<DocScrutinizer05>
If you're interested to contribute resp participate, just ping me
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's interesting stuff to do both on the hardware side and on the kernel/system side
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll see if this might fly or not. after 4 days we have reached ~10% of the required 200 "preorders" at our estimated sweetspot of 700EUR, and >75% of those 200 preorders at lower pricetag, which might change on either end, production price or what customers are finally willing to pay
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: oh this is very interesting
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<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I'm really disappoited in Android lately (you were right! why did I doubt that), so might as well try to migrate to maemo
<whitequark>
or, hm, will it run that tizen/jolla/whatever thing which seems to *finally* begin to surface?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sailfish?
<whitequark>
screw me if I know. was there another rename?
<DocScrutinizer05>
should probably work
<DocScrutinizer05>
the comapny and device is jolla. The OS is sailfish
<whitequark>
ah I see.
<DocScrutinizer05>
or Nemo
<whitequark>
do you think sailfish is routinely usable?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc
<whitequark>
and maemo? phone, GPS, SIP, browser... that's all I need
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly not my fav stuff. Wayland :-/
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, all that works but is closed
<DocScrutinizer05>
browser only the UI is closed, the rendering machine begind is FOSS
<whitequark>
wait, in maemo? closed-source browser? wtf
<whitequark>
or in sailfish?
<DocScrutinizer05>
SIP is based on FOSS telepathy sofiasip plus closed dialer
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: there are alternatives for browsers
<whitequark>
in android I at least have AOSP :/
<whitequark>
this is weird
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can run firefox, or the slower(!) mobile variant, then there's opera, and also a few others I heard
<DocScrutinizer05>
some I know from GTA02 still
<DocScrutinizer05>
GPS well, there are lots of apps *using* GPS, it's via a closed liblocation.so
<DocScrutinizer05>
the apps however are all FOSS
<DocScrutinizer05>
phone is again dialer. closed
<whitequark>
I see
<whitequark>
thanks for the info; I'll definitely look at it closer
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are open alternatives, since in the end you just send a dbus msg to some (closed) daemon to establish the call
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's even AT interface called pnatd
<DocScrutinizer05>
used for BT-tethering and USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
sailfish guy moaned "I wish maemo's ICD2 (internet connection daemon) was FOSS! it's waaaay better than all this networkmanager and whatnot crap"
<DocScrutinizer05>
the problem with maemo is: it doesn't have a bright future (so far. I hope we will change that ;-P )
<whitequark>
yeah, that's why I'm cautious with it
<whitequark>
to be honest I'm surprised jolla survived and delivered anything
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's really old and rock solid
<whitequark>
but it's probably good they did
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, did they deliver anything? apart from some first preview of their sailfish OS
<whitequark>
well, that's at least a bunch of working code :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe, haven't looked at it so far
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway maemo is a proper linux. Android is not, definitely. And sailfish in my book isn't either, with their wayland crap. I know X11 / wayland is unrelated to "real linux", but hey...
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically maemo is a proper debian
<DocScrutinizer05>
sailfish, though they claim they use *only* mainline and FOSS stuff, is kinda yuck
<whitequark>
eh, lack of X11 on my phone is definitely encouraging
<whitequark>
(though I agree with the rest of your point about proper linux)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sailfish even goes systemd :-o
<whitequark>
wait, did I ever say sailfish was good? erase that
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly married with Qtm
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course PA
<whitequark>
full poettering.
<whitequark>
:/
<DocScrutinizer05>
time for breakfast and then a nap
<whitequark>
o/
<DocScrutinizer05>
\o
<wpwrak>
neat. finally dumping the GTA0[12] case :)
<wpwrak>
i guess the hard part will be to make the first ten units. once you have these, you're ready for kickstarter & co.
<whitequark>
perhaps there is not enough hipsters on the project for it to succeed on kickstarter
<wpwrak>
if it doesn't take too long for the prototypes to arrive, they can ride the wave of "alternative" phones
<wpwrak>
that should provide a nice boost, even outside the old communities
<whitequark>
wpwrak: do you think there will be such a wave?
<wpwrak>
also, it should be easy to emphasize anti-spying features. like the transistor the openmoko phones had between battery and GSM :)
<wpwrak>
(wave) some of the projects seem to be doing well. there appears to be a good amount of interest in the firefox os phones, for example
<whitequark>
hmm.
<whitequark>
I'm not sure if firefox os counts as "alternative"
<whitequark>
well, the phones, at least
<wpwrak>
they're kinda halfway where one would want them to be :)
<whitequark>
exactly
<whitequark>
and, ew, javascript.
<wpwrak>
finding a reliable source for n900 cases may be crucial
<wpwrak>
and estimates of how long until that source may dry up. they all eventually do. if someone still has the ability to make new n900 cases, that would be very beneficial.
<wpwrak>
form factor seems quite reasonable, also compared with today's phones
<wpwrak>
well, especially with today's, if we consider that they're happily going towards phablets ... the choice of generation XXL ...
<roh>
hm.. i dont know about you, but i tend not to need a new phone before a new computer and the problems get similar.
<wpwrak>
you buy them in matching pairs ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd happily picked N810 formfactor and case, if a) they were available at all, and b) not so much metal in the case (makes RF a nightmare)
<DocScrutinizer05>
N900 cases are available in original black, gray, white, even gold. I think those Chinese are pretty good in prducing small series of plastic objects
<DocScrutinizer05>
what *might* get nasty are things like digitizer, flex circuit board (with frontcam and ALS and proximity), LCD, GSP et al antennae...
<DocScrutinizer05>
speakers
<DocScrutinizer05>
camera already is a nightmare
<wpwrak>
yeah, there are a lot of little critters in such a phone :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not planning for more than maybe 1000 maximum
<DocScrutinizer05>
even 1000 would already be a dream
<wpwrak>
if you reach 1000, you're also in a better position to plan a larger batch, be it with the same design or something new
<DocScrutinizer05>
cases are probably last thing to run out of stock
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
now pondering a crowdfunding for the prototypes
<DocScrutinizer05>
some venture capital spirit thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
pay 10bucks, get a voucher worth 15. IF we EVER finish the development
<wpwrak>
heh :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know, hw development. You always can run into a buzzbug or worse, even last minute. And when you find out about that SiErr late in development, you're screwed
<wpwrak>
that's the crux with crowdfunding - it's difficult to use for prototype development
<wpwrak>
well, especially kickstarter. others, e.g., indiegogo, are more flexible
<DocScrutinizer05>
luckily we have the "devel board" already
<DocScrutinizer05>
one "nice" problem: we need eMMC but seems we have the interface already eaten by WLAN
<DocScrutinizer05>
deja-vu
<DocScrutinizer05>
otoh in times of 64GB uSD maybe you can forget about eMMC
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then next issue kicks in: PoP MCP are only available with 1GB NAND and max 512MB RAM. Users want(!) 1GB RAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
my alternative proposal: 512MB true RAM plus fast RAMbased "storage" for swap
<DocScrutinizer05>
would think MMC controller might get abused for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nikolaus pondered findin a 1GB RAM-only PoP, ditching the NAND completely
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then, we boot from... errr the only uSD that's available in device?. Not amused
<DocScrutinizer05>
friggin WLAN!
<wpwrak>
only two uSD controllers in the CPU ? that sucks
<wpwrak>
maybe bit-banging MMC would be acceptably fast
<wpwrak>
and yes, i'd boot from uSD. but i think you'd expect me to say that ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I want an OS that's still there when I swap the uSD
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise I could rather use eMMC. Faster
<wpwrak>
i mean two uSD: one "system" (normally stays in place) and one "user" (whatever use pattern the user likes)
<DocScrutinizer05>
on GTA02 uSD been basically useles to swap, since you had no use for huge amounts of data on that device. On N900 I could actually watch movies, and I might take hundreds of them with me on several uSD
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw I already did that: watch movies on TV, linked to N900 via AV
<DocScrutinizer05>
absolutely convenient mini VDR
<DocScrutinizer05>
well player
<wpwrak>
the gta02 uSD is also pretty difficult to access
<roh>
wpwrak: not matching pairs.. but my notebook is from 2008...
<roh>
wpwrak: the phone will easily do another 5 years or so i hope.. and i dont want a n900-like crap.
<wpwrak>
roh: has the hockey puck format grown on you ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: but seen from a 'i still want to own my hardware' point i would rather focus on a notebook than something useless and superflous like a phone.
<roh>
wpwrak: smartphones are waste of time.
<roh>
bad runtime, bad formfactor (bad for the eyes, too small for the fingers, slow usablity)
<wpwrak>
roh, always a reliable source for balanced, unbiased views :)
<roh>
if you really do business you dont hipster around like a kid on steroids. you LET people do phoning.
<roh>
you LET people call your assistant.. etc. you for sure dont try to google while in a conference call..
<wpwrak>
perhaps top-notch CEOs like you don't. us mere mortals, though ...
<roh>
also.. have you ever seen somebody do real work on a tablet or phone? not me. they all use a notebook or fatter computer. why? because for serious work one needs space. in pixels as in power. not half-baked 1ghz arm thingies which are barely good for p0rn
<roh>
wpwrak: ive not seen ANYBODY doing real work on a phone or tablet. they ALL have real computers to do that.
<roh>
dont let yourself be distracted by a magicians joke
<roh>
maybe they use their smartphones a lot. but thats not where productivity comes from.
<roh>
maybe they are a good add-on. but replacing real machines? no. not in sight
<wpwrak>
depends on what you call "real work". for some things, a smartphone can be convenient. depends on the situation and the task.
<roh>
and as long as there is the danger of not getting proper ones anymore at all... i rather focus on what i need instead of 'candy'
<wpwrak>
naw, they're certainly no laptop replacements. that's the ubuntu edge nonsense :)
<roh>
convenient is not practical.
<roh>
wpwrak: ever tried reading mail on a grown ups imap with a smartphone?
<roh>
wpwrak: not possible
<wpwrak>
convenient = you don't have to send an sms to a friend asking to do something on their pc/laptop for you
<roh>
wpwrak: even the ubuntu edge will not replace. much too cheap hardware.
<roh>
wpwrak: maybe it would help removing all the euphemisms and marketing crap from the discussion ;)
<wpwrak>
i've read mail on vt102 terminals. i think a smartphone can keep up with that :)
<larsc>
I e.g. read new on my smartphone while e.g. waiting for the bus, I say that it increases my productivity, since the time would otherwise be lost sitting there idle
<larsc>
read news
<roh>
larsc: wrong. you only become an workoholic. not more productive.
<roh>
larsc: your own brain fools you there
<wpwrak>
reality is just an illusion ;-)
<roh>
happend to me too. more use of media != more productive.
<roh>
currently i only see a rise in idiots on the streets which get run over
<roh>
why? eyes on the phone, ears with headphones.... why are these stupids not in a cab when their time is as valuable to be used that extreme?
<wpwrak>
in any case, it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion if you agree with how people use their phones. unless there are a few hundred clones of you running around :)
<roh>
wpwrak: its not the point. i dont care what some people do. i care about not being able to shop decent hardware anymore because the hype does harm to the whole industry.
<wpwrak>
did you see any get run over ? so far, i only see them meandering on the sidewalk as if drunk ...
<roh>
wpwrak: yes.
<wpwrak>
kewl :)
<roh>
wpwrak: ive seen people die due to stupid.
<roh>
not worth it.
<wpwrak>
poetic justice :)
<roh>
no. i really felt with the poor cabbie
<roh>
who didnt have a chance to break
<roh>
wpwrak: i think it would help to do judge-dredd-justice with phones.
<wpwrak>
yeah, annoying paperwork, i'm sure
<roh>
get caught while driving -> destroy on spot.
<roh>
phone atleast and maybe impound the car for a month
<roh>
same goes for walking blind stupids
<roh>
wpwrak: have you ever run somebody over?
<wpwrak>
naw, i seem to be a poor hunter
<roh>
i have. and its a shitty feeling, even when the cops tell you its not your fault
<roh>
she luckily didnt die.. still a bad memory.
<wpwrak>
ah, tried the rough pickup ? :)
<roh>
nope.. some girl just jumped in front of my bike at night. basically from the sidewalk onto the street. half a meter further there would have been the car lane
<wpwrak>
in the good old days, ladies would drop their handkerchief, for the gentleman to pick up and thus have an excuse for starting a conversation ...
<roh>
a week before somebody was killed at the same spot... car lane.. cab driver (i wasnt there)
<wpwrak>
... but i guess jumping in front of bikes kinda works, too
<roh>
bad idea. the next one i'll sue.
<DocScrutinizer05>
ayy. i wouldn't use my laptop wor the real work to yell an alrm to wake me up or remind me for a appointment
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/wor /for /
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "ayy. i wouldn't use my laptop for the real work to yell an alrm to wake me up or remind me for a appointment"
<cde>
ty, qi-bot
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also wouldn't use my laptop as mp3-player
<DocScrutinizer05>
and for sure I wouldn't use my laptop or fatter computer for taking pictures
<DocScrutinizer05>
though a midi-tower for sure would make for a nice inertial mass
<wpwrak>
espeically when used as mp3 player
<whitequark>
btw larsc, I recall you learning ML
<whitequark>
did you succeed?
<DocScrutinizer05>
using notebook for flashlight might actually work
<DocScrutinizer05>
for GPS and navigation, hmmm I doubt
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then you could argue navigation doesn't increase your productivity anyway. For sure it doesn't increase your creativity
<DocScrutinizer05>
so yeah, probably smartphones ruin our productivity
<DocScrutinizer05>
built by the guy who's using the rt2832 dongles for radio astronomy on that nn-meter dish
<whitequark>
somehow application of these visual programming tools always results in a horrible mess
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah.. sdr isnt anything which is good for saving power ;)
<wpwrak>
which in turn will confirm their prejudices: if it already looks so bad with those "nice" tools, how horrible would it be as non-intuitive source code ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed. Thus I ditched the idea to replace all radios in my new smartphone by two SDR
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: :-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I heard it's a stereo FM receiver that actually works
<DocScrutinizer05>
I didn't get around to properly start it with all LD_PRELOAD errr python_path= nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw for ALSA the opposite effect kicked in. Nobody groked the alsa config files to set up the processing stack, so they moved on to PukeAudio and finally to gst-pipes since PA couldn't do what they needed to get done
<DocScrutinizer05>
plus abominations like ped (policy enforcer daemon)
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: whom are you talking about?
<roh>
and using audio interfaces for sdr is 'kiddieshit'
<DocScrutinizer05>
in first half of my rant: everybody distro maintainers
<DocScrutinizer05>
in second half: Nokia
<DocScrutinizer05>
suuure, I bet you watch your radio program
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
only kiddies use their ears for FM broadcast
<roh>
why use sdr for fm?
<DocScrutinizer05>
why not?
<roh>
waste of power. quality is shit anyhow
<DocScrutinizer05>
or: because I can
<roh>
because you can isnt a reason anymore. its just a bad excuse ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
mhm, and therefore we eliminate audio sink from gnuradio now?
* whitequark
grabs popcorn
<roh>
i really can see one when it comes to flexibility e.g. ... but using sdr to demod stuff you have hardware demods anyhow is just plain stupid. sorry.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I don't have hardware demod for FM-stereo
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: sink no. source never made sense to me.
* cde
likes the name: *simple*_fm_rcv ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2013-08-29 08:37:44] <roh> and using audio interfaces for sdr is 'kiddieshit'
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: sure you have. most mobile phone chipsets have that anyhow.
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: your n900 e.g. should have one.
<DocScrutinizer05>
mine doesn't, at least not in a way I'd consider using
<DocScrutinizer05>
the antenna plug is weird ;-P
<roh>
well.. atleast you need to heat less in winter listening to radio with sdr
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't find the T-connetor between phone, antenna, and amp line-in
<DocScrutinizer05>
also as you just elaborated smartphones reduce productivity
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I dom't dare to use it as FM radio
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: nope. i just elaborated that they do no raise it. major differencre
<DocScrutinizer05>
see, with SDR at least my productivity of heat is decent high level
<roh>
;)
<roh>
dont get me wrong.. i like sdr for research a lot.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I like the idea of a universal tool
<roh>
but using it for normal reception is a major energy waste.. small level but that sums up.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I never listen FM broadcast. sorry
<roh>
me neither.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I however listened to my homematic, at 866MHz
<DocScrutinizer05>
with SDR
<roh>
i'm more interrested in wideband signals.. thus audio in and out usually are of no use in sdr for me
<DocScrutinizer05>
and a wideband scanner / spectrum analyzer is rather handy for making sure you got no little tx bugs in your wall or under your desk
<roh>
hehe... i bet that will get more difficult in the future