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<xiangfu>
wej, what is the minimal pcb-via you have been made at home?
<xiangfu>
one layer is no enough for me. I have to jump to 2 layer soon.
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<wpwrak>
"wej" or "wpwrak" ? :)
<wpwrak>
my small vias have an outer diameter of 30 mil (0.76 mm). i wouldn't make them much smaller, because you run into registration problems otherwise
<wpwrak>
registration = location of layers with respect to each other. e.g., when you make the back layer, it'll be shifted a bit with respect to the font layer
<wpwrak>
s/font/front/
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "registration = location of layers with respect to each other. e.g., when you make the back layer, it'll be shifted a bit with respect to the front layer"
<wpwrak>
with vias that size, the errors are usually small enough - in a DIY process - that there's no problem you couldn't work around.
<wpwrak>
in an industrial process, you have better tolerances. you'd have to ask the fab what minimum via sizes they offer.
<wpwrak>
you also have the choice between etching both sides of the PCB at once or in separate passes
<wpwrak>
both sides at once saves time but yields large registration errors (typically up to about 0.5 mm). that's still fixable.
<wpwrak>
one side at a time is better. there, you can expect almost perfect results (0.1-0.2 mm). but it takes more time.
<xiangfu>
( (0.76 mm)) ok. in my kicad. I send it to 0.6mm
<xiangfu>
("wej" or "wpwrak" ? :)) wpwrak :)
<xiangfu>
the etching was very good on 0.6mm/0.3mm via. the problem is I am not sure I can drill that hole.
<xiangfu>
(one side at a time is better.) yes.
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<wpwrak>
yeah, drilling is messy. i'm VERY happy that my CNC mill does that for me. and it doesn't break drill bits, or almost never :)
<wpwrak>
(one side at a time) what i do is this: i put the toner transfer paper on the table, then i drop the pcb on it, align it, and then fix it with adhesive tape on two sides. that gives very precise positions.
<wpwrak>
of course, my boards from the cnc mill already have exact geometry
<wpwrak>
in your case, you'd drill after the etching. so the first side will be perfect while the second side will be harder.
<wolfspraul>
btw xiangfu is getting really good on a number of steps :-) I think he can solder bgas in his oven as well now
<wolfspraul>
it's too many details so I cannot follow everywhere, but slowly he turns into a little factory :-)
<wolfspraul>
then it's time to outsource, I guess
<wpwrak>
kewl :) i'm still too scared about them. particularly their lack of debuggability.
<wolfspraul>
that's one thing I would still like to do, since all the rest I already did and feel good about
<wolfspraul>
rejon motivated me to buy a 100 USD sewing machine at ikea yesterday
<wolfspraul>
I will take it apart to see how much mechanical and electrical is inside, which will probably make it dysfunctional. oh well.
<wolfspraul>
we had that "let's go to ikea" urge suddenly
<wolfspraul>
interesting to see that ikea has a section now with sewing machine and selling garments etc
<wpwrak>
(make chips) sounds like fun. but i think you're onto something worth following with the fpga analysis.
<wolfspraul>
ah yes, of course
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<wolfspraul>
this project toped (toped.org.uk) has a scripting language 'tell'
<wolfspraul>
the name is all I know about it right now
<wolfspraul>
maybe I can work on a fp2tell utility one day
<wolfspraul>
fp = fpga floorplan
<wolfspraul>
but yes of course, I focus on the fpga and to bring out what is unique about that chip, the programmability etc.
<wolfspraul>
this week I took a rest on fpgatools to cleanup some systems/servers/backup etc.
<wolfspraul>
almost ready to jump back in
<wpwrak>
creative break :)
<wpwrak>
that, and a bottle of wine, often helps to get out of mental loops :)
<wolfspraul>
oh wow, I just notice that one of the two raid1 disks in the new buildhost is faulty and the server is limping along on one leg
<wolfspraul>
good to find that before I move more stuff onto this server, so let's see how hetzner handles it and expect some (hopefully not too much) downtime on this machine...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wolfspraul: downtime? for raid1 recovery? hmm. I'd think there should be better ways depending on hw, and for sure Hetzner should be able to handle a hotswap
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually you migtht (not) notice some reduced performance during sync of the new HDD
<wolfspraul>
well let's see
<wolfspraul>
I am waiting until the last backup finishes, then I file a support ticket :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
how you're doing backup?
<wolfspraul>
yes good question
<wolfspraul>
I went through many iterations
<wolfspraul>
from a plain rsync 'through' the live rootfs
<wolfspraul>
not really recoverable
<wolfspraul>
then smarter ways with flushing and read-locking mysql, then lvm snapshots, then rsyncing those
<wolfspraul>
and now I am trying lxc instead of kvm, and the same mysql-read-lock+lvm snapshot on the entire lxc container including configuration
<wolfspraul>
so theoretically I think I could bring up the system on a new physical machine with a downtime not much more than my uploading time of the rootfs
<wolfspraul>
but then I rarely/never test such recoveries, so it's more like a plan... :-)
<lekernel_>
in other words: you can get research and development funded without having to get thousands of people to understand it and support it directly
<lekernel_>
you wouldn't get, say, the first laser diode funded on something like kickstarter
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand the point
<wolfspraul>
there is no denying that kickstarter works, very well, and moves lots of money
<wolfspraul>
why should you be the judge on which project gets funded? :-)
<wolfspraul>
it's the backers...
<wolfspraul>
banana piano - nice! :-)
<wolfspraul>
and it seems they shipped on time and as promised - awesome
<wpwrak>
lekernel_: i think the main issues of that project are that 1) there are only very few people for whom it would be of immediate practical use, and 2) the number of people just willing to sponsor without expecting any specific return isn't very large
<roh>
things need to be 'shut up and take my money'-concrete .. and you need to really invest money/time into that fscking video ;)
<roh>
so if your idea isnt something obvious and useable to the average viewer.. its hard.
<wpwrak>
that's the deal, yes
<wpwrak>
after all, you're expected to provide a list of items that come out of it. kickstarter also limit the scope of projects, possibly to avoid trying too many new things at once.
<roh>
well.. lets see where circuits.io and similar bring us... i believe in the end one needs a business which works withoit such extreme pr to be successfull in the long run.
<roh>
wpwrak: kickstarter didnt like beer.. and europeans.. so my friend went somewhere else
<roh>
didnt philips just announce and ship something like that?
<roh>
well.. i'll stay away from line voltage projects for now anyhow. too much certification stuff needed for overseas shipping
<lekernel_>
wolfspraul: so if some scientist wanted to invent the laser diode on kickstarter, he'd have to promise $10 laser pointers (and ship dozens of millions of units to make it down to that cost) and stay credible :-)
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<roh>
well.. we stay at producing stuff... got a new machine recently
<roh>
a big cutting plotter... cutting foil up to something like 1800x800mm
<roh>
retrofit hp pen plotter eating hpgl
<wpwrak>
lekernel: you could also offer a honorable mention on the project's web site for a little less :) (and maybe people who check that option can increase the amount they pay. not sure if kicstarter has that - i've been told that idea.me does)
<roh>
i dont think one can fund fundamental physics projects...
<wpwrak>
hmm, try pure mathematics for a proper challenge :)
<wpwrak>
there's a nice joke about applied mathematics. alas, it only works in german: "es gibt die angewandte mathematik und die abgewandte mathematik"
<lekernel>
otoh math research is relatively inexpensive (unless you need supercomputers, and still)
<wpwrak>
if you use computers, it's not pure anymore :)
<roh>
haha
<wolfspraul>
roh: I'm starting my sewing machine learning. bought a 100 USD sewing machine at ikea and will take it apart
<wolfspraul>
interestingly ikea has a new section with a sewing machine and fabric etc.
<wolfspraul>
maybe that thingie has no electronics at all, just electro-mechanical? I shall find out :-)
<wolfspraul>
I mean no microcontroller etc.
<wpwrak>
does it have a display ?
<wolfspraul>
I don't think so (still in the box)
<wolfspraul>
even if there is no serious electronics inside, it's a starting point for me
<wolfspraul>
I rather start with a 100 usd thingie before moving on to more expensive stuff
<wpwrak>
trying to draw your wife into hacking ? :)
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
jon said "ikea is now selling sewing machines" and I said "let's buy one and take apart"
<wolfspraul>
that's about it right now
<wpwrak>
interesting reasoning :)
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<wolfspraul>
roh: do you think circuits.io can get some tracking?
<wolfspraul>
seems they are just starting
<roh>
wolfspraul: i hope so
<roh>
wolfspraul: but i think it needs to grow up a bit... still only simple stuff there as far as i can see
<roh>
i wonder if there is a nicer word than 'tinkering' or 'hacking' for 'buying something readymade and reusing/abusing it by a documented pattern
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<roh>
since the result is then a combination of commercial, usually closed and some opensource technology/design.. maybe it needs its own word ;)
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
agree
<wolfspraul>
not sure highlighting the tech parts is a good idea, but it looks like a very clean project so let's see
<wolfspraul>
I don't need any of that stuff though :-)
<roh>
lekernel: yeah.. just that its more an art than pure science
<roh>
in the end.. its a human who consumes it, not a machine.. so its not only purely scientific facts that count
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<DocScrutinizer05>
lifx-bulb? haha, just seen that one at Conrad, basically
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<DocScrutinizer05>
it seemed to have a 430MHz remote, replacing by WiFi probably is a weekend project
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<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer05: they also want to do full color like meethue.com
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohwell, iPhone reinvented the wheel from beginning, I recall #openmoko laughing about iPhone "new innovative" capabilities like 5 years ago
<DocScrutinizer05>
full color?
<DocScrutinizer05>
like in RGB LED? That's exactly what that conrad lightbulb did, even looked exactly like the lifx one
<wolfspraul>
yes
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<wolfspraul>
the conrad one is maybe from Samsung?
<wolfspraul>
if Phillips has this then Samsung cannot be that far behind I would think, or even Osram? I don't know...
<wolfspraul>
lifx will have a good time learning though, right? now that they got a 1.3m educational budget :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
looked like samsung
<wolfspraul>
I'm happy for them...
<DocScrutinizer05>
though they rebranded it "Conrad"
<DocScrutinizer05>
WTF???? 1.3M for a weekend project????????
<larsc>
well production cost too
<DocScrutinizer05>
dang, for 0.3M I'll find a fsckng iPhone coder monkey. I'll do the swapping of 433MHz RX vs WiFi module on a weekend and have a nice travel to Taiwan for the remaining 1.0M
<larsc>
well and they only wanted 100k anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
silly, 100k might not really last till end of your life
<DocScrutinizer05>
with 1M+ you must be a douchebag to not be able to live from interest
<DocScrutinizer05>
or is that italian lira or NTD or sth?
<wolfspraul>
it's a whole bunch of people and they probably believe the stuff they write on the project page, so they will go fight mighty Samsung/Phillips/Osram etc. now
<wolfspraul>
and "reinvent the lightbulb"
<wolfspraul>
at the end of which the 1.3M will be gone and they will all be a lot wiser :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL, that's a hoax, they even used the original product pictures
<wolfspraul>
more power to them!
<wolfspraul>
yes I know, the use Samsung mechanical stuff which alone would probably cost >1M to pull off :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no need to figt anybody
<lekernel_>
DocScrutinizer05: so just do it, heh? ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems they already did it
<wolfspraul>
anyway they will go reinvent now :-)
<wolfspraul>
hoax or not, let the drama start
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm already thinking of some similarly silly idea
<wolfspraul>
at the very least they owe their backers 'updates' with ever more absurd things that are happening :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh well
<wolfspraul>
at openpandora may favorite was the fedex truck which caught fire!
<wolfspraul>
loaded with a bunch of important openpandora parts and right before delivering them
<wolfspraul>
SO CLOSE!
<DocScrutinizer05>
didn't they offer a real product which donations basically prepaid?
<wolfspraul>
lifx or openpandora? op is still "working" on the original 2008 predorders. with infinite dramas in between since then...
<DocScrutinizer05>
lifx that is
<wolfspraul>
lifx no idea
<wolfspraul>
that's just starting now, a new show
<DocScrutinizer05>
since conrad is asking an incredible 49EUR iirc
<wolfspraul>
the lifx thingies are so expensive they may just resell existing ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
plus rework, you need to charge 150 per unit, to get (and stay) rich
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly it's a fart app for 1.99 then
<DocScrutinizer05>
way less effort to do 'mass production'
<DocScrutinizer05>
bbl, damn med.Doc has 45min til weekend, and I'm short on a prescription
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<viric>
I finally got a raspberry pi thing... they don't have much code in upstream kernel either
<viric>
lekernel: in fact I'm happy with the sheevaplug kind of devices. They had some bad designs (power supplies burning up, requirement of moving mechanical parts, ...), but I think it's a good line.
<viric>
I haven't bought the pi for me; but a 512MB device is very nice, because it can natively build most things. No cross building required.
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<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: maybe something like http://electricimp.com/ is the right thing for such an app
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<viric>
it'd be great if the nanonote could build itself the software it runs
<kristianpaul>
yeap..
<viric>
that can be done 1) changing the nanonote or 2) changing the software ;)
<kristianpaul>
software :-)
<viric>
I've just tested... the raspberry pi runs at half the speed of the sheevaplug.
<viric>
I didn't expect a difference so big.
<kristianpaul>
how is that relate to self boostraping nanonote? i got lost..
<viric>
I'm changing topics.
<kristianpaul>
software boostrasping*
<viric>
Before, I said that the sheevaplug can build its software just fine, with 512MiB of RAM, while the nanonote cannot.
<viric>
I could say something similar for the raspberry pi, if it had all the source for what it runs :)
<kristianpaul>
so basically the problem is ram, cause no matter how slow cpu is it will end someday or week.. ;-)
<kristianpaul>
you could use swap !
<kristianpaul>
i read gentoo for yeeloong was build using 4Gb of swap and several days
<viric>
if something can run prboom, it should be able to build itself :)
<kristianpaul>
haah i ran it. like two years ago
<viric>
kristianpaul: I build NixOS just fine natively, in a fuloong minipc (1GB of RAM)
<kristianpaul>
was a binary hanging on somewhere..
<viric>
kristianpaul: prboom is what I use most in my nanonote :)
<kristianpaul>
viric: and NixOS for nanonote :-) ?
<viric>
NixOS can only be natively built, now.
<viric>
but 'nanonixos' can be cross-built.
<kristianpaul>
can, why?
<viric>
So, there is NixOS for the sheevaplug, for the fuloong, but not for the nanonote.
<viric>
"can, why?"
<kristianpaul>
i mean sounds good, but sounds like an enforcements somwhere..
<viric>
?
<viric>
what sounds good?
<kristianpaul>
can only be natively built
<kristianpaul>
that^
<viric>
no, that sounds bad. :)
<viric>
it'd be better if it could be cross built :)
<kristianpaul>
i dont like cross buitl :P
<viric>
Ah
<kristianpaul>
becus the bootstrap thing..
<kristianpaul>
nut ignore me :-)
<viric>
well, I mean having the possibility. NixOS can't be natively built in the nanonote because it hasn't enough ram.
<kristianpaul>
but*
<viric>
only that.
<kristianpaul>
and why not use swap? whats the deal?
<viric>
well. swap and memory are quite different :)
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<larsc>
use the cloud
<viric>
I hope you understand 'the deal'
<kristianpaul>
i try not thing about it ;)
<viric>
larsc: modprobe cloudmemory mem=4G
<larsc>
excatly
<viric>
:)
<kristianpaul>
:-/
<viric>
or modprobe cloudcpu ncpu=16
<kristianpaul>
ha
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<paul_boddie>
I never really looked at the Dingoo stuff until surfing Wikipedia recently, although I guess that a bunch of people develop for it here. Isn't the Dingoo very similar to the NanoNote in terms of hardware?
<viric>
an ingenic soc
<paul_boddie>
The "hardware evolution" of those products seems to be modest, and perhaps related to the development schedule of the SoC family, but I saw that the A380 has 64GB instead of 32GB RAM.
<paul_boddie>
Has the product that the NanoNote was based on evolved similarly? Did anyone keep track of that?
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: half the price and almost half the power
<DocScrutinizer05>
but actually I meant that one
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<DocScrutinizer05>
64GB *RAM*??
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like a big iron rather than something palmtop
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, googling for A380 will probably yield the right hits ;-P
<larsc>
i guess he meant MB
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
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<paul_boddie>
Oops, was writing a mail talking about disk space and my brain froze on the wrong units. :-)
<paul_boddie>
Yes, 64MB versus 32MB.
<DocScrutinizer05>
friggin bad timing: sailfish announces partnership with ST-E for getting NovaThor, just when I left the company
<DocScrutinizer05>
two months ago I could've looked up all the internals of that Thorium modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
now only a few cloudy memories are left over
<paul_boddie>
I met some of the OpenRISC guys at FSCONS and they're still doing stuff.
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: why did you left?
<DocScrutinizer05>
left?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ST-E?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: left what?
<whitequark>
yeah, ST-E
<DocScrutinizer05>
they had a hard time and set all external contractors free
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually scratch that with 'hard time' since I don't know the reasons
<whitequark>
hm. reminds me how TI got out of mobile.
<larsc>
I was at Ericcson a couple of weeks ago to give a presentation, a day before that they announced that they would let go 10%, in the end only 3 people showed up at the presentation...
<paul_boddie>
I also met some Ericsson people at FSCONS. Hello to them if they're reading!
<wpwrak>
larsc: at least they didn't blame you :)
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