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<rejon>
wpwrak, what are you adding to m1?
<rejon>
a new compiler?
<wpwrak>
i'm restructuring the existing one
<rejon>
its a thing of beauty to see new code coming in
<rejon>
so thorough
<rejon>
inspiring
<wpwrak>
it used to be split in a very inconvenient way, with part handling the parsing of lines and a separate part parsing the content of the lines
<wpwrak>
(roughly)
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
what's interesting is that i also found a few bugs in the patches. e.g., the altars of madness now twist and turn. they look a lot madder now ;-)
<rejon>
cool
<rejon>
great if this accelerates compiling time
<rejon>
esp. when you have to compile in front of people who invented compilers
<wpwrak>
;-))
<rejon>
Hi gordon bell in the audience
<rejon>
Alan Kay was sick that day
<wpwrak>
but i think your problem as just the large number of images
<wpwrak>
s/as/was/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "but i think your problem was just the large number of images"
<wpwrak>
regarding compile time, there isn't a lot left to squeeze out. maybe another 10%, but then we're at the limit.
<rejon>
But, everytime you click "Go" the m1 compiles the patches
<wpwrak>
yes
<rejon>
wonder if there can be a check if there is a need to even compile again
<wpwrak>
we could try caching, yes
<wpwrak>
another issue is that it's too easy to fall out of performance mode. if you have a mouse connected, this is pretty much guaranteed to happen the sooner or the later
<rejon>
yes
<rejon>
this is what happened to me
<rejon>
really embarrasing
<rejon>
soooo, I went into presentation mode where I had it left off, running the animated logo, and instead, milkymist admin interface
<wpwrak>
that's what you get for abusing your M1 for something as mundane as slide shows ;-)
<rejon>
wpwrak, i animated all the slides
<rejon>
i mean added effects
<wpwrak>
wow
<rejon>
just subtle
<wpwrak>
you owe us a video :)
<rejon>
I agree, I set it up first to do the mundane, but A.) it looked like dogshit at that resolution B.) felt like an atrocity
<rejon>
wpwrak, yah, that event was on lockdown
<rejon>
i'll try to get one out here now
<rejon>
i can do an update
<rejon>
The most helpful will be one big ass button that just advances to the next patch in perf. mode
<rejon>
anyway, with the ability to set a button to just advance slides
<rejon>
then, I will feel comfortable using my m1 now all the time for presentations
<rejon>
great to get image resolution up too
<rejon>
but, its great to be able to show images, and then have live patches in between rather than screenshots
<wpwrak>
how about the prev/next buttons ? don't they work in performance mode ?
<wpwrak>
(resolution) i wouldn't get up my hopes too high regarding that. once the color depth is increased, we're pretty much at the end of that memory bandwidth
<rejon>
wpwrak, one button maps to one patch
<rejon>
need ir and/or keyboard buttons to map to actions too
<wpwrak>
also the buttons on the M1 case ?
<rejon>
not sure
<rejon>
didn't try
<rejon>
only the IR remote
<rejon>
on this use
<rejon>
ideal too
<rejon>
brb
<wpwrak>
aah, i see. that may not work perfectly
<wpwrak>
(haven't tried IR yet)
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<rjeffries>
cool whitequark you rock
<rjeffries>
whitequark
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<whitequark>
I'm curious if RoHS solder reacts differently to temperature swings
<whitequark>
e.g. do BGA balls crack?
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<whitequark>
and by "temperature swings" I mean the ones at transportation
<whitequark>
i.e. +50..-20
<whitequark>
... simultaneously at the different sides of the box.
<whitequark>
you never know those paths in hell Russian Post goes through.
<whitequark>
on the serious side, I'm still interested. I think it's more 0..+30, somewhat like that
<whitequark>
and the board arrived with one or more of its balls broken
<whitequark>
at least, when you press on the chip, TFT synchro begins to work correctly
<whitequark>
*on the CPU
<whitequark>
on the other hand, the board was laid out by some random student
<whitequark>
and assembled by a greedy idiot who (not a joke) omits a different combination of bypass caps at each next batch
<wolfspraul>
maybe that guy was greedy, or you were stingy in not paying adequately :-)
<whitequark>
that's not my board
<wolfspraul>
whoever paid
<whitequark>
but I've been asked to investigate why it does not work correctly
<whitequark>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I've seen the latter all too often
<wolfspraul>
someone first wanting to pay some ridiculous money, like for an icecream in a park, and then whining around about lousy quality
<whitequark>
they are a "developer kit", not custom ones
<whitequark>
they're cheap, through, it's true
<wolfspraul>
always makes me wonder, but I just smile nowadays and move on
<wolfspraul>
you get what you pay for, right? :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how's germany ? still everything where you left it ?
<wolfspraul>
yes pretty much
<wpwrak>
good ;)
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<whitequark>
wolfspraul: I wonder where you can get a $150 icecream. I get your idea, through :)
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<lars_>
whitequark: there are probably even places where you can even get a 1k$ icecream ;)
<wpwrak>
lars_: got some preferred ice cream parlor in the emirates ?
<lars_>
wpwrak: i'm trying to cut down these days ;)
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<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspra1l: hey, you're in Germany?
<blogic>
DocScrutinizer: his ip would suggest so
<DocScrutinizer>
I stpped looking at IPs, usually you get fooled by them
<blogic>
t-dialin is deutsche telekom
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<wolfspra1l>
yes, IP spies
<kristianpaul>
wow you can still get C1xx phones, amazing
<whitequark>
kristianpaul: that ones with hacked bp?
<DocScrutinizer>
Region Schmelz, next Luxembourg
<whitequark>
kristianpaul: which iirc you can use to take down any gsm cell in a moment
* kristianpaul
dont know nothing about GSM standards
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspra1l: obviously quite a bit away from my location
<DocScrutinizer>
if the IP location services are right
<DocScrutinizer>
I always wonder how this guy manages to earn his momey, jet around all the world, and still find time to do all those amazing things
<DocScrutinizer>
money*
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<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: what do you find good?
<wolfspra1l>
I don't know how to help
<wpwrak>
i find it good that a) they're at the point of being able consider making an actually usable device, and b) that they're not afraid to attack that problem
<wpwrak>
(help) yeah, hard. they still don't have the hw side under their control. mini-USRP anyone ? :)
<wolfspra1l>
the way I read it more is some desperation to avoid slide-into-irrelevance for the baseband software being worked on
<wolfspra1l>
I believe in product focus, so I did the NanoNote and now MIlkymist One
<wolfspra1l>
but... they both don't have RF because we don't have the power to really pull it off into a product
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't call it desperation. it's more closure he seems to seek
<wolfspra1l>
I think the window of opportunity for truly open GSM/3G/LTE stacks has passed, in terms of productization.
<wolfspra1l>
that will remain an academic/security researcher niche.
<wolfspra1l>
and Harald is not accouncing that he got a 10 million USD seed investment from a big venture fund :-) he is just trying to find a way to move some of their sources into products before those products (hardware) totally vanish from the marketplace.
<wpwrak>
which seems fine, considering the focus of the project
<wpwrak>
besides, in some areas, GSM may stay around for a while
<wpwrak>
3G is a question of when the patents will start to expire. but it's also more demanding technology. so it's good to do GSM first.
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<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspra1l: (niche) indeed
<DocScrutinizer>
[2011-12-11 15:47:02] <DocScrutinizer> yeah, we'll celebrate start of mass production of first completely FOSS GSM phone, on the event where last carrier on this planet declares they will switch their last GSM band to LTE now
<DocScrutinizer>
[2011-12-11 15:49:28] <DocScrutinizer> and I will utter a sigh of relief, as one of my nightmares is script kiddies and "young talented android developers" are messing with GSM TX and protocol, to implement bullshit that tears down whole cells
<wolfspra1l>
well
<wolfspra1l>
I am super optimistic about free radio in the future
<wolfspra1l>
and osmocom baseband may play an important role in that
<wolfspra1l>
I just don't thikn the 'catch up to 2g/3g/lte' path works
<wolfspra1l>
I feel a bit ironic in Harald's mail that he first says "Free Software is not just "the hobby project catching up" with
<wolfspra1l>
the vendors of proprietary software."
<wolfspra1l>
and a bare 2 sentences later he goes on with "we have still not managed to even implement the
<DocScrutinizer>
meh, tomorrow I'm going to iron out smaller glitches in LTE firmware again. This train is gone
<wolfspra1l>
most basic GSM feature phone that existed 15 years ago using proprietary
<wolfspra1l>
software. We need to work on closing that gap. We ..."
<wolfspra1l>
huh?
<wolfspra1l>
so it's not about 'catching up', but we need to "close the gap"
<wolfspra1l>
:-)
<wolfspra1l>
so I hope we first get DSP better under control, and I will support kristianpaul's GPS project until that damned thing works :-)
<wolfspra1l>
for Harald's approach, the Cxxx path sounds best
<DocScrutinizer>
tbh I don't see the purpose to get the GSM stack under FOSS control
<wolfspra1l>
so they can continue to bringup the stack
<wolfspra1l>
yeah well
<DocScrutinizer>
as I fail to see reasonable effort to implement FOSS firmware for HDD
<wolfspra1l>
yes there are many blobs
<wolfspra1l>
that's why I think this discussion has a perspective as if we were in the late 90's
<wolfspra1l>
the train has left the station
<DocScrutinizer>
long time ago
<wolfspra1l>
there is a lot of integration between baseband and application cores happening, and will continue to happen
<wolfspra1l>
so in the embedded space it will be hard for FOSS to make any impressive showing
<wolfspra1l>
but it's too late now to break into that, unless someone is willing to bet > 1 billion USD or so on the superiority of a free stack
<DocScrutinizer>
you now got a cpu in each sheet of toilet paper, and I don't give a sh* *cough* about the firmware running on it. For me that'S all blackboxes and who cares if it'S hardwired or firmware driven?
<wolfspra1l>
well, from a foss perspective it becomes nearly impossible to make interesting embedded products
<wolfspra1l>
unless you license proprietary blobs
<wolfspra1l>
the Ubuntu guys are still struggling to find the CD drive on all of this embedded stuff so they can run their installer :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
LOL
<wolfspra1l>
no?
<wolfspra1l>
the other day I read a post from a Mozilla engineer (Firefox) that really made me think
<wolfspra1l>
it was about their inability to optimize the browser for power consumption
<wolfspra1l>
in 2011
<wolfspra1l>
and one of their problems, they realized, was that they didn't know how to measure (!) power consumption on a running phone
<wolfspra1l>
so they asked for help!
<wolfspra1l>
for the record, this is 2011
<wolfspra1l>
if this would have been late 90's, ok, fine.
<wolfspra1l>
but if in the entire Mozilla engineering org they realize only in 2011 that they don't know how to measure power consumption, oh my
<wolfspra1l>
there's something more deeply wrong there
<wolfspra1l>
DocScrutinizer: I think there are some research projects, even gpl, about 3g or lte stacks
<DocScrutinizer>
great, but what's the benefit in the end?
<wolfspra1l>
don't know :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
nowadays modem chips won't take unsigned firmware images to flash anyway
<wolfspra1l>
oh sure the entire ecosystem has completely moved away from open anything, imho
<wolfspra1l>
open is only the stuff that nobody knows how to make money with anymore
<DocScrutinizer>
and I'm all day more interested in a proper open comprehensive API than in a FOSS firmware for a chip I got no access anyway
<wolfspra1l>
if you try to make or use practical products today, that makes sense yes
<DocScrutinizer>
in this respect the Nokia way to specify a industry standard for modem interface is way more promising than any FOSS firmware for the modem
<wolfspra1l>
but I don't feel comfortable investing in chips that are not standardized enough, i.e. available from multiple independent companies, and for 5+ years at least
<wolfspra1l>
that pretty much rules out a lot of the chips you would need to be using
<wolfspra1l>
DocScrutinizer: which standard?
<DocScrutinizer>
err, mompl, need to find the link
<wolfspra1l>
I agree that that can provide the same benefits in terms of openess as digging it all out and 'freeing' things inside.
<wolfspra1l>
(in theory, reading the link now - THANKS!)
<DocScrutinizer>
though it seems the server is down ATM
<wolfspra1l>
so you can make a standard, and hopefully multiple chip vendors make chips following that standard
<wolfspra1l>
not sure what would motivate them though, since so much value nowadays is in 'uniqueness'
<wolfspra1l>
but if the standard is successful in that regard, whatever the motivation, it creates the same end results as a totally open solution imho
<DocScrutinizer>
or you make a FOSS BB firmware that work for exactly one chip
<wolfspra1l>
there would be no point in that unless at least some part of it could be carried forward to other chips later
<wolfspra1l>
(which is always the intention with osmocom as far as I can tell)
<DocScrutinizer>
exactly my point
<wolfspra1l>
so what is practically happening in gsm/3g/lte baseband chips now?
<wolfspra1l>
I think still more integration
<DocScrutinizer>
I can't see much of that happen, such a baseband chip with DSP and all the shit is WAY too complex to port large parts of the while stack
<wolfspra1l>
the AP cores are being merged into the baseband cores
<DocScrutinizer>
esp lower layers
<wolfspra1l>
true?
<wolfspra1l>
you tell me
<wolfspra1l>
you are the 'industry guy', i'm just the foss hippie nowadays :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
I'm an industry newbe
<DocScrutinizer>
:-D
<wolfspra1l>
there was a time when a smartphone necessarily had a separate baseband and AP CPU, but I think now it's moving back to 1 chip
<wolfspra1l>
all cores, dsp, all on one die
<DocScrutinizer>
and even though I got access to *all* the LTE source now, we only deal with interfaces of base system, I.E. talking to the outside world of AP land
<DocScrutinizer>
no real clue about signalling
<wolfspra1l>
and of course everything closed, in fact the companies with the best trajectory now seem to the the ones that are boastful of their high degree of closedness :-)
<DocScrutinizer>
you ever heard of OSE?
<DocScrutinizer>
ENEA OSE
<wolfspra1l>
no
<DocScrutinizer>
google for it ;-D
<wolfspra1l>
since you work for ST-E I start to pay more attention to ste news
<DocScrutinizer>
you'll wonder WTF you never heard of it
<wolfspra1l>
85% engineers!
<wolfspra1l>
biggest customer is Nokia, CEO just ousted
<wolfspra1l>
very European thing it seems
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<DocScrutinizer>
ENEA founded in the early 60s, OSE used on 90+% of BTS and most modems
<DocScrutinizer>
OSE is kinda unixoid
<DocScrutinizer>
but you can't get a single decent manual or whitepaper about the stuff. HELL I hadn't even heard about it 2 weeks ago
<DocScrutinizer>
so much for closed stuff in industry
<wolfspra1l>
yes
<wolfspra1l>
but that's why I said I think it's hard to grow a free part in an ecosystem of closed parts
<DocScrutinizer>
indeed
<wolfspra1l>
if someone establishes a strong open standard for a chip (like the modemapi you pointed out), that may create an environment where free parts can grow
<wolfspra1l>
but I want to see that standard really adopted from several companies, and supported for x years
<DocScrutinizer>
sure
<DocScrutinizer>
that's the idea behind ISI / openmodemapi
<wolfspra1l>
that server seems down, will check later
<wolfspra1l>
great link - thanks a lot!
<DocScrutinizer>
indeed it seems down and you'll also need to register
<DocScrutinizer>
ofono is based on ISI
<DocScrutinizer>
FSO as well ;-D
<DocScrutinizer>
for N900
<wolfspra1l>
sorry what is ISI now?
<wolfspra1l>
openmodemapi = wirelessmodemapi ?
<DocScrutinizer>
err yes, sorry
<DocScrutinizer>
Wireless Modem API G2 V2 11w05.zip is the latest version I got here
<DocScrutinizer>
maybe you can find it elsewhere
<DocScrutinizer>
AIUI the protocol is called ISI
<DocScrutinizer>
and ofono builds on that to provide high level API, similar to FSO
<DocScrutinizer>
basically they set up a bus similar to IP and you talk to clients in the modem which listen on certain "ports"
<DocScrutinizer>
on AP there's a libisi.ko which probably is similar to a TCP/IP stack
<DocScrutinizer>
s/.ko/.so/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer meant: "on AP there's a libisi.so which probably is similar to a TCP/IP stack"
<DocScrutinizer>
the interface is a "NIC"
<DocScrutinizer>
phonet0 Link encap:UNSPEC HWaddr 15-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00-00
<DocScrutinizer>
UP POINTOPOINT RUNNING NOARP MTU:4000 Metric:1
<DocScrutinizer>
on "the other end" you got different endpoints, each implementing a service
<DocScrutinizer>
there are even cdc_phonet kernel drivers in standard desktop linux
<DocScrutinizer>
quite usual procedure is to forward the interface to PC via USB-networking
<wpwrak>
funny. you both realize the extreme closedness of that technology (and that's nothing new), yet you don't see the motivation for open projects to try to get in there
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: "implement bullshit that tears down whole cells". indeed, it'd also be worried that all this closed-source junk collapses when something even marginally unexpected happens :)
<DocScrutinizer>
(btw phonet is the "predecessor" of ofono)
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: indeed, but then you know they'll hand out a new phone to just everybody in no time
<DocScrutinizer>
while when your 13 year old neighbour tries "free phonecalls to his girlfriend next house" all you'll see will be a lot of swearing people out on the streets and 2 days later a "funkpeilwagen" driving by
<DocScrutinizer>
which won't cure the problem
<wpwrak>
you sound like the Deutsche Post in the days when modems first appeared. remember when it was illegal to connector your own modem to the oh so fragile telephone network ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
and i'm sure i must have heard the same argument when it came to TCP/IP and linux ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspra1l: it's up'ed
<DocScrutinizer>
there's a small but significant difference though: RF
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer: you can just jam the whole spectre part
<whitequark>
does that differ a lot from the "fiddle with GSM" situation?
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<jason__>
yo wolfspra1l
<jason__>
hey guys
<jason__>
Im thinking about renting a hong kong fair electronics booth
<wolfspra1l>
ps2chiper: cool, never been there
<wolfspra1l>
who are the people visiting the fair?
<ps2chiper>
Well I only have two products
<ps2chiper>
the hong kong electronics fair paired with the canton fair, make it the largest trade fair in the world
<ps2chiper>
I was wondering if you guys want to share a booth
<wolfspra1l>
I know nothing about the fair. Who is going there?
<ps2chiper>
in generial, people that are sourcing new products new ideas or technical services
<ps2chiper>
wolfspa1l did you fall asleep?
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<wolfspra1l>
ps2chiper: no
<ps2chiper>
Have you ever been to a trade fair before?
<wolfspra1l>
yes
<ps2chiper>
Did you show off qi-hardware?
<wolfspra1l>
no
<ps2chiper>
here is your chance to do it in april
<wolfspra1l>
quite unlikely that I can motivate myself for this. Are you asking me whether I plan to attend? or are you asking me whether I would share some costs with you?
<ps2chiper>
I would like you to share some cost with me, please give it some consideration.
<kristianpaul>
geek fair? :)
<wolfspra1l>
I will most definitely not pay money. Will I pay with my time? probably also not unless I really understand why that would be an exciting thing to do that day :-)
<wolfspra1l>
ps2chiper: definitely not pay, no
<wolfspra1l>
I wouldn't even pay the entrance tickets nowadays. just hold an unconference with the ticket refusal rebels outside, and spend the money on some good wine instead :-)
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<ps2chiper>
I asked you to give it some consideration. I think you are underestimating the hong kong fair. So its your loss, I just wanted to share a booth so there would bemore products to display. But I can see your being short sighted.
<wolfspra1l>
but I should read more about the fair, so that's a good reminder. I'm sure it's big...
<wolfspra1l>
I prefer small quality events with people I know or want to get to know better. plus I rather do something than talk or present. feels so much more productive.
<wolfspra1l>
which products do you plan to show? and what are your expectations into attending?
<ps2chiper>
Maybe this would give a chance to show your products to people that don't already know them. Broaden your customer base.
<ps2chiper>
Im going to show my routers
<wolfspra1l>
have you had success with this show before?
<kristianpaul>
oh floss like routers? !!
<ps2chiper>
I went to the canton fair which was a mistake
<kristianpaul>
ps2chiper: have a link about this rotuers?
<ps2chiper>
the hong kong fair is the place to be for routers
<wolfspra1l>
canton was a mistake, but when I think critically about what I get in HK you immediately call me "short sighted" :-)
<wolfspra1l>
maybe you need a few more mistakes before you reconsider the vision thing :-)
<ps2chiper>
yes, because you blew it off without even investigating it
<wolfspra1l>
nah
<wolfspra1l>
I will read more about it
<wolfspra1l>
first I dont' respond fast enough (because I'm thinking), then I do respond then it's "without investigation". argh :-)
<wolfspra1l>
it's great that you mention it and offer to share a booth!
<wolfspra1l>
that's an honor for us, really. yes, we should team up!
<ps2chiper>
At least I tried and failed, I learned from my previous mistake and have valuable experience from it.
<wolfspra1l>
when you say canton you mean in guangzhou?
<ps2chiper>
yes
<wolfspra1l>
what was the problem there?
<ps2chiper>
that all the people that were buying routers didnt participate in the canton fair. they just left the hong kong fair directly
<ps2chiper>
I did some research from other router companies and found out they stop participating in the canton fair from a few years ago, now everyone just participates in the hong kong fair exclusively. While other companies such as satellite receivers participate in both fairs.
<wolfspra1l>
what I don't understand is why buyers don't go to the SEG market in Shenzhen and treat that as a year-long fair?
<ps2chiper>
because they want oem work
<wolfspra1l>
maybe the buyers like to meet with each other to share experiences and leads?
<ps2chiper>
I went to the canton fair because the factory I work for makes satellite receivers. But I see the router business as the future.
<wolfspra1l>
sure but many of the booths at SEG market are in fact with companies behind them who can do OEM
<ps2chiper>
not for routers
<ps2chiper>
routers are harder to make because the testing machine cost 50k usd
<ps2chiper>
and 1 machine can only test 10k pcs a month
<ps2chiper>
so the investment cost is too great for little electronic factories to undertake
<wolfspra1l>
why are no router companies/booths in SEG?
<ps2chiper>
I just explained the investment is too great
<wolfspra1l>
ok
<ps2chiper>
You need something called an iqflex
<ps2chiper>
from the company iqview
<wolfspra1l>
so at HK you have all the larger OEM/ODM in one place
<ps2chiper>
correct
<ps2chiper>
and this fair is for electronics exclusively
<ps2chiper>
It would be good for you guys, because you can introduce your copyleft products to people that never imagined such things existed. also I am focusing on openwrt routers, so it might be mutually beneficial. but the cost of a 15 meter square booth is 8k usd.
<kristianpaul>
0_o
<ps2chiper>
I could buy a smaller 9 quare meter booth at 4.5k, but I still only have two products
<wolfspra1l>
well like I said the chances that I will do that are close to nil. I want to tell you that first so you don't complain later you spent so much time trying to sell the idea to me :-)
<wolfspra1l>
if someone pays me 10k though I may consider attending :-)
<kristianpaul>
ps2chiper: do you think there are other foss like products in that fair ?
<ps2chiper>
no
<ps2chiper>
Why would I pay you to go to the fair. Its nice enough that I am offering to help you.
<wolfspra1l>
I think when you understand that the chances that I will share the costs with you are almost zero you will stop promoting the idea :-)
<ps2chiper>
no, i will just offer it to your other members
<wolfspra1l>
I think I know roughly why, for very good reasons, people attend the fair. and then I don't see how trying to have a Ben NanoNote or Milkymist One somewhere in a little booth will do any good.
<wolfspra1l>
I am much better off spending that time improving my web presence, or at a much smaller event where Milkymist One can really shine.
<ps2chiper>
What do you think they want to see? i thought you had a lot of inventions on qi-hardware besided the ben and milky
<wolfspra1l>
I think people that go there want to effectively source new Chinese vendors, or keep/improve relationships with existing vendors.
<wolfspra1l>
because if you don't have a fair like that, all you can do is travel in China, which is a big country and instead of 5 minutes from one booth to another, you have to spend 1 day by car/train/airplane from one vendor to another.
<ps2chiper>
well its not just chinese vendors, its open to any company to participate.
<ps2chiper>
and you would be selling your own oem services, not the actual product
<wolfspra1l>
don't know. what is 'oem service'?
<wpwrak>
cheap china crap on demand :)
<wolfspra1l>
the fair will be packed by people and companies that say they can manufacture 'everything'.
<ps2chiper>
your design services, the nanonote is your proof
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: forgot the fancy brand
<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: you'll have a big advantage: you're taller than the rest ;-))
<wolfspra1l>
well I don't know the event, never been there
<wolfspra1l>
maybe we wait for ps2chiper's feedback from the event first :-)
<ps2chiper>
why dont you just watch videos on it
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<wpwrak>
sounds like a good plan. if you're not prepared to fully commit a lot of resources, including time, it's a waste anyway, even if the fair would be perfect (which i also doubt)
<wolfspra1l>
I want to go to smaller electronic music and video art festivals :-)
<wpwrak>
ps2chiper: also, random OEM deals isn't what we're looking for. we already have our own strategy
<ps2chiper>
what is your strategy?
<wpwrak>
build increasingly open hardware, and stay afloat with the products that result from this incremental process
<wolfspra1l>
and find investors for that path :-)
<wolfspra1l>
ps2chiper: wanna invest? :-)
<wpwrak>
what we have now is not yet the level of openness we'd ultimately want
<wpwrak>
staying afloat includes many options :)
<wolfspra1l>
the HK fair may well be interesting, I just don't know enough
<ps2chiper>
I would only invest in copy left routers
<wolfspra1l>
I would probably attend as a visitor first
<wolfspra1l>
and like I said - I *really* prefer doing something over talk and presentations. some of those 'fairs' feel wrong to me.
<ps2chiper>
I don't understand why you cant build copy left products that are sold as retail to compete with name brands.
<lars_>
cause it's boring
<kristianpaul>
compete with name brands is not vert copyleft anyway :)
<ps2chiper>
how is it not copy left if you give away all your sources to the public?
<ps2chiper>
that is my goal
<kristianpaul>
oh sure thats it
<kristianpaul>
but brandy products are not usually whar you can expect from copyleft products
<kristianpaul>
i mean in features
<kristianpaul>
is even diffcult in our own enviorment like most people asking for Wifi, now in afair... image that :)
<ps2chiper>
I dont understand what product you are using an example. but in routers the manufactures omit many features that do not cost more money in manufacturing to raise the value of the product.
<ps2chiper>
My goal is to manufacture the routers with all the features that were omitted and sell them for the same price as standard routers.
<kristianpaul>
had you already achieved that?
<ps2chiper>
partially, I just modified an already existing router. I need to get some customers lined up before I dump all my money into it
<kristianpaul>
ah, thats what the fair is for :)
<ps2chiper>
right
<ps2chiper>
but I only have 2 products right now.
<ps2chiper>
its going to look like an empty display case
<ps2chiper>
hey wolfspraul, is your wife bhuddist or dao?
<ps2chiper>
I went to a bhuddist temple yesterday, but I never got a chance to see a dao one
<kristianpaul>
now i see this i can manufacture everything, wondering how stories end
<wolfspra1l>
we manufacture a copyleft buddha
* kuribas
thinks that for the nanonote to sell, it will need a nice interface.
<kuribas>
I am working on one in my spare time, but I do not promise anything soon.
<wolfspra1l>
you mean a replacement for gmenu2x ?
<kuribas>
No, a nicer GUI, with a statusbar, and some usefull apps.
<kuribas>
a PIM for example.
<wolfspra1l>
yes but it would replace the launcher? your idea is that the Ben boots directly into it?
<kuribas>
yes
<wolfspra1l>
ok nice, that's always great to work on
<kuribas>
I am thinking a system based on the KDrive X server and the enlightenment foundation libraries.
<wolfspra1l>
well, reading that I just lowered my expectations a bit
<wolfspra1l>
(in order to make you surpass my expectations when you have something :-))
<kuribas>
wolfspra1l: Well, do you know an alternative, that is stable enough?
<wolfspra1l>
I haven't looked into it in enough depth, which I'm sure you did by now. so no, I don't know.
<wolfspra1l>
but kdrive & efl sounds like a lot of trouble, and I think you chose them based on some theory/plan you have in your mind, rather than specific coding actions or experiences on the Ben.
<kuribas>
The nokia maemo platform uses this setup.
<wolfspra1l>
have you started coding for or on the Ben already?
<kuribas>
no...
<wolfspra1l>
yeah, so like i said. right now you are motivated by having the perfect plan in your mind.
<kuribas>
I want to have a working WM on my desktop first.
<wolfspra1l>
most likely by the time your plan hits reality, you will just give up on the plan because it cannot be as perfect as you thought it would be :-)
<kuribas>
wolfspra1l: I choose this plan because it gives me the least of work :)
<wolfspra1l>
sometimes you are motivated by a great idea, sometimes you are motivated by seeing something right in front of you. those things are very different.
<wolfspra1l>
well, let's see! :-)
<wolfspra1l>
then fire up your editor, and there you go...
<wolfspra1l>
the plan is already perfect, right?
<wolfspra1l>
kdrive+efl!
<kuribas>
Well, I am reading all the documentation. The EFL documentation, which is quite a lot, and basic X windows programming.
<kuribas>
I might just start modifying an existing WM for my needs, but I'd like to have a good understanding first.
<kuribas>
Like I said, it's isn't going to happen very soon.
<wolfspra1l>
why do you do this?
<kuribas>
Because it's what I'd like to have for myself :-)
<kuribas>
A little linux box, with a PIM, some games, a calculator (gnu octave).
<wolfspra1l>
you mean on the Ben?
<wolfspra1l>
if so - why do you think you need kdrive & efl for that?
<kuribas>
Because I don't like the alternatives, like directFB.
<kuribas>
Besides, I don't think X is so bad. It's gnome and the likes that are bloated.
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