try that ?
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<gtristan> that is the response I get, with: ocamlfind "ocamlopt -only-show -warn-error CDEFLMPSUVXYZ-3 -package unix,str -c supermin_pacman.ml -o supermin_pacman.cmx"
<gtristan> ultimately, I should either be fixing my ocamlfind build to _not_ ask for a "bytecode version", or, I should fix the ocaml build itself to install the bytecode versions, right ?
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<mrvn> gtristan: gcc needs a c++ compiler now
<gtristan> mrvn, annoying yes
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<gtristan> eh... 1am is time to forcefully stop yourself from hacking, I'll try again tomorrow
<octachron> gtristan, sorry I meant "ocamlfind ocamlopt -only-show … " which should normally yields "ocamlopt.opt …" and the same thing for ocamldep
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<gtristan> octachron, yields: Fatal error: the file '/usr/bin/ocamlopt' is not a bytecode executable file
<gtristan> octachron, that is, with the whole command, or with only `ocamlfind ocamlopt -only-show` as well
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