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<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: it will be difficult to practically help him
<wolfspraul>
does he speak chinese? how long is he here? does he just want to buy the slx9 or other things as well?
<wolfspraul>
can he navigate in beijing by himself?
<wolfspraul>
beijing is huge an inefficient, if you are new basically every little thing you want to do outside takes you a full day. after some time (even for Chinese), you can bring it down to "a few hours"
<wolfspraul>
most people will try to stay where they are and let courier services deliver stuff to them :-) but for that you need fluent Chinese to direct people on the phone about what to do...
<wolfspraul>
I can try to help but also a little hesitating to spend a whole day traveling around to help a foreigner buy a 10 USD chip :-)
<kristianpaul>
nope chinesee.. not that i know
<kristianpaul>
he ask me if i need something
<kristianpaul>
i said slx9 ;)
<kristianpaul>
to be honest i dont bet he would do it, but i have to give him the information
<kristianpaul>
dont help i'm betting him :D
<kristianpaul>
he will be another days i think 4
<kristianpaul>
and i guess want buy other stuff out of my concern
<kristianpaul>
huge an inefficient, :-/
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: no please dont help ;)
<wolfspraul>
he can buy the slx9 off-the-shelf in a little booth not more than 100m from a subway exit
<wpwrak>
huge and inefficient, like any well-run bureaucracy :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ;)
<wolfspraul>
BUT... which booth? which subway station and exit. and still need to make it through a gazillion of other confusing signs booths people etc.
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<wolfspraul>
there must be hundreds of places selling those in beijing, but tracking one down specifically requires some knowledge of locality. in china you would just use qq or phone/instant messaging, then track down the source or have them send to you (much easier)
<kristianpaul>
he is bit far looking at the map for chanpeig, beijing..
<wolfspraul>
as I said - everything is far :-)
<wolfspraul>
not just he
<kristianpaul>
he traveld to visit some indutrial parks
<kristianpaul>
jaja
<kristianpaul>
parks may not be right word..
<kristianpaul>
qq :)
<wolfspraul>
maybe inefficient is the wrong word. most people would have stuff delivered to them
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu gave some some data perhaps he could call it if know chinesse..
<wolfspraul>
then you don't care how inefficient it is, because some poor guy will freeze off his fingers delivering the goods to you for 1-2 USD
<kristianpaul>
call the shop!
<kristianpaul>
not xianfgu =)
<wolfspraul>
yes exactly
<wolfspraul>
call, order, deliver
<kristianpaul>
exactly
<wolfspraul>
but - how to pay? how to talk on the phone?
<kristianpaul>
he
<wpwrak>
ah, it's winter over there :)
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<wolfspraul>
chinese can pay from their phone in seconds, but a foreigner without cards/accounts/banks/etc will have trouble with those things
<kristianpaul>
ah good point
<kristianpaul>
hum hum
<kristianpaul>
how do you pay?
<kristianpaul>
phone? ;D
<kristianpaul>
i dont bet :)
<wolfspraul>
I keep myself out of those things
<kristianpaul>
anyway he just wanted to advertise me his recent travel
<wolfspraul>
but ok if I would have to I would set it up, as it's the only way to get things done fast
<kristianpaul>
so i ask for that.. lets see how it results
<kristianpaul>
ha if i could call and speak chinesse ;)
<kristianpaul>
anyway, hi !
<kristianpaul>
did you looked and J1 forth cpu btw?
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wolfspraul>
that was a great pdf link
<kristianpaul>
if you add clock support and bram basically thats the shortest path to a working cpu i guess you tought that time ago :)
<kristianpaul>
great as in...
<wolfspraul>
'look' may be too much though, I just skimp over it and mentally file somewhere
<kristianpaul>
good reading or soemthing else
<kristianpaul>
?
<wolfspraul>
well one by one
<wolfspraul>
I'm working towards the blinking led, right?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
shift register i remember?
<kristianpaul>
this version
<kristianpaul>
next*
<wolfspraul>
blinking led is not using a shift register
<wolfspraul>
but yes, those are missing too, same as tons of other things
<wolfspraul>
I had to do some more groundwork in recent weeks
<wolfspraul>
too bad, but ok, hopefully it will help in the long run
<kristianpaul>
but i will? (shift reg or any other eq counter implementation? )
<wolfspraul>
you mean whether I will support it?
<wolfspraul>
of course, absolutely
<wolfspraul>
I want to support all of the chip's features
<wolfspraul>
and shift registers are quite high on the list
<kristianpaul>
ahmm
<wolfspraul>
but first the basic luts and clocks
<wolfspraul>
then bram, shift regs, jtag, spi, macc
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<kristianpaul>
ok
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: what do you like about the j1 cpu?
<wolfspraul>
any specific plans?
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<kristianpaul>
learn forth ;)
<kristianpaul>
no more plans
<kristianpaul>
i like things with single porpused
<kristianpaul>
well i used to that when programing microcontrollers...
<kristianpaul>
i like the most i dont need a fancy compiler
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<kristianpaul>
is small and simpler
<kristianpaul>
and the closest thing i see you can implement with fpgatools :)
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<wolfspraul>
ok but sounds like you are mostly wishing those things
<wolfspraul>
how can we bring it into reality?
<kristianpaul>
the fpgatools part yes
<wolfspraul>
one thing about forth seems to be that they are quite good at articulating something people may want
<kristianpaul>
the learning part i could, but yes for now is just a wishlit
<wolfspraul>
but where is the actual realization?
<wolfspraul>
"don't need a fancy compiler"
<wolfspraul>
sounds great
<kristianpaul>
haha
<wolfspraul>
but show me something that actually runs
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
maybe then it doesn't sound so great anymore that "you don't need a fancy compiler"?
<wolfspraul>
yes so that all reads well to me, but I want to make it run and do something - not just some fancy words
<kristianpaul>
i know what you mean...
<wolfspraul>
I want a computer that reads my mind and does what I want it to do
<wolfspraul>
then I only need one command "do"
<wolfspraul>
wouldn't that be cool?
<kristianpaul>
jaja
<wolfspraul>
I should write a paper about it...
<wolfspraul>
do!
<wolfspraul>
do!
<wolfspraul>
cool
<wolfspraul>
it's also perfect for kids
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<wolfspraul>
oh wait, kids mostly say "give me" or "I want"
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
okay to much coffe :) got it!
<kristianpaul>
lol
<wolfspraul>
nah I like the paper, but I want to know how to make it work
<wolfspraul>
so let's make it real, and if nothing real I will dump it :-)
<wolfspraul>
coffee yes, back to fpga switches... :-)
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<LunaVorax>
Hi
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<wpwrak>
writing compilers isn't all THAT hard. plus, who cares if it's fancy if it runs on a PC ?
<wpwrak>
(writing compilers) that is, for a reasonably simple language. of course, if you want to beat gcc or llvm, there'll be some work involved
<larsc>
writing _good_ compilers on the other hand is a different story
<wpwrak>
yeah. but a simple one that lets you write code that blinks a led while a button is pressed or such things, and that doesn't have to be particularly efficient, would be quite simple.
<larsc>
I'm currently taking the coursera compiler class, it's quite good imo
<larsc>
need to write the semantic checker tonight
<wpwrak>
wirth's book on compiler design covers one such language quite nicely. i read the pascal-ish one. this seems to be an updated version: http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.ethoberon.ethz.ch/WirthPubl/CBEAll.pdf&sa=U&ei=4HKvUKPRM46F0QHuuICAAg&ved=0CBUQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxDramddD3bwOYKYZmBKDggAp34A
<wpwrak>
with 131 pages it's a refreshing difference from the other tomes usually sized like epic fantasy novels
<wpwrak>
oh, and with yacc at your disposition, you get operator precedence basically for free. yet another one of the scary bits someone else is taking care of for you.
<wpwrak>
i think the old one is "compilerbau". 118 pages :)
<viric>
wpwrak: I also hate them (search results)
<viric>
with a pdf, it gets specially annoying
<viric>
but I think they overcome that with javascript tricks, if you had javascript enabled :)
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<wpwrak>
javascript is on, of course. there's very little that works without it :-(
<GNUtoo-desktop>
wpwrak, maybe use duck duck go then?
<wpwrak>
that's an option, yes
<viric>
ah ok
<viric>
duckduckgo uses bing
<viric>
iirc
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it uses many things
<viric>
use seeks
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it probably uses a combinaison of bing, google, yahoo and its own stuff
<viric>
I'd say it uses bing, and only some times, it gives a special big link of its own cook
* GNUtoo-desktop
doesn't understand why what backend it uses is important
<viric>
I thought wpwrak meant *google*
<viric>
seeks will use google.
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<mth>
wpwrak: how does that work? (yacc doing operator precendence for you)
<mth>
I've always coded compilers by hand, but operator precendence is determined by how you write your grammar, not by how you code it
<mth>
I thought yacc takes something akin to EBNF as input; if so the operator precedence should be already determined in the input
<larsc>
you tell yacc the precendence order and it will take care of it
<mth>
it has a more high-level input format that?
<mth>
s/that/then/
<qi-bot>
mth meant: "it has a more high-level input format then?"
<wpwrak>
larsc: that's the dirty way
<wpwrak>
mth: and yes, what i mean is the grammar
<larsc>
well you use the precendence order to resolve ambiguities in your grammar
<wpwrak>
larsc: you mean in your sloppy grammar :)
<larsc>
keeps the grammar much simpler
<wpwrak>
mth: e.g., a recursive-descent parser can't do proper operator precedence (without adding extra twists)
<mth>
you only need a look ahead of one symbol to be able to do it
<wpwrak>
larsc: you have to think a little harder. but that's often a good thing :)
<larsc>
wpwrak: I need to do the transformations that yacc does for me by hand
<larsc>
mth: the grammar also has to have other certain properties
<wpwrak>
larsc: and by doing this, you purge your grammar from "magic". makes it easier to resolve conflicts you'll run into later.
<larsc>
I belive in magic ;)
<mth>
larsc: yes, but it is implementable with a recursive descent parser with a lookahead of just one, if your grammar satisfies those properties
<larsc>
believe
<wpwrak>
that one's the bad kind :)
<mth>
magic is great if it works, but as soon as it breaks down you'll be wishing you'd be dealing with something simpler
<larsc>
iirc, you use the lookahead to resolve shift-reduce-conflicts
<larsc>
if your grammar does not have any you can also use a parser with 0 lookahead
<mth>
it's been a while since I did compiler theory, but doesn't 0 lookahead put you somewhere on the level of regular expressions?
<mth>
or maybe not even that, just a finite state machine
<larsc>
you have a stack don't you?
<mth>
what does lookahead 0 mean anyway? I guess that once you see the symbol you have to immediately consume it (no peek operation)
<larsc>
iirc with lookahead of one you look at the next terminal symbol and based on that decide how to handle your current symbol
<larsc>
with lookahead of zero you don't look at the next terminal, but just use your current symbol
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<mth>
by that definition you can even do operator precedence with a lookahead of 0
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