<wpwrak>
the lcd cable does seem to be the main support issue that comes up here. so i think i'll keep those FPCs on my enemy list. alas, there's just no way of avoiding them when it comes to LCDs, na dparticularly not in hinged designs.
<wpwrak>
s/na d/and/
<wpwrak>
(no way of avoiding them) well ... almost. there are some oddball displays that have different means of attachment. not very relevant for this class of devices, though.
<grunthus>
Why not some sort of brush contact arrangement?
<grunthus>
(similar principle as in brush/commutator in motor)
<wpwrak>
hmm, contamination may be an issue there. also, probably complexity/size/cost.
<kristianpaul>
there are previous cases for contamination?
<wpwrak>
at least the FPCs are pretty much sealed in the areas where the mechanical action is.
<kristianpaul>
wich i wonder if at least should let the LCM misbehave not just kept off
<grunthus>
Looked like the FPC had ~12 connectors - could distribute over length of 'axle'?
<wpwrak>
grunthus: sounds big and expensive :)
<grunthus>
Another idea might be inductive loops in the hinge with pickup loops. Could these be small enough.
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: how do you translte bitwise to spanish? (if is posible)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (contamination) there would be if there was a brush/sliding mechanism.
<kristianpaul>
i cant still get my mind to get that word..
<grunthus>
s/loop/coil
<kristianpaul>
having problems with pointers aganin :S
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: bit por bit ? un bit a la vez ?
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<wpwrak>
grunthus: now it sounds very very expensive :) and also an EMI problem
<grunthus>
Oh dear. Hey, just get some of that new graphene stuff !!
<wpwrak>
grunthus: don't forget that the able also provides power. something like 100 mW (rough estimate, didn't look at the actual numbers)
<wpwrak>
s/able/cable/
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (pointers) sucks not to have an MMU that turns a bad pointer simply into a segfault instead of a dead system, doesn't it ? :-)
<wpwrak>
grunthus: if you're planning to play with UBB and ubb-vga, that's something you could still do before sending back the ben. the lcd actually only gets in the way with ubb-vga :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: you know my current suffering ;), but once i found root cause i should improve some skill i hope
<grunthus>
wpwrak: Ok, my last thought. A two core FPC or similar for power...
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: oh wow, i dint knew it MMU helped on tha way, now i have a +1 for then
<grunthus>
Some sort of optical coupling for data transmission to LCD.
<grunthus>
IR LED/photodiode.
<grunthus>
coder/decoder, no idea how small that could be.
<wpwrak>
heh, a high-speed IR link could work :) but then, if you already have an FPC, might as well use it for everything
<grunthus>
Would a two core power FPC not be more robust than the type currently used?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: finally found a good aplication for IR? :_)
<wpwrak>
let's see ... 16 bits per pixel, 320 x 200 x 50 Hz, that's about 51 Mbps. doable.
<wpwrak>
(two core) a little, but probably not substantially enough to be worth the extra trouble of avoiding the remaining signals.
<grunthus>
Could you not bundle two core wire along with fibre optic for IR into a single slim plastic sheath? The screen could then be detachable (although I'm not sure why that would be useful) as well/instead of hinged. Would perhaps be more reliable than FPC?
<grunthus>
Maybe not. Getting a bit ridiculous perhaps.
<grunthus>
Bye for now, will be back when my replacement Ben arrives.
<wpwrak>
not sure if fiberoptics let along a copper+fiberoptics combo is really more reliable than just a copper FPC
<wpwrak>
s/along/alone/
<wpwrak>
also, the optical connection ought to be fun :)
<kristianpaul>
aggrg
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
well is sunday :-)
<wolfspraul>
viric: do you have a nice screenshot of nanonixos running on the Ben?
<wolfspraul>
what's missing are a few more screenshots
<wolfspraul>
for VGA we have enough I think, I just need to collect them
<wolfspraul>
for nanonixos, Debian Wheezy, 05-22 image (xiangfu says another small update is coming 05-28 or so...), 4th, mplayer - not sure right now, hopefully I get some help
<wolfspraul>
I'll work a bit on the Milkymist section now :-)
<wolfspraul>
of course there may be more NanoNote stuff, things I overlooked, but this is a start
<wpwrak>
(vga) if you need any original (ungamma'ed, uncropped, unscaled) pictures, just let me know
<wpwrak>
(nanonote) soon (few more hours), i'll also have the documentation of the ben-wpan production test process
<vladkorotnev>
hello everyone :P
<wolfspraul>
vladkorotnev: hi
<wolfspraul>
ah true, we should mention ben-wpan production news
<wolfspraul>
well, I cleanup milkymist a bit first
<vladkorotnev>
wolfspraul: could you please point me at some SDIO libs for the NN?
<wolfspraul>
not really, because I don't know :-)
<wolfspraul>
you mean some library that allows you to read/write sdio commands from userspace?
<wolfspraul>
I have no idea, first see what the Linux kernel does about it...
<wpwrak>
... or maybe it's bit-banging ... :)
<vladkorotnev>
wolfspraul: yes, or some beginner project to blink an LED with the NN :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: never knew it existed. maybe you should introduce a "pimp oldies but goodies" section in the community news, and pimp it there ;-)
<kyak>
xiangfu: when do you plan to stop building backfire based images?
<xiangfu>
kyak, I will test 0528, if everything is fine (at least the Freedroid dvdk mentioned works fine) I will release the last 'backfire' openwrt release.
<kyak>
xiangfu: i see.. i think all patches from master have been put into trunk
<xiangfu>
then stop build 'backfire' release. switch to 'trunk' 100%, means we can move 'master' to release_2011-05-28
<kyak>
except for uboot patches.. not sure if they are necessary
<kyak>
that 0014 was not even required. It works already :)
<xiangfu>
kyak, yes. uboot. there is update in 'master', 'trunk' using a old version, but it's support n516, nanonote.
<kyak>
just the path a bit different
<kyak>
xiangfu: the path is /sys/devices/platform/spi_gpio.1/spi1.0/lcd/ili8960-lcd/brightness
<xiangfu>
kyak, thanks. :)
<DocScrutinizer>
kristianpaul: opened it?
<DocScrutinizer>
kristianpaul: (sorry, I never had the joy to touch a real wikireader, and the case changed a lot since I left the project, so no hints from my side)
<DocScrutinizer>
kristianpaul: try /join #openmoko-cdevel - except here the best chances to find someone who knows about WR there
<kristianpaul>
DocScrutinizer: (open) i'm planning to, you let me intriged about it
<kristianpaul>
ok
<lunavorax_frizzl>
Hum
<lunavorax_frizzl>
I have a question about bit-banging
<lunavorax_frizzl>
For the nanonote
<lunavorax_frizzl>
Is it possible to hook up (i suppose yes but anyway) to hook up motors and stuff and make an automatic bot with wheels controled by the nanonote ?
<lunavorax_frizzl>
Maybe the voltage is a little low but in theory.
<kristianpaul>
s/intriged/intrigued
<kristianpaul>
yes you can with proper motor driver and hopefully opto isolation just in case
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: If I connect qi-hw the-inc with meego-foss-hw-project (which allegedly has a sponsor). I have to insist in the senior EE part on your side ;-D
<kristianpaul>
FOSS hw? you mean FOSS as in freerunner? or copylefted?
<lunavorax_frizzl>
kristianpaul, ok, so I suppose the maximum voltage that the minisd card slot can output is 5v right ?
<DocScrutinizer>
unclear yet
<DocScrutinizer>
aiui as in FR
<DocScrutinizer>
meego-arm's future is all but bright - missing hw perspectives since Nokia sacked it
<kristianpaul>
lunavorax_frizzl: 3.3V
<DocScrutinizer>
so - as they are meego - they obviously thought "WE can do THAT!"
<kristianpaul>
lunavorax_frizzl: i think,
<kristianpaul>
lunavorax_frizzl: but anyway, thats not the point, as you'll just put a "driver" between nanonte and motors
<kristianpaul>
DocScrutinizer: ah okay i know what you meant with the lol
<lunavorax_frizzl>
kristianpaul, so you mean there's already a software for that ?
<kristianpaul>
lunavorax_frizzl: nope there is not, but there are projects like Blinkenlights to look at examples about bitbang SDIO
<kristianpaul>
lunavorax_frizzl: also, i dont see too much complexity for driver a DC motor, no more that 2 lines for PWN and direction right?
<kristianpaul>
DocScrutinizer: wich day should we look?
<DocScrutinizer>
current
<DocScrutinizer>
t0-25s ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:D
<lunavorax_frizzl>
kristianpaul, I don't know, I never coded anything that implies playing with the IO
<lunavorax_frizzl>
kristianpaul, I was also asking these question because I made a connection with that and what some people are doing when programming the parallel port to control robot stuffs.
<kristianpaul>
kinda same
<DocScrutinizer>
kristianpaul: even stepper motors o real problem, there's even a nice collection of all-in-one driver chips
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: well let's see what happens
<lunavorax_frizzl>
kristianpaul, anyway thanks for theses info :)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: sure. If you're interested at all, I'll keep you in
<lunavorax_frizzl>
kristianpaul, I'm just scared of screwing my hardware if I made a mistake while coding
<wolfspraul>
I'm very confident in our path here, if anything I regret that we can't speedup more on things like ben-wpan, the whole stack it needs, on the manufacturing side stuff like boom
<wolfspraul>
sure I'm interested, but let's see who that is, and what kind of expectations they have
<DocScrutinizer>
exactly, but also important to be there from T0
<DocScrutinizer>
it's always the foundation problems that bite your ass anytime later
<wolfspraul>
yes but it's also that people come and go, give up too fast, etc.
<wolfspraul>
no patience especially with manufacturing, which is where every successful hardware business better be rooted...
<DocScrutinizer>
and decisions like "where do we produce? Nokia fab | Qi" are sometimes early nad not reversible
<DocScrutinizer>
just had to ask if you're interested and I may keep you folks in mind when talking to them - you might as well say "MEH, meego. Nokia "
<wolfspraul>
where does our system level software come from? where do the RF stacks come from?
<DocScrutinizer>
I#m aware of those problems :-)
<wolfspraul>
I am doing copyleft hardware, as long as it fits that definition I'm interested, it's a net win for everybody.
<wolfspraul>
I wish we had much more investment in boom.
<wolfspraul>
also back to the KiCad server stuff, layout history, etc.
<DocScrutinizer>
ok, a clear statement. You're also not afraid of 10k volume
<wolfspraul>
a huge giant push on the whole ben-wpan problem
<wolfspraul>
no of course not
<wolfspraul>
you cannot do 10k with a new design anyway, you know that
<wolfspraul>
first 10, then 20, then 50, then 100, ...
<DocScrutinizer>
you know me ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but I've seen a lot of such 'promising talks'
<DocScrutinizer>
haha, too many actually
<wolfspraul>
this guy saying "I want to push OMAP" :-) oh oh :-)
<wolfspraul>
software people dreaming up hardware is always a lot of fun to watch
<DocScrutinizer>
fo rmeego-arm it's sane notion, as they already have something for OMAP
<wolfspraul>
sometimes their dreams are rooted straight in some chip maker's press releases
<wolfspraul>
sure, that may be. I'm just saying how I've seen these things developing in the past.
<wolfspraul>
chip maker X comes out with some fantastic press release
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah "sorry dudes, Samsung never will build this SoC"
<wolfspraul>
free software guru Y cannot really read to the end of the release, but is already dreaming up his 'open' device using this great chip
<wolfspraul>
argh
<wolfspraul>
there's like 10,000 things or more between such a 'chip maker press release' and a manufactured working device
<wolfspraul>
but whatever...
<DocScrutinizer>
OMAP3530 series is real
<wolfspraul>
yes of course
<wolfspraul>
OMAP are great chips
<wolfspraul>
did you get my point?
<DocScrutinizer>
sure
<wolfspraul>
I'm just saying I saw this kind of logic too often.
<wolfspraul>
so I'm now wary
<DocScrutinizer>
that's why I try to get in *early*
<wolfspraul>
hardware (manufacturing) is freaking difficult
<DocScrutinizer>
those sw dudes need some decent grounding
<wolfspraul>
and some people compare with a running train, high-speed train
<wolfspraul>
you cannot just design something and have the same system running at that speed
<DocScrutinizer>
wasn't that me? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
vaguely recalls all the nausea he felt with sean's decisions
<wolfspraul>
I'm not even sure we should attempt gsm, I guess it's 3g/lte nowadays, too soon
<wolfspraul>
I very much like the work Werner has been doing with ben-wpan
<wolfspraul>
we need to get that to work, software stack, produced and sold on the hardware side, later integrated into a more polished and cheaper product, etc.
<wolfspraul>
of course if an investor comes along and wants to lift this all to higher ground faster, sure, definitely interested
<DocScrutinizer>
well, my notion about wpan as a concept is somewhat less optimistic, but I agree on werner doing a damn good job there
<wolfspraul>
I think we cannot jump onto the 3g/lte train now.
<wolfspraul>
too difficult
<wolfspraul>
we = me :-)
<wolfspraul>
if someone else thinks they can, great
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm sure we'll get 'some' help with the cellmo side, you know it's still mae... err meego
<DocScrutinizer>
has scaring visions of daughterboards...
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I got the advantage of knowing probably 50% of those dudes since almost 2 years now. I to some degree know what they dream of and how to deal with those dreams and delusions
<DocScrutinizer>
and they know me and my sometimes rather grumpy cynical way, and must somehow tolerate it, otherwise they wouldn't contact me
<wolfspraul>
I'm interested in manufacturing stuff
<wolfspraul>
that includes sourcing, testing
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: maegor ! ;-)
<wolfspraul>
if I do it, it's going to be 100% free and open documented
<wolfspraul>
if it's real, and we can get some money, the #1 person to employ would be Werner :-) so we can beef up boom and other goodies
<wolfspraul>
that's just my thinking
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: I've been posting almost same wording same second to laterego
<wpwrak>
likes that thinking ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
the problem is the investor wants to see some ROI
<DocScrutinizer>
at least break even ;-)
<wolfspraul>
why is that a problem?
<wolfspraul>
every normal business accepts some kind of risk, and that risk is what makes it profitable later
<wolfspraul>
what kind of risk does this investor want to take? what does he believe in?
<wolfspraul>
something like "if I had something like the iPhone, I could imagine investing 10 million USD", that's not going to cut it
<wolfspraul>
because in that thinking 'iphone' includes everything from hardware design, to software development reaching back 10 years, to retail chain, to established global supply chain, to itunes/app store, to to to to
<wolfspraul>
so that's stupid. if you want that, you better have a few billion to invest, over many years. and then its' actually better to make a much smaller step first, and make that profitable, and then do the second step.
<wolfspraul>
if the investor is _purely_ interested in financials, I doubt this will work either
<wpwrak>
indeed. e.g., make a ya first, with a properly open process. then use that process for harder targets.
<wolfspraul>
there are very profitable investments in the financial world, you never need to leave it to make a lot of money
<wolfspraul>
so that's why I'm asking about "which risk" the investor wants to take, and what he believes will take off/justify the investment
<wpwrak>
the financial world is a bit our problem. if you just want to make money, why even bother with production ?
<wolfspraul>
we see...
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, of course
<wolfspraul>
you don't :-)
<wolfspraul>
so there needs to be someone who wants (!) to take on production risks
<wolfspraul>
marketing risks
<wolfspraul>
software development risks
<wolfspraul>
and so on
<wolfspraul>
quite a lot in such a little smartphone :-)
<wpwrak>
so what sort of romantic notion would we have to appeal to then ? considering that we've already established that it's not very interesting financially
<wolfspraul>
no I think it may be interesting financially
<wolfspraul>
risk = profit
<wolfspraul>
we have plenty of risks, no?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
oh, you can get the craziest risks in finance, too
<wolfspraul>
but an investor who just looks at money, x USD today, x+y USD in z months, that will not work
<wolfspraul>
because if that's his thinking, he will not want to take on risks outside of financial products
<wolfspraul>
yes [finance risk] - those are for the purely financial investors then
<wolfspraul>
that's my point, we need to understand the thinking behind DocScrutinizer's/meego's idea
<wolfspraul>
the fact that the investor wants to make his money back is only logical
<wolfspraul>
of course. from device sales?
<wolfspraul>
there are so many ways to make money back
<wolfspraul>
carrier subsidies
<wolfspraul>
app store sales
<wolfspraul>
advertisements in free apps
<wolfspraul>
too many
<wolfspraul>
need to understand the investor
<DocScrutinizer>
re, sorry
<DocScrutinizer>
reading backscroll
<wolfspraul>
I'm looking at this just from a manufacturing perspective
<wolfspraul>
my risk is yield
<wolfspraul>
I take that
<wolfspraul>
I can sell for bom + x%
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how do you like the table ? "manufacturing" needs a bit of expanding and things like sourcing and such are missing, too (may be too much detail, though)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: aiui and what he told me, the investor has to be interested in a meego development device with a longer product lifecycle (and support - and perspective)Â Â than N900. This investor is probably involved with meego (intel? some affiliated inc?) and they want to break even, ROI a nice-to-have but not mandatory
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: the device in spe is clearly labeled as a meego-developer-device, with phone and data connectivity aiui
<DocScrutinizer>
omap3, potentially omap4
<DocScrutinizer>
depending on risk evaluation. Product requirement spec next ToDo
<DocScrutinizer>
my main concern atm is whether investor is aware at all about the 5..6 after the USD10^
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: I like it, let me dwell over it tomorrow
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: meego-arm aka handset-UX projext is at a dead end with their options for hw. No main manuf seems to jump on this train, while Nokia effectively binned all their plans
<wolfspraul>
how did Intel do their smartphone prototypes?
<DocScrutinizer>
dunno, do they have any that really work? :-P
<wolfspraul>
no but I'm sure there were small runs etc.
<wolfspraul>
the usual stuff
<DocScrutinizer>
you're not talking about that x86-phones?
<wolfspraul>
yes, those
<DocScrutinizer>
eeew
<DocScrutinizer>
reportedly a major fail
<wolfspraul>
because you say 'Intel'
<wolfspraul>
sure, but someone must have made some prototypes
<wolfspraul>
anyway you know it all, you just talk and see what happens
<DocScrutinizer>
intel isn't short of R&D and manufacturing facilities of arbitrary scale
<DocScrutinizer>
I did talk all the time, that's why this delay here
<DocScrutinizer>
of my answers
<wolfspraul>
ah, don't say that. to put together something as exotic (for them) as a smartphone the best choice may be an outside small firm
<DocScrutinizer>
that's what I think we see happening here
<DocScrutinizer>
mere handwaving
<wolfspraul>
alright I'll read the backlog tomorrow, have to go sleep now
<DocScrutinizer>
it's more economical for intel to get a working meego-arm and port it to any future x86-phone or whatever they decide to sell for SoC to their customers, than to do all the development of hanset UX and kernel and whatnot on their own
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: cya
<DocScrutinizer>
so throw a few megabucks at some "fool" to do the heavy lifting for you, while the name Intel doesn't show up anywhere (low risk for corporate reputation etc). Let them use whatever they like - after all they probably are better with Nokia than you'd be with your intel businesscard
<DocScrutinizer>
and in the end you got a much easier to kill or buyout competitor in the end, when you start to sell your intel-phones, than it'd be when Nokia did that
<DocScrutinizer>
intel and M$ are friends. Nokia and M$ are friens now. How's Intel explain they go for meego instead of winP7 for their phones :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
I thing the air is burning between Nokia and Intel
<DocScrutinizer>
think*
<DocScrutinizer>
NB last meegoconf beginning of last week (7 days ago) had *not a single* official Nokia speaker, not a single Nokia desk afaik
<DocScrutinizer>
and last thing rumour had about that 'meego device' Nokia promised for this year: it's a phone running a severely crippled/mod-o-fied *maemo* v6 aka harmattan OS, and meego board refused to allow Nokia to call it 'Meego'
<DocScrutinizer>
so odds are everybody's severely pissed right now
<DocScrutinizer>
Intel doesn't want to take the "risk" to build phones with meego. Nokia "mustn't". What's left to save the meego idea? Outsource it
<DocScrutinizer>
you know FSF is third man on board of meego. So chances for a copyleft hw manuf are good I'd think
<DocScrutinizer>
err, FSF?
<DocScrutinizer>
sorry, I need some minutes to finally wake up
<kristianpaul>
FSF? really
<kristianpaul>
well at least then could rise funds from somwhere.. dont you think?
<DocScrutinizer>
(run out of supplies like 3 days ago)
<DocScrutinizer>
glares at the one black banana over there
<DocScrutinizer>
seems to me like they don't conserve as long as they used to do
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (red dots) documentation of the SoC not publicly available. publicly but not redistributable docs would be yellow. redistributable docs (or self-made chip ;-) green.
<DocScrutinizer>
aaah, I thought in terms of BOM
<DocScrutinizer>
[2011-05-29 18:27:54] <DocScrutinizer> available datasheets for all the chips