<beneroth>
aw-, about data... I agree with your POV
<Regenaxer>
Looks quite fatal
<mtsd>
Yes, indeed
<mtsd>
Time to leave?
<Regenaxer>
Perhaps, though no hurry now as the damage is done
<mtsd>
T
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I have two main points which make me leave 1) idealistic principles 2) they might change the server software at any point.
<beneroth>
I like to have private message talks with a somewhat reasonable expectation of privacy
<Regenaxer>
I agree with both
<Regenaxer>
(1) and (2) I mean
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
I also don't want someone monitoring my connection timings for anything else than technical reasons (I agree with technical reasons, such data is useful to warn from attacks or to fend of bots)
<beneroth>
and this is not just some financial company taking over, but guys who already proven to be not trustworthy in their business endeavors. I'm all for rehabilitation etc., but I don't see this being an aspect here.
<aw->
beneroth: anyone can analyze _whitelogger logs and see your connection timings
<aw->
any bot sitting in this channel now can do that
<beneroth>
T (for this channel)
<Regenaxer>
aw-, but not so easily as getting it direvtly in a big packet
<aw->
such as orivej or v88m or libertas or inara or jibanes or emacsomancer .. the ones who never talk and secretly log everything ;)
<beneroth>
just an additional reason to have a new channel :P
<beneroth>
they haven't talked once in many years. all spies from the Fortran community, I'm sure!!11
<Regenaxer>
:)
<aw->
beneroth: hahaha
<razzy>
irc communication is not encrypted and therefore somewhat public, anyway, yes?
<Regenaxer>
Even if encrypted it is public
<razzy>
why is it big deal if anyone sell very public data?
<Regenaxer>
Companies and government getting control and power over you
<razzy>
data mining is easier. Any other point?
<Regenaxer>
manipulations
<Regenaxer>
no, mining is differeny
<Regenaxer>
The point is to get *all* data, interconnected
<Regenaxer>
You can manipulate the public in any way
<Regenaxer>
Look at China!
<Regenaxer>
Having isolated pieces of data here and there is worthless
<razzy>
manipulations are good point.
<aw->
for once I agree with razzy here
<aw->
because the data is _already_ public by choice, by our choice.
<Regenaxer>
Nope, not to that degree
<Regenaxer>
ok, yes, if you gave your data to Zuckerberg and Google
<aw->
the new freenode operators don't have more access to the data than anyone sitting in the chats logging our actions
<aw->
anyways i agree with everyone here, all arguments presented are valid
<aw->
that's why i'm also sitting in libera.chat now ;)
<Regenaxer>
T
<Regenaxer>
The point is more to make a political statement
<razzy>
all I can see now is fragmentation of freenode and decrease power of community.
<aw->
so there's more to this than what we see on the surface
<aw->
also I still have a Gmail account, which I think is much more invasive from a corporation than my IRC data
<aw->
so, from a political point of view, perhaps I have more work to do to really make a different ;)
<aw->
difference*
<Regenaxer>
Sadly we have not much of a chance
<Regenaxer>
I was hoping for Matrix, but it seems still so buggy
<Regenaxer>
Cause Signal is a centralized system too
<Regenaxer>
(I'm more concerned about messengers atm, discussions here in family about leaving WhatsApp)
<beneroth>
razzy, connection between client and server should be TLS nowadays (depends on your client settings)
<Regenaxer>
Even leaving WhatsApp is difficult for most people
<beneroth>
but yes, every bot can join (but then is visible)
<beneroth>
also
<beneroth>
you are not aware of what info is in (meta) data about you
<beneroth>
with machine learning you can do (unsupervised learning) analysis which brings pattern to light you never knew
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
e.g. detecting if a female is pregnant just from changes of amounts grocery they buy, stuff like that
<Regenaxer>
The book "NSA" by Andreas Eschbach is enlightening
<Regenaxer>
It is not about *the* NSA
<beneroth>
or the book from Ed Snowden
<beneroth>
Eschbach is the same with the Kaiser for Deutschland, right?
<Regenaxer>
right
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
König iirc
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
Election computers
<beneroth>
right it's the pun with his lastname :)
<Regenaxer>
yes
<aw->
for the record, there's no proof that the "new" freenode won't sell out like the current one
<Regenaxer>
NSA means Nazi-Amt here
<Regenaxer>
aw-, yes
<Regenaxer>
In the book the Nazi detected hidden Jews just by the amounts of potatoes being bought by a family
<Regenaxer>
and found them cause a ladder was bought
<beneroth>
aw-, T. just the notion that it's the people who made us aware of the freenode sellout, which gives them so far the benefit of the doubt
<razzy>
ladder was bought?
<Regenaxer>
The hypothetical idea of the book is that Charles Babbage succeeded with his computer
<beneroth>
ah nice one
<Regenaxer>
So the Nazis had computers
<beneroth>
a steam punk setting then?
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
It is a horror scenario in that book
<Regenaxer>
horrifying
<beneroth>
aw-, and I don't want to use services by Mt Gox criminals ;-)
<Regenaxer>
I don't dare te read it a second time
<beneroth>
well
<beneroth>
such stuff is important, Regenaxer
<Regenaxer>
sure
<Regenaxer>
It gives an idea what an evil government can do
<beneroth>
never forget the Banalität des Bösen.. everyone can turned into that...and nothing is safe. perpetual safeguarding and self-reflection is imperative
<Regenaxer>
Lets see what Trump does in 4 years
<Regenaxer>
or Putin in 20
<beneroth>
see what the west is doing with Wikileaks, snowden, and assange
<Regenaxer>
sigh
<beneroth>
the UNO Torture guy jumps up and down and nobody is interested. because its better for comfort and career to ignore that
<beneroth>
same mechanism which allowed nazis to do their stuff
<beneroth>
the most clever thing the nazi did is distributing the tasks and responsibilities wide and far. so everyone feels a bit responsible (to not point out others) and at the same time not required to correct it (others could do it)
<beneroth>
bystander effect etc.
<aw->
beneroth: please stop now
<beneroth>
kk
<Regenaxer>
:D
<aw->
beneroth: you are only spreading oil on the fire and you don't even have direct access to the truth from both parties in this situation
<Regenaxer>
So we connected freenode and nazis
<aw->
all this chat is completely irrelevant to PicoLisp
<aw->
and it makes me want to leave
<beneroth>
on some level yes, on others not at all
<beneroth>
I don't want you to leave. I stop
<beneroth>
wanna talk about FP vs. OOP? :D
<Regenaxer>
yes, aw-, please stay
<aw->
i don't mind when we go off topic for a bit
<beneroth>
just tell me to stop, as you just did. all fine.
<aw->
but we're on almost 24 hours discussion about something that is not important or relevant
<beneroth>
I appreciate you and your POV's highly, I truly do.
<aw->
Regenaxer: i'd like to know if Geo has or will ever post his FPGA picolisp code for the hardware Pil machine he posted to youtube some years ago