Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<mammoth>
hi everyone. any body knows about bios?
<wpwrak>
ah, wasn't that the part of CP/M that implemented device-specific functions ?
<mammoth>
yes i have been there. thanks. but i need intel based motherborad bios source code
<mammoth>
like the recent core boards
<larsc>
well, I guess you need to talk to intel then
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<wpwrak>
hmm. were intel involved in the making of the BIOSes of CP/M ? that's an interesting question. at the beginning, maybe, while people were using 8080 and 8085. but then, zilog pretty much took over with the Z80.
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<wpwrak>
oh, and is it CP/M 2.x, CP/M 3, or another version ?
<mammoth>
wpwrak I'm trying to find recent bios of intel core based motherboards source code
<mammoth>
so that i can re write coreboot
<wpwrak>
oh, that's a very different kind of BIOS then ! generations later.
<wpwrak>
pity. the old stuff had a certain charm to it ...
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<mammoth>
thanks for your help \m/
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<lindi->
mammoth: note that nowadays there's also the embedded controller that does some tasks
<lindi->
mammoth: bios updates for laptops often also update the code running on the EC
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<mth>
I want to merge the "packages" branch of gmenu2x back into "master"
<mth>
anyone available to test it on the NanoNote after the merge?
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<viric>
does anybody know what's required to do to get long lasting li-ion batteries?
<whitequark>
viric: controlled charge/discharge
<viric>
yep, I imagined so.
<whitequark>
afaik you generally need to keep your discharge current under 10C, and charge it with millivolt precision with a specialized controller
<whitequark>
(10C) that's in the datasheet for your battery
<viric>
is that what notebooks do?
<whitequark>
viric: yeah
<whitequark>
they also have some quite complex circuitry for balancing the cells
<whitequark>
you likely don't need that
<viric>
well I know some people that manually discharge completely and recharge the batteries
<viric>
in notebook
<whitequark>
idiots
<whitequark>
unless the battery is really old
<viric>
I thought the same
<whitequark>
and I'm talking 2002 or so.
<whitequark>
google for "smart battery system"
<viric>
And keeping the battery not charged also destroys it quite quickly
<whitequark>
you can actually hook into the system and reuse notebook batteries
<viric>
(From my experience)
<whitequark>
check out TI's eval kits
<viric>
ahm interesting.
<viric>
I take note.
<whitequark>
I know a guy who did that
<viric>
doesn't li-ion blow up?
<whitequark>
viric: it does
<whitequark>
but you need to torture it quite a bit
<whitequark>
even the most simplistic battery controllers prevent that
<whitequark>
well, not quite. undervoltage is what's they protect from. overvoltage sometimes goes through.
<viric>
ok
<whitequark>
good ones monitor all three: overcurrent, overvoltage and undervoltage
<whitequark>
and they also check for the actual capacity, enforce correct charging cycles, etc.
<viric>
thank you
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<wpwrak>
shouldn't "full discharge" be okay ? i.e., the controller ought to stop the discharge before it reaches damaging levels.
<wpwrak>
all this assuming you don't intend to long-time store the batteries in that state, which they would of course resent
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I guess the problem was in storage
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<wpwrak>
ah, the "let's keep them safe and drain all that dangerous energy before they go in the locker" fallacy :)
<wpwrak>
one big problem with batteries is that each technology has its own set of rules and use instructions often got mixed up. or, in some cases, appear to have gotten mixed up but weren't.
<wpwrak>
e.g., the "give your li-* batteries a full charge before first use" would sound like coming from the NiCd era, but it could also be for the benefit of "smart" battery monitors that determine the battery capacity that way. (the monitors will eventually figure it out even if you don't do this, but they may show an incorrect capacity until then)
<viric>
yes, problem in storage
<viric>
is there any good way to store a battery?
<viric>
li-ion
<wpwrak>
the best way is to avoid storage :) because whatever you do, they will age.
<viric>
aha
<viric>
what about batteries in shops?
<whitequark>
viric: 50% of charge, and then cool it down
<whitequark>
they're generally charged to 50% at the factory.
<wpwrak>
the second best way, is you charge them. i've seen recommendations ranging from completely full, at least half full, to something like a quarter full.
<wpwrak>
and then keep them in a cool place. not sure if fridge is okay or if it's too cold.
<whitequark>
^ that
<whitequark>
I guess you should avoid moisture.
<whitequark>
obviously.
<wpwrak>
;-)
<whitequark>
otherwise, remember that 10 K of temperature translates to 2-4 times slowdown of chemical reactions
<wpwrak>
c'mon. when the fridge light doesn't work, you can use your li-on plus moisture as alternative illumination :)
<wpwrak>
also great for de-icing :)
<whitequark>
i.e. cooling them from 300K to 270K generally slows down self-discharge ~27 times.
<whitequark>
also applies to food, decomposing corpses, etc.
<whitequark>
whatever's in your fridge.
<wpwrak>
so you're saying 0 C is fine for long-term storage ?
<viric>
:)
<larsc>
0K is better ;)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: never said that, through I don't see any immediate problems with 0C
<viric>
Why battery shops don't have fridges, like meat shops?
<whitequark>
viric: you still have to deal with moisture
<wpwrak>
hint: don't keep evidence too long. you should plan to clean out your enemies at least once per year, mid-winter
<viric>
batteries in properly closed boxes
<wpwrak>
viric: fridge = costs money :)
<whitequark>
^ also that
<larsc>
viric: the ammount of power consumed by the fridges is probably more than the power saved
<whitequark>
they don't self-discharge _that_ fast
<viric>
:D
<whitequark>
i guess something like half a year will pass until it's near 0%
<whitequark>
they sell them uicker
<wpwrak>
there's also general aging while in storage. i think this isn't directly related to self-discharge
<whitequark>
*quicker
<viric>
So, nowadays buying a 'new' battery for a very old mobile phone...
<viric>
means low chances of the battery working at all
<viric>
(if it was in some store for years9
<viric>
)
<wpwrak>
viric: you buy a "new" battery made for the old form factor
<whitequark>
viric: exactly
<whitequark>
viric: never been able to find good batteries for nokia 3310
<viric>
wpwrak: aren't 'form factors' just a way to disallow you buying "a new battery made for..." ?
<wpwrak>
and don't plan on adding your old expensive li-ion batteries to the family heirloom, to passed down generation upon generation :)
<viric>
wpwrak: meh.
<wpwrak>
viric: naw, there are many 3rd party battery makers. i think the original makers don't care anymore at that point
<viric>
umh interesting
<viric>
I bought a very cheap battery for a phone...
<wpwrak>
of course, the 3rd party batteries may not be the greatest quality
<viric>
I'd like to see how well it goes.
<wpwrak>
and it seems unlikely that they can sell them very quickly
<viric>
right.
<viric>
it's a dead end
<wpwrak>
but it's your best bet (unless the original maker still sells "good" ones)
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<wpwrak>
i have an old samsung x830 that's now on a 3rd party battery. the original one had a standby time of just some 4-5 hours and talk time < 1 minute.
<wpwrak>
the 3rd party battery, less than a year old, already shows signs of aging, but may be good for another year before it becomes unusable
<viric>
umh that 'old' 'new' battery looks at 50%
<wpwrak>
doesn't sound too bad
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't worry at 50%. the decline can go a lot further.
<wpwrak>
what sucks is if you have a device that needs battery power to make it through some load surges. then even having permanent external power may not be enough for stable operation.
<viric>
we'll see. :)
<viric>
?
<viric>
ah a battery to get big currents?
<wpwrak>
like a phone. it may need more energy than the external source can provide for brief moments. so it relies on the battery to provide that. if your battery is really dead but you don't actually need mobility, that would limit the option of "solving" the battery issue by simply leaving it connected to a charger
<larsc>
my laptop for example limits the cpu speed to 800MHz if no battery is plugged in
<whitequark>
larsc: thinkpad?
<larsc>
yes
<whitequark>
they for sure have some intelligent power handling
<whitequark>
eg a friend's thinkpad had a power failure somewhere in the DVD drive
<whitequark>
guess what, a balloon pops up [that was windows] which informs him that his DVD drive was shut down due to an overcurrent condition
<wpwrak>
nice :)
<wpwrak>
others would have used the more traditional smoke signals
<larsc>
it even makes these decisions based on which power supply is used, if I'd use a 90W power supply instead of a 65W power supply it wouldn't limit the cpu speed
<wpwrak>
that's almost too smart :)
<whitequark>
also they are probably the only vendor with completely correct ACPI tables
<whitequark>
because they went straight to Intel and asked them to write it.
<whitequark>
cost him $$$, of course.
<whitequark>
*them
<whitequark>
I almost wish I bought thinkpad X1 instead of this UX32VD
<wpwrak>
i always thought correct and complete ACPI tables were proven to be impossible, Goedel-style :)
<whitequark>
but the keyboard and touchpad are eww.
<wpwrak>
gotta love the trackpoint, though
<wpwrak>
they're about the last ones that still have that. i can't express in words just how much i hate those touchpads
<whitequark>
i feel the same about trackpoint
<wpwrak>
well, you can disable it if you must :)
<whitequark>
thinkpad would also have some other advantages to justify its cost, 2x of my current notebook
<whitequark>
ie not having to do echo on >/sys/bus/pci/devices/0000:00:14.0/power/control after each wakeup.
<whitequark>
took me several months to figure out
<larsc>
I once had an interesting bios bug where it would always limit the cpu speed whenever the power supply was plugged in, even though the battery was also present. running on battery only was fine though.
<whitequark>
bios bugs are fun for sure :/
<larsc>
it's quite confusing if suddenly everything is running slow and you don't know why
<whitequark>
oh look, several new "update EC firmware" in the bios changelog. if I don't appear again the update went wrong.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-la/ubb-la.c (xfers): instead of waiting for event, use hand-optimized delay loop (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/14b7a9c