Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<niniadcobre>
wolfspraul: Hi, I'm Miriam, Rafa's gf. You will send a nn to wpwrak these days that is for me, so I will like to know how to pay for it
<niniadcobre>
hi all
<wolfspraul>
hey, nice
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
niniadcobre: welcome here and happy to see you!
<niniadcobre>
:-) hehe thanks
<wolfspraul>
how is everything?
<wolfspraul>
are you still in beautiful Buenos Aires?
<wolfspraul>
I lost track, I thought there was a move somewhere...
<niniadcobre>
wolfspraul: pretty good, needing a nn because rafa is always breaking the fw
<wolfspraul>
niniadcobre: please shoot me a short mail to wolfgang@sharism.cc
<niniadcobre>
wolfspraul: yeah, we move like 1400km away from bs as
<wolfspraul>
I will reply with a pay link, I suggest credit card (visa or mastercard). is that ok?
<wolfspraul>
paypal or bitcoins also ok
<niniadcobre>
yes, perfect
<niniadcobre>
visa/master any of them
<wolfspraul>
if you want to try bitcoins, here you can spend some! :-)
<niniadcobre>
hehe, no I don't have, so I will try the old methods (crdit card :P)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<kristianpaul>
hi miriam :)
<niniadcobre>
hi :) kristianpaul
<wolfspraul>
yeah :-) niniadcobre - stop by here more :-)
<wolfspraul>
what are you doing nowadays?
<wolfspraul>
any exciting ideas for new computing devices?
<niniadcobre>
not really, I start to teach at university this year (aside my other 8hs job) so that kept me quite busy
<niniadcobre>
but I hope to start playing a bit with mi new nn :-)
<niniadcobre>
and teach somethign about it too
<wolfspraul>
niniadcobre: what do you teach?
<niniadcobre>
it is a very basic class about computer architecture, os, networking and security
<wolfspraul>
hey, use Milkymist!
<wolfspraul>
seriously :-)
<wpwrak>
a short class about pretty much everything :)
<niniadcobre>
hehehe yeah....
<wolfspraul>
at least they learn about a free architecture all the way into the SoC, with 'interesting' problems left open for the students :-)
<wolfspraul>
unlike the other boring architectures, where everything just works - bah!
<wolfspraul>
seriously, you interested?
<wolfspraul>
or you don't have such flexibility?
<wolfspraul>
probably also study material missing...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and where would be the angle for the government ? how well do you bribe ? :)
<wolfspraul>
not at all
<wolfspraul>
and yes, that's indeed the first question that comes up in such proposals
<wolfspraul>
from the professors
<wolfspraul>
"how much money do I get?"
<kristianpaul>
milkymist really have all you need for a computer arch os and networking class :)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
that's why I don't go there anymore...
<wolfspraul>
academia is really corrupt imho
<wolfspraul>
maybe a few idealist holdouts like Miriam :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: it's chronically underfunded. that's what you get then
<wolfspraul>
that may well be
<wolfspraul>
anyway, niniadcobre maybe you think about Milkymist
<wolfspraul>
probably study material missing though
<wolfspraul>
but that's something that is good work for us to add
<kristianpaul>
i mean in the source code/documentation avaliable
<kristianpaul>
study material, very important indeed
<kristianpaul>
..
<niniadcobre>
I would love to, but this is a pretty basic basic class (not grade career) and they do not have any background, so I need to keep it reeeeeeeealllly simple
<wolfspraul>
niniadcobre: what is not simple about Milkymist?
<niniadcobre>
that sound like a really good idea for the professor working in embedded class
<niniadcobre>
wolfspraul: but not mine, they asked me (career's director) to teach them how the things works but working with the tools they use every day
<wpwrak>
that would be excel and flash ? :)
<niniadcobre>
they really don't know nothing about systems, and I need to merge everything in 60hs :)
<kristianpaul>
html
<wpwrak>
... on the university's latest pentium I
<niniadcobre>
wpwrak: hahaha true... we are in a really bad situation
<wolfspraul>
niniadcobre: yes but still I think the Milkymist is in fact a super simple good study object
<wolfspraul>
although I am not sure what you mean with 'systems'
<wolfspraul>
anyway, it's just an idea
<wolfspraul>
if you have feedback what kind of study material one might need in such a case, let us know
<wolfspraul>
you work with the students, you have a lot of valuable insights
<wolfspraul>
and sure, I have no illusions about what they are learning, how much, how talented they are, what they will really do with that knowledge in life later, and so on
<wolfspraul>
but I'm an eternal optimistc
<wolfspraul>
you are teaching the future nobel laureates there!
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: the first problem is that M1 is about USD 800 too expensive for that university. unless, of course, you manage to bribe some politicians in some way
<wolfspraul>
we haven't even talked about money yet, I am sure we find cheap equipment to support any serious academic effort
<wolfspraul>
emphasis on 'serious'
<wolfspraul>
and yes, indeed I am in no need to compete with large corps about who has the most efficient and untracable bribing
<wolfspraul>
the professors need to break through that, or students who don't even go study or drop out
<wpwrak>
and the latest statement of our dear president was that she didn't wish "not even a single nail" to be imported. so good luck with selling that stuff made in evil asia :)
<wolfspraul>
some always notice last :-)
<wolfspraul>
ha ha. politics.
<wolfspraul>
that's the woman who surrounds herself with tons of imported luxury goods, no?
<niniadcobre>
wolfspraul: the same...
<wpwrak>
they're not strictly imported .. it's personal belongings she brings home from her shopping trips in paris and such
<wolfspraul>
definitely not nails though
<wolfspraul>
but maybe 200 USD nail polish
<wolfspraul>
you just misunderstood this 'not a single nail' message
<wolfspraul>
that was a reminder to herself
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
only fur, shoes, boats, jets, cosmetics, watches, ...
<wolfspraul>
BUT NOT A SINGLE NAIL!
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
de-industrialization is actually part of the plan
<wpwrak>
populism thrives best if the people are uneducated and depend on the government for subsistence
<wolfspraul>
in my next life I go into politics and have some fun
<wolfspraul>
what I read about the Argentine government and cabinet sometimes is the kind of stories that makes me want to participate :-)
<wolfspraul>
all heights and depths of real life are there :-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
don't you agree? :-)
<wolfspraul>
it's like a drama, like opera
<roh>
heh. and i thought politicians are there to entertain us. after all they do a really good show and not much proper work
<wolfspraul>
still singing an aria with knife in the chest
<roh>
like a soap opera, ack.
<wolfspraul>
keine menschliche schwaeche war ihnen fremd...
<wolfspraul>
great stuff
<wolfspraul>
almost as good as Milkymist :-)
<wpwrak>
i think we need to look for more classical examples. nero may not be a bad one.
<roh>
hrhr.. and now think there openmoko would be in that
<roh>
or the nn
<wolfspraul>
the problem is that hardware prices are collapsing, and will continue to do so
<wolfspraul>
so making a 30 USD product last 3 years instead of 1 may not be worth it
<wolfspraul>
interesting developments for sure
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<blogic>
interesting chart indeed
<blogic>
one day i will write a book about why most management teams suck and actively prevent developer crowds fro being productive and pushing updated
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<wolfspraul>
not sure whether it's that easy
<wolfspraul>
I think the android update and malware situation was obvious from the beginning, for everyone
<blogic>
hmmm
<blogic>
well i am yet to find able managers
<blogic>
every company i worked at so far suffred similar problems
<wolfspraul>
maybe a lot of customers just don't care, they use their phone to make phone calls, and replace it when they run into any problem
<blogic>
one of the biggest problems being that most companyies expect their devs to do QA themselves
<blogic>
wolfspraul: that is infact the case
<blogic>
mobile market is a special case i guess
<whitequark>
does anyone know who of the android vendors is the most "open"?
<whitequark>
afaik in this case it's not a religious choice anymore: if they are, you don't get stuck with an outdated kernel due to blobs
<wolfspraul>
hard to say, maybe you should follow the cyanogen project if you are not doing that yet
<blogic>
wolfspraul: htc stopped lockng the bootloaders
<wolfspraul>
it looks like the phones sold directly by Google are pretty good
<blogic>
making cyanogenmod easy to install
<wolfspraul>
yes but as the article points out the entire android ecosystem is trapped with the update situation
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<wolfspraul>
not sure whether they can or even want to change that, seems everybody who participates is satisfied with their Android business
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<whitequark>
well, I never actually used any android stuff for more than 10 minutes (total in my life)
<whitequark>
but I did used Apple stuff, and I dislike it
<whitequark>
and you don't have any other viable options actually
<blogic>
i switched to android about 1 year ago
<whitequark>
because I definitely need at least web and gps/maps
<whitequark>
and the only way you can get that in one device is buying a smartphone
<blogic>
now, after 1 year i must say i dont use the features, its big and the battery is always empty
<blogic>
i have been thinking about switching back to a "dumbphone"
<whitequark>
the battery stuff, yes, but a friend with android says that after installing cyanogen it's 2 days with low to moderate usage
<whitequark>
fine for me
<whitequark>
I need the features, and you have plenty of devices on market. Big? select the one you like more
<whitequark>
dumbphones are actually too dumb. I have been frequently caught when I needed to use email
<whitequark>
or, worse, gps
<blogic>
ok
<blogic>
i live in a urban area so i need no gps
<blogic>
and having a 12 hour workday i am happy when i get no mails :)
<blogic>
what i will miss is maps
<blogic>
the only real feature i ever found in a smartphone that is f use to me
<blogic>
but then i am a late adopter anyhow :D
<whitequark>
of course I live in urban area too
<whitequark>
that's the very reason I need gps
<whitequark>
ah, wait
<whitequark>
what country do you live in?
<wolfspraul>
blogic: I don't think you are a late adopter, don't fall for the marketing propaganda of some desperate high-tech shops :-)
<wolfspraul>
they are under sales pressure, and try to make everybody feel late, that's all
<blogic>
wolfspraul: :)
<blogic>
wolfspraul: hamburg/germany
<wolfspraul>
it always amazed me how much they can talk people into a 5-year old computer being 'outdated', simply by constantly raising expectations on which features a 'not-outdated' computer must have
<wolfspraul>
hilarious to watch
<blogic>
wolfspraul: i am stuck with vim + xterm ;)
<wolfspraul>
meanwhile we pay super high premiums for old cheese
<wolfspraul>
old wine
<blogic>
as long as it is red wine i am ok with paying good money for good wine
<blogic>
;)
<whitequark>
blogic: ah. well, maybe you have better topological sense than me
<whitequark>
blogic: because I live in Moscow, and it is... well, F*CKING BIG, and it is NOT easy to navigate in
<whitequark>
to the point I feel better walking without a map because I don't then know that I am already lost
<whitequark>
(the "already lost" part does not depend a lot on the time in walk, actually.)
<blogic>
hahaha
<whitequark>
on the other hand, when I have a choice of two differnt roads, of which one is right, I *constantly* select the wrong one
<whitequark>
wpwrak: any idea of how it may be even _remotely_ related to #qi?
<wpwrak>
perhaps because some people here speak german - so at least the question can be understood or interpreted ? :)
<whitequark>
:D
<whitequark>
а не заняться ли мне тем же?.. :)
<wpwrak>
quid pro quo ?
<Jay7>
whitequark: ;)
* Jay7
-> sleep
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: for STE it hopefully is :)
<DocScrutinizer>
sure, the LTE stack probably is extremely fine - just my access to it is not as exciting as I once thought it might be
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: and maybe one day, there'll be a chance to put your experience with LTE to good use in the name of freedom as well. you're now officially our mole in LTE-dom ;-)
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
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<wpwrak>
that's commonly known as "anti-climax" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
hmm, never heard of it but sounds about right
<DocScrutinizer>
and *of course* all their images are signed
<DocScrutinizer>
the only exciting thing I learnt today was I'll get a chance to learn about their signing infra
<wpwrak>
;-))
<DocScrutinizer>
there's exactly ONE signing host (I don't think I'm already breaking any NSA by saying that)
<wpwrak>
it will probably be disappointingly insecure
<wpwrak>
nDa :)
<DocScrutinizer>
yea
<DocScrutinizer>
mech typo
<wpwrak>
one host sounds sensible. if there's no network cable going there, even better. of course, that may be confidential information
<DocScrutinizer>
it sounded to me like that signing may or may not work, depending on your luck, or moon phase
<wpwrak>
so what will your work be on that LTE stack ?
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
not entirely clear, but base software, particularly drivers for interfaces it seems
<DocScrutinizer>
think of stuff like on crappy S3C2442 where all periph clocks are derived from master clock
<wpwrak>
ah yes, industry has a voracious need for drivers
<wpwrak>
well, there's worse than having synchronized clocks :)
<DocScrutinizer>
now what's wrong with an UART not working up to 6Mbps though it should? Master clock too slow :-D
<wpwrak>
yes, that's sometimes the drawback of a master clock for everything :)
<DocScrutinizer>
no divider available on subclock generator to run at 6Mbps with that master
<wpwrak>
add a PLL ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
we're SW - alas
<DocScrutinizer>
no chip modding
<DocScrutinizer>
the lab is not essentially differing from TPE OM lab
<wpwrak>
then it gets trickier
<DocScrutinizer>
just a bit larger
<wpwrak>
and just as much fun ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
sure, I bet
<wpwrak>
oh dear
<wpwrak>
how are your coworkers ? friendly ?
<DocScrutinizer>
nah, my second day's evening
<DocScrutinizer>
yep, so far
<DocScrutinizer>
EE folks
<DocScrutinizer>
:-D
<DocScrutinizer>
we're a nice bunch
<wpwrak>
good. so you can curse sw together ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
nit exactly
<DocScrutinizer>
not* - EE
<DocScrutinizer>
we're EE SW
<DocScrutinizer>
sth like that
<DocScrutinizer>
lot of scopes, few soldering irons
<wpwrak>
ah :) EE who don't run scared when somebody shows them a vi. good :)
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm not that sure - win all over
<wpwrak>
finally real equipment. you must have missed that
<DocScrutinizer>
some hw on every desk, next to workstation
<DocScrutinizer>
not in lab ;-D
<DocScrutinizer>
a PSU here, a logic analyzer there
<DocScrutinizer>
but for now I'm digging thru ClearCase
<DocScrutinizer>
*cough*
<wpwrak>
that's kinda like svn for perverts, right ?
<DocScrutinizer>
right
<DocScrutinizer>
raher like git for windows folks
<wpwrak>
oh, that advantaged ?
<wpwrak>
advanced
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
even has graphs for dependencies
<wpwrak>
good for them :)
<DocScrutinizer>
but we may use cygwin ;-D
<mth>
is it still the case that dynamic views are too heavy to actually use with a big group of people or did that change with advances in hardware?
<DocScrutinizer>
seems it's not an issue - dynamic view is the usual one
<wpwrak>
mth: faster hardware - the ultimate solution to software development incompetence ;-)
<mth>
the CC people were looking down on our use of CVS, but we got builds in 5 minutes while theirs took hours
<DocScrutinizer>
hehehe
<DocScrutinizer>
CC is a friggin monster
<DocScrutinizer>
config layers for config layers for config layers
<DocScrutinizer>
and it not only competes against git, it also makes make obsolete
<mth>
I guess it didn't help that they ran the CC server on expensive Sun hardware... so expensive that they couldn't replace it yet even though it was 5 years old
<wpwrak>
i'm happy that we now have revision control systems that operate smoothly with local copies. that's probably the biggest improvement since CVS
<DocScrutinizer>
on CC you can define to be local what ever you like
<mth>
CVS is horrible, actually, but all of its flaws can be worked around
<wpwrak>
making make obsolete - when just shooting your own foot is not enough, but you have to first poison, irradiate, and burn it
<DocScrutinizer>
and btw they wrapped some proprietary stuff around CC to make it work in their environment and naming scheme
<wpwrak>
i worked for a while with CVS. wasn't that bad. not all that much of a difference to SVN for how i used it
<DocScrutinizer>
then there's eclipse
<DocScrutinizer>
integrated into all that
<wpwrak>
are you sure you got the name right ? STE ? not SaTaN ? :)
<DocScrutinizer>
heh
<mth>
CVS needs a server even for a diff, which is probably the most common daily operation
<mth>
and tagging is done per file, so it's extremely slow on large code bases
<mth>
if you abort a tag command halfway, you actually have tagged half the archive
<DocScrutinizer>
LOL
<DocScrutinizer>
cool shit
<mth>
even figuring out which tags exist means you look for the oldest surviving tag and run "cvs log" on that
<mth>
SVN is a big step up from CVS for any non-trivial use
<DocScrutinizer>
well tags under CC aren't exactly joy either
<mth>
*look for the oldest surviving file
<mth>
like README or the top-level Makefile
<wpwrak>
i vaguely remember mails being sent before larger-scale changes in CVS ...
<DocScrutinizer>
dunno, somehow this shit makes me feel sick nowadays
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: shit like CVS ? or like CC ?
<DocScrutinizer>
so probably I'll like it in 3 months
<DocScrutinizer>
CC, git, CVS, eclipse, C
<DocScrutinizer>
c++
<wpwrak>
ah, software development in general :)
<DocScrutinizer>
I somehow feel like an old professor who prefers teaching and discussing with other old professors over actually getting his hands dirty
<DocScrutinizer>
and gooosh I hated those guys
<DocScrutinizer>
now I'm obviouls yone of them
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
your mind may have wandered off, but your hands won't have forgotten the joy of getting dirty :)
<DocScrutinizer>
hat's what I hope for
<DocScrutinizer>
that's
<DocScrutinizer>
though I also hate the taxes we poor employees have to pay
<mth>
I do like Eclipse for Java, since there it actually adds something besides syntax highlighting
<mth>
like "list all callers of this method"
<DocScrutinizer>
they got that stuff there, sth alike lxr/mxr
<wpwrak>
those are what keep the 1% fed. they'd starve without it. show some compassion ! ;-)
<mth>
but last time I checked it didn't have stuff like that for C/C++
<mth>
not reliable, anyway
<DocScrutinizer>
looked pretty much like mxr.maemo.org to me
<mth>
for example, when methods are overloaded, does it show the actual callers of the method or all callers to methods of the same name?
<DocScrutinizer>
overWAHT?
<DocScrutinizer>
;-P
<mth>
well, if you want to remove overloading, the question "who calls this" is very relevant :)
<DocScrutinizer>
as, you know, we're the base sw dept
<DocScrutinizer>
and drivers usually aren't c++
<mth>
wpwrak: yep, but if you're doing OO then you might get a lot of false positives from either overloading or methods with the same name in a completely separate class hierarchy
<wpwrak>
(gg) a quick grep on all the files in the hierarchy. and then, if you don't ^C, it runs vi on all of them, with the search expression already pre-set.
<wpwrak>
oh sure, with OO you're doomed
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah, overload -
<mth>
Eclipse when editing Java actually looks at the parse tree of the program and not just the text
<mth>
Xcode is also moving in that direction although it's still hit and miss
<wpwrak>
you mean the class hierarchy ? 'cause the parse tree won't tell you much more than the text
<DocScrutinizer>
a proper compiler would do that job as well
<wpwrak>
and a proper language doesn't have that problem in the first place ;-)
<mth>
parse tree with type info
<DocScrutinizer>
s/would/ought/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer meant: "a proper compiler ought do that job as well"
<mth>
I think it's one of the reasons Apple wanted their own compiler and wrote it as a library with a small command line front-end
<mth>
GPL3 being the other reason
<DocScrutinizer>
hahaha
<DocScrutinizer>
a compiler lib, *nice*
<DocScrutinizer>
well pals, I'm a wreck and in 5h the night is over
<DocScrutinizer>
o/
<mth>
nite
<wpwrak>
yeah, better get some rest :)
<wpwrak>
sleep deprivation and a win-centric sw development environment probably don't go together well
<mth>
dunno, maybe it makes more sense if you're only half awake
<whitequark>
oh yes, lxr.
<whitequark>
pretty much screwed up for OO
<wpwrak>
hmm, possibly. then at least the neurons sleeping will think it was only a bad dream.
<whitequark>
the saddest thing is, exuberant ctags are fine for OO, it's just the frontend
<whitequark>
and it's written in Perl. more precisely, in one of worst forms of it. not a pearl of software development indeed
<wpwrak>
the nice think about perl is that there's more than one way. and what's even better is that, no matter how many there are, at least one is at the same time brilliant and unbelievably dirty :)
<whitequark>
the thing I love in Ruby is that it does aforementioned rule the right way
<whitequark>
i.e. it's easier to not turn your code into a tangled mess than the opposite
<whitequark>
quite an achievment imo
<whitequark>
*achievement
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<wpwrak>
hmm, scary. was that xchat crash instant karmic retribution ?
<whitequark>
oh, have I talked to you in the meantime?..
<wpwrak>
naw, i'll stick with perl as my main scripting language. python is okay-ish for some things, too, but i don't use it enough to really feel at home there. also, it tries too much to enforce "clean" programming. if i care about that, it's something bigger and then it'll be in C anyway.
<whitequark>
well, ruby/python is a bit religious
<whitequark>
python cares about cleanness, ruby gathered some bits from perl (multiple ways) and lisp (uses lambdas a lot in a nice and understandable way)
<whitequark>
so, you see why there are quite a few flamewars
<wpwrak>
ah usual ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/ah/as/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "as usual ;-)"
<whitequark>
qi-bot: thanks
<whitequark>
hm
<whitequark>
I wonder if it really knows the syntax
<whitequark>
s,the,the perl,
<whitequark>
nah.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: do you possibly know why there are few combined wifi+bt minipcie cards around?
<whitequark>
a valid reason may be that they usually work bad. on the other side, I've only seen broadcom ones
<whitequark>
looks like "screwed up and losing 50% of packets" is the normal modus operandi for them
<wpwrak>
no, dunno. is minipcie still used a lot for wlan in general ? or have they moved to integrating it in a non-modular way ?
<wpwrak>
;-))
<whitequark>
still used a lot
<whitequark>
and I like it
<whitequark>
because you can get all that broadcom shit and burn it in microwave
<whitequark>
and insert some sane atheros ones instead
<wpwrak>
;-)
<whitequark>
every f*cking broadcom device I seen in my life wasn't working good
<whitequark>
every single one.
<whitequark>
do they do anything good at all?!
<whitequark>
and why the hell their crap ends being shipped everywhere
<whitequark>
(I don't know if you've seen "The IT Crowd" sitcom, but if you do, you'll instantly recognize why I often say "ahhh, broadcom...")