DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<kyak> seems quiet in here, so i'll drop in my question (already asked in openwrt)
<kyak> i want to attach an SPI device (it is a NRF24L01+ board) to my wndr3800. It seems there is no SPI port on this router though. Do you have any ideas how this could be done?
<kyak> one possibility would be to use some kind of arduino to talk to spi device and then translate it to netgear via rs232
<kyak> but i'd really like to avoid the arduino-in-the-middle approach and attach the device directly to my router
<kyak> yeah, i thought about atusb first.. But i don't feel that the software support is ready (sorry werner!). Also, i'm not quite sure how to attach atben to MSP430 on the other side
<whitequark> kyak: bitbang it
<whitequark> there's even a bitbang spi driver in linux, you just need to feed it some spare pins and rebuild the kernel
<whitequark> spare gpios.
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<kyak> whitequark: so, use gpios to emulate the spi?
<whitequark> yes
<kyak> ok, this is a good idea
<whitequark> it works surprisingly well... wrt54gl got something like half a megabit this way
<kyak> ah.. that's probably how the sd card mod works on wrt54gl
<wpwrak> kyak: you'd be surprised by how much works with atusb now :)
<whitequark> kyak: exactly
<wpwrak> kyak: we have ping (even both ways !), RPL, mDNS, ...
<wpwrak> and yes, i'd use gpios as well. e.g., atben is all about bit-banging. works pretty well.
<kyak> whitequark: thanks for advice! unless there are other ideas, i will stick to that
<whitequark> o/
<kyak> wpwrak: how hard is it to make atusb work on vanilla 3.10.10? :)
<kyak> wpwrak: i might give it a try.. Also, how hard is it to attach atben to MSP430? I will have to re-write the atben driver?
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<wpwrak> i'd recommend using my kernel: https://github.com/wpwrak/ben-wpan-linux
<wpwrak> attaching atben to a new chip isn't hard. well, depends on what protocol support you want. if your demands are simple, it's quite trivial
<wpwrak> i'd show you the code if projects wasn't down once again ...
<kyak> --)
<wpwrak> (my kernel) 3.11.0-rc1 but should be easy to upgrade
<kyak> i really just want to send a few bytes from remote sensor to my router
<wpwrak> yeah, if you don't care about proper ieee 802.15.4 framing or even 6lowpan, you can keep things VERY simple
<kyak> so no ping, mDNS, IPv6 or other fancy stuff :)
<wpwrak> i used that for my led stick ... which i'd show you, too, if downloads wasn't down as well ...
<viric> the nanonote running linux for workgroups
<kyak> wpwrak: so it is not possible at the moment to just compile atusb as a module and use it with vanilla kernel?
<kyak> do i even need the kernel module for atusb if what i really want is just receiving some data?
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<wpwrak> (module) it may be. but for "serious" use, you also want the 6lowpan fixes. you really really REALLY want them. badly :)
<wpwrak> and no, if you keep things that simple, you don't need to worry about the kernel
<wpwrak> a "five minutes hack" type user-space driver will do nicely. all the ingredients are under ben-wpan/tools/
<kyak> many thanks, i'll have a look
<wpwrak> which i'd ... oh dear, i sound like a broken record
<kyak> you should probably mirror that to github when it comes back online
<wpwrak> where's the big bad wolf when we need him to growl at the servers ?
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<wpwrak> yeah, i've been thinking of migrating all my qi-hw projects ...
<kyak> if it works, i might finally make real use of atusb/atben :)
<wpwrak> actually, i have an up to date local copy of the led stick as well ...
<wpwrak> and the mighty driver is here: https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha/blob/master/fw/rf.c
<wpwrak> you need to provide some sort of spi driver. that system is avr-based, so the driver is pretty simple: https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha/blob/master/fw/spi.c
<wpwrak> (they're not compatible with each other (different SPI API), but it should serve to illustrate the idea)
<wpwrak> the rf driver keeps things simple and uses polling, so there are no interrupts to worry about
<kyak> ok, let me clarify.. once i have the spi over gpio driver working on my router, and i plug in the atusb - what's going to happen? Is fw/rf.c a part of the driver that would handle atusb?
<wpwrak> atusb needs a driver for atusb
<wpwrak> spi would be for atben
<wpwrak> so all the above is the "embedded" side
<kyak> ah ok
<wpwrak> for the pc, use atusb and a user-space tool like this one: https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha/blob/master/tools/ant-cl/ant-cl.c
<wpwrak> it links against ben-wpan/tools/lib/ for the low-level functions (e.g., the libusb-based atusb driver)
<kyak> ok, thanks for the hints!
<unclouded> is there a really simple example of gpio from userspace for the UBB?
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<wpwrak> unclouded: ben-blinkenlights/bbl/ ?
<wpwrak> or. better, use ben-blinkenlights/libubb
<kyak> there is a libubb, which is even packaged for nanonote
<wpwrak> see for example ben-blinkenlights/libubb/ubb.h
<unclouded> cheers! will look in to libubb
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<unclouded> is downloads.qi-hardware.com down at the moment?
<wpwrak> hah, i knew i didn't mention it often enough :)
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<kyak> wpwrak: do you by chance have the pinout of atben at hand, while projects are down?
<kyak> i fear that the hardest part is going to be soldering wires to those tiny contacts :)
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<wpwrak> i'd make an adapter
<wpwrak> i.e., a little PCB with an uSD holder
<kyak> good ide
<kyak> idea
<wpwrak> something like the board you can see here: https://raw.github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/master/doc/evb/e407-odev.jpg
<wpwrak> (or simpler)
<wpwrak> and of course, you don't need any of the active components
<wpwrak> here's another interpretation of the same theme: https://raw.github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/master/doc/evb/wm09-dev9.jpg
<kyak> i'll try to find one of those things
<wpwrak> for the pin assignment, see for example the first two columns in the comment at the beginning of https://github.com/frtos-wpan/freertos/blob/master/FreeRTOS/Demo/E407/platform.h
<wpwrak> (the rest is specific to that board)
<kyak> thanks!
<wpwrak> if you don't want to make your own pcb and can't find a readily available adapter board, you could also just buy an smt holder, glue it to something solid and not conductive (non-copper side of a pcb or such), then solder wires to the holder's pins
<wpwrak> of course, it's nicer if you make your own board. then you can have conveniently large pads, maybe a FET to switch power, a LED to check the polarity of power, etc.
<wpwrak> basically something like this, minus the connector: https://github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/tree/master/dev9
<wpwrak> (or add a connector suitable for your board, if there's something useful to connect to)
<kyak> i don't think i'm ready to make my own boards yet
<kyak> i'll just break something with uSD slot :)
<kyak> or use a uSD-SD adapter
<kyak> it has bigger pads
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<wpwrak> (uSD-SD) that's also an option
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<wpwrak> unclouded: yeah, that looks suitable
<wpwrak> here he his !
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: something ate all the qi-hw servers: at least projects and downloads seem to be down.
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<wpwrak> yeah
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<kyak> that's what i did the other day: http://imgur.com/a/JaLo1
<kyak> a case from old tetris game as a battery holder for msp430 :)
<kyak> i swear, it took me an hour to solder three points
<kyak> this is like a dark craft for me
<kyak> i couldn't solder two wires together.. so i twisted them first, and only then was able to solder
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<whitequark> if you can't get your wires soldered, try sanding them, or put them in acid for a while
<whitequark> I think vinegar works, so would citric
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<whitequark> an oxide layer forms over the metal, and it prevents wetting of the wire by solder
<whitequark> so you can remove it either mechanically or chemically
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<kyak> yea, that's exactly what happened, the tin just wouldn't stay on a wire (but rather fall down or stay on my soldering iron)
<kyak> whitequark: how to make the tin stick better to the pads of SD card? Should i use vinegar?
<whitequark> kyak: I'd just take a screwdriver and scrub them for a while, to make some shiny traces on the pads
<whitequark> also I'd use a thin teflon-coated stranded wire and pre-tin it. then, I'd place the wire over the pad and heat it with the iron (not the pad directly)
<whitequark> this way I'd try to avoid melting the plastic parts
<whitequark> it can be tricky and depend on the iron t°, but you can get quite good results with some practice
<whitequark> hm, interesting
<unclouded> hey thanks wolfspraul, servers seem up now
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<kyak> whitequark: okay, thanks!
<viric> kyak: those golden pads can be cleaned very well with a pencil rubber
<viric> a pencil eraser
<viric> it works very well
<viric> (it depends on how do you have them layed out, whether you can use a pencil eraser :)
<viric> but I mean pads not for soldering, but for contact.
<whitequark> ^
<kyak> viric: using a pencil rubber might be tricky, because there are plastic delimiters between those pads
<kyak> i'll try it though, thanks
<wpwrak> the sd card probably has gold-plated contacts. they don't oxidize :)
<wpwrak> whee ! full serv(er)ice has been restored :) thanks, wolfspraul !!
<wpwrak> kyak: your main enemy should be grease. you can dissolve it with alcohol. then just wipe it off with a paper towel. don't use overly aggressive chemicals, e.g., already acetone would attack the plastic
<wpwrak> copper wires, on the other hand, benefit greatly from tinning. if they're already tinned, they're good for a few years, but will eventually get hard to solder, too. there, abrasive techniques are suitable.
<wpwrak> one thing to keep in mind: if the amount of metal being soldered is large, a lot of heat gets sucked into it. so a thick cable can be quite a pain to solder.
<wpwrak> another thing to keep in mind is that you need flux. if you have a flux pen or such, that's ideal
<wpwrak> else, the solder (tin) usually also contains flux. to use it properly, you need to "feed" the solder to the solder joint. make sure both parts being soldered are heated. if one is "cold", the solder joint will be fragile (if you manage to get a solder joint at all)
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<viric> kyak: what do you use that red box for?
<unclouded> one more blinky LED via UBB! http://amadeus.dist.ro/tmp/NanoNote-UBB.jpg
<unclouded> libubb was easier to use than I expected. thanks for that
<wpwrak> whee ! :) congratulations !
<kyak> despite of all your advice guys, i managed to fuck up the adapter
<kyak> it's in trash now
<kyak> viric: the red box is a case from an old game. It now contains msp430 launchpad board
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<kyak> i needed it for batteries
<wpwrak> that needs talent ;) how did you do it ?
<viric> what do you use the board for?
<kyak> wpwrak: i soldered the first contact quite easily and good, and thought it would be an easy walk. When i finished soldering all 6 contacts, two of them immediately fall off, and then other two fall off as i touched them a little bit
<kyak> then some tin was left on the pads, and that was bad
<kyak> i had to heat it, and the plastic melted a bit.. i also had to use more tin, and the whole thing became messy
<kyak> a then got angry and ripped off the wires and crashed the adapter
<kyak> viric: the plan is to attach a sensor to the board and make the reading available in my home network
<viric> 'make the reading available' What does that mean?
<viric> I still don't get it, sorry :)
<wpwrak> hmm, if tin is on the pads, that's usually a good start. you can actually do that: pre-tin the pads as well. then you only need to make tin join tin, which is easy
<wpwrak> but yes, soldering such an adapter ought to be tricky because you have not very heat-tolerant plastic there
<larsc> using flux makes things also easier
<wpwrak> i was just about to suggest that ;-)
<wpwrak> most soldering problems can be solved with: 1) more flux, 2) more heat, 3) less solder. (note: not all may apply at the same time)
<larsc> 4) loud cursing ;)
<kyak> viric: i mean, sending sensor readings (indication) to my router/server to visualize it
<kyak> so i need flux then
<kyak> i only had tin and colophony
<wpwrak> ironically, it's sometimes easy to overheat things if you use too little heat: if the soldering iron is at a temperature that is barely sufficient, you have to heat the contact for a long time before it is hot enough. that means that the heat has a lot of time to flow into adjacent things, traces, chips, PCB, plastic, and possibly do damage there.
<wpwrak> in such cases, you're much better off setting the iron to a high temperature and going in quickly
<viric> ahh
<viric> I never understood how flux works
<viric> wpwrak: yes, this happens. well pointed
<kyak> i wonder if there are soldering courses.. i might as well take a couple of lessons
<wpwrak> flux does several things: 1) it's an acid (i think) that removes oxides. 2) it reduces the surface tension of the tin.
<kyak> yes, the tin always want to be a ball and doesn't want to stick
<viric> btw, I've a device with a broken ethernet RX
<viric> TX works fine
<viric> I changed the ethernet filter (the coils), and it still does the same.
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<viric> any guess from your wisdom?
<viric> wpwrak: but doesn't flux make it more difficult to heat? evaporating
<viric> kyak: that can happen because the tin 'ball' surface can get dirty, or with oxide. all oxide goes to the surface.
<viric> then the 'ball' surface doesn't stick anywhere.
<viric> that's why it can be better to drop that ball away, and start again with more tin
<viric> although likely your tin source has some oxide, so flux will really help
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<viric> кислота есть окисление (кислорота). трудно.
<wpwrak> kyak: you get balls if 1) the contact(s) is/are not hot enough -> make sure the iron touches the/both contact(s). put a small drop of tin on the tip of the iron to ease the thermal transfer. of the tip is "dry", it's almost impossible to transfer heat with it. 2) if contact(s) is/are covered by oxides. -> clean and/or use flux 3) if the surface tension is too high -> add flux
<wpwrak> viric: (drop the ball) yeah, that's what i meant with "less solder". you put it more clearly :)
<kyak> sounds like flux can fix lots of things :) but it probably won't fix the curvature of my hands
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<viric> cъедает
<viric> wpwrak: what you call surface tension, isn't it *oxid* over the hot tin ball?
<wpwrak> basically, if you have a problem spot, don't try to force it for too long. that will only cause more problems (e.g., at some point, plastics will melt and traces will separate from the board)
<viric> I think that the hotter tin or any metal is, the quicker it oxides
<kyak> wpwrak: can you have a look if this adapter would work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breakout-Board-for-microSD-Transflash-/120966864747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2a2fdf6b I only see 7 pins, no DAT2 and DAT3. No even sure where CMD and CLK are
<wpwrak> better to clean up, remove excess solder (e.g., with a soldering wick or by just scooping it up with the soldering iron), maybe wash off burnt flux (with alcohol), then try again from a clean state
<kyak> 'make clean'
<wpwrak> viric: (surface tension) surface tension is what makes liquids form balls. also works with water. that's why we have rain and not just fog :)
<wpwrak> aye ;-)
<viric> another trick to get less oxide on the solder tip, is to leave tin on it when you unplug it from power. then tin will rust, not the tip.
<viric> wpwrak: I know, but why the ball doesn't melt with anything else... it can be because it has oxid around it
<wpwrak> usually it's the "anything else" that has the oxide
<viric> ok
<viric> In my picture, hot tin also gets oxided, if hot for long.
<cde> be careful of oxidising flux too
<viric> be careful of not lighting alcohol too.
<wpwrak> melting the ball should pretty much eliminate any contaminations of the tin. i mean, they may still be there, but a liquid mixes in three dimensions while surface contaminations/oxides are very thin. so they just disappear in the drop.
<viric> wpwrak: ok
<wpwrak> not sure about tin oxidation. what does happen, though, is that all the flux in your tin evaporates. and then you'll have a bitch of a time doing anything with it. that's one of the reasons why "old" tin balls are better removed.
<wpwrak> you could still "make them work" by adding more flux, but you'll be working with an unfavourable volume mixture then, making things only harder
<wpwrak> cde: there we come to the point of cleaning up afterwards ;-)
<viric> I agree
<viric> then there is the Pb too. All is easier with Pb
<viric> (in the tin mixture)
<wpwrak> flux remains aggressive also when cold, just less so than when hot. so it should be removed after soldering is done. else, it may eat into traces, pins, etc., and eventually destroy the circuit.
<viric> свинец
<wpwrak> also, flux can be a weak conductor, especially when there's a bit of humidity. conductive enough to, say, defeat a weak pull-up on a reset line ...
<viric> wpwrak: ah really? removed with alcohol?
<viric> wpwrak: in fact I remember you wrote something with LaTeX about soldering and more.
<viric> or was it aboud making circuit boards at home?
<wpwrak> the cleaning method depends a bit on the type of flux. there are special solvents for flux that work quite well. you can also use hot water and alcohol, applied repeatedly. or take the easy approach and get an ultrasound bath. that removes all that dirt remarkably well.
<wpwrak> making circuits at home. pcb, soldering, even testing
<wpwrak> it's a bit dated, though. i now do things a bit differently
<viric> ok
<viric> it was a very good idea to write a document about that
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<wpwrak> now i: 1) use a different acid (HCl + H2O2 - cheaper, cleaner, quicker, easier. drawback: releases Cl2, so don't store it near metal)
<wpwrak> 2) don't "bathe" contacts in solder, especially not SSOP or such. rather, i "paint" the solder over pin and pad. that's usually enough and is a lot quicker and safer.
<wpwrak> the approach with solder wick and such is now reserved for problem spots.
<viric> what happens with metal?
<wpwrak> it corrodes. FAST ;-)
<wpwrak> not fast enough that you could watch, but if you, say, keep something that releases chloride in an enclosed space, let's say a storage cabinet, you may find after maybe half a year that the metal hinges of that cabinet have been largely converted to rust
<wpwrak> e.g., i kept a bottle of HCl (muriatic acid) under the kitchen sink. small quantities of Cl escaped. now the hinges don't look so pretty (they still work, though) ... and the HCl has now been banished to a box on the terrace
<wpwrak> i also have an improved method for aligning the transfer paper with the pcb, but that's mainly needed because i now cut and drill (with a CNC mill) my boards before etching
<wpwrak> the improved alignment works by doing one side at a time. so instead of 1) rough cut of board, 2) transfer toner, 3) etch both sides, 4) fine cut board, it's now
<wpwrak> 1) precision-cut board, 2) transfer toner, 3) etch, and optionally: 4) transfer toner to the other side, 5) etch other side.
<wpwrak> e.g., for things like atben and atusb, i uses that, because things have fairly tight tolerances
<wpwrak> board with larger components still allow both sides to be done at the same time. well, unless i have a day of dual left-handedness, in which case i'd fall back to doing them one at a time
<wpwrak> and i can only recommend the purchase of an ultrasonic cleaner. they're not every expensive, the cheap chinese ones are around USD 100 (plus taxes etc.). the general rule is that the lower the power/volume ratio, the better. and volume doesn't have to be large - just enough room for a pcb.
<wpwrak> low power is better because there's a risk of hitting a resonant frequency, especially in a bonding wire. the less power, the less risk of that leading to damage.
<wpwrak> the "professional" models for electronics cleaning have a variable frequency (sweep) to avoid that sort of problem, but that makes them more expensive
<wpwrak> ultrasonic cleaners are often used for dental cleaning and for fuel injectors. so that's where you find the mass-market variants.
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<kyak> wpwrak: can you have a look if this adapter would work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breakout-Board-for-microSD-Transflash-/120966864747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2a2fdf6b I only see 7 pins, no DAT2 and DAT3. No even sure where CMD and CLK are
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<wpwrak> kyak: looks suspicious. only 7 instead of 8 contacts, and one may just be the card detect switch, so you miss 6 signals.
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<kyak> wpwrak: requires soldering, but thanks :)
<viric> the verb 'breakout', exactly... what does it mean?
<wpwrak> kyak: you need to overcome your fear :-)
<wpwrak> viric: in this context, basically "branch out". e.g., you branch out (otherwise inaccessible) signal paths of a circuit
<viric> ahh
<viric> 'break' sounded dangerous to me
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<kyak> breakout boards sometimes refer to as terminal boards
<viric> and 'launchpad'? what is that launchpad?
<viric> is it just a proper name of a board?
<kyak> there are several launchpads by TI.. the one i'm referring to is MSP430 LaunchPad, see http://www.ti.com/ww/en/launchpad/overview_head.html
<wpwrak> launchpad is the area from which you launch a rocket
<viric> ok, a product naem
<viric> name
<kyak> "high quanlity" search query on ebay reveals quite a few results! :)
<wpwrak> in pre-technological times, the poetically inclined may have used "fount", "fountain", "source", "dawn", etc.
<viric> ahh
<wpwrak> kyak: as a general rule, the more attributes in the name, the less likely it has any of them :)
<kyak> (this one has "USA Welcome" in it's name, wtf) --)
<wpwrak> that also works for countries. e.g., i'd stay away from anything that calls itself a "democratic people's republic" or similar
<wpwrak> (flux) no clue :)
<kyak> i guess flux is a flux, so i'll just get the first cheapest
<wpwrak> normal attributes are: "rosin", "water soluble", "no clean"
<wpwrak> and no, not all fluxes are created equal
<viric> kyak: why do you buy that through internet?
<wpwrak> rosin is resin, the sticky stuff that comes out of trees
<wpwrak> it's a) good for surface tension/cleaning, b) good for "sticking" SMT components to their pads, c) messy to work with, d) a nightmare to clean.
<kyak> viric: cause i'm going to buy other stuff anyway.. like microsd adapter, and probably that wireless board as well (2 pcs cost 2$, it's nothing)
<kyak> some wires maybe, and sensors
<viric> ok
<viric> a wireless board for $2?
<wpwrak> water soluble is: a) good for surface tension/cleaning, b) borderline for "sticking", c) only a little messy, d) cleanable with some effort (repeated water/alcohol sessions, specialized remover (solvent), or just use an ultrasonic cleaner)
<viric> ah, not wifi
<kyak> nope :)
<wpwrak> "no clean" is, at least the one i have: a) poor as a flux (didn't analyze the problems in depth, but soldering in noticeable harder with it than with the others), b) useless for "sticking", c) almost imperceptible, d) nominally doesn't require cleaning. if you want to clean up, the process would be the same as for "water soluble".
<kyak> wpwrak: is it required to clean up the flux?
<wpwrak> i normally use "water soluble". btw, the name refers to cleaning with hot pressurized water. you can't just wash the flux off with tap water.
<wpwrak> for rosin an water soluble, it's strongly advised
<kyak> i translate "use "no clean
<kyak> i translate "use "no clean" for home"
<kyak> where do i get an ultrasonic cleaner or hot pressurized water at home?...
<wpwrak> besides, if your board is complex, burnt flux makes it hard to see small details, so you want to clean the board from time to time even while making it. e.g., once after tinning, then after soldering (before testing), and a last time after you've debugged it.
<wpwrak> ebay -> ultrasonic cleaner :)
<wpwrak> hot pressurized water: you don't ;-) your dishwasher would have how water but only mildly pressurized, but it's also full of salts that would have a feast with your fragile circuit
<wpwrak> "no clean" has the worst soldering performance. at least the one i have. (i mention this because the soldering performance is really bad)
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<kyak> nah, i'm not getting an ultrasonic cleaner just to clean up some soldering joints i make once a year.. Besides, there were no ultrasonic cleaners 30 years, people somehow managed to solder?
<wpwrak> the others are good. but rosin (that's your colophony) is messy
<kyak> wait a second
<kyak> colophony is a flux?
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<wpwrak> i described it already twice: rinse under hot water while brushing, then apply alcohol, rinse again, etc., until it's clean enough for your taste. you can use a flux remover to accelerate the process
<kyak> if it is, how do i use it? i just put a soldering tip there every now and then, but i don't really know why
<wpwrak> weellll .... in what form does it come ?
<wpwrak> flux can be liquid, a gel, like shoe cream, etc.
<kyak> this form :)
<wpwrak> cristalline ?
<wpwrak> wow. didn't know it could do that ;-)
<kyak> yes, it is
<wpwrak> i use a flux pen. that's like a felt pen / marker and dispenses liquid flux
<kyak> it starts boiling when i put tip in there
<kyak> and evaporates
<wpwrak> you can also use a gel. a bit more messy because it contains more solids.
<wpwrak> you want to be able to apply the flux to the parts you're about to solder, before soldering
<kyak> this probably explains why the first joint went so well
<kyak> i applied rosin there, because i was waiting for soldering iron to heat and was bored
<kyak> so i was sticking it into the rosin, since it has much lower melting temperature
<wpwrak> (first joint) mystery solved :)
<wpwrak> cause and effect still prevail ;-)
<kyak> i will get myself another uSD-SD adapter
<kyak> and relaxants
<kyak> there is tin which already has colophony inside. Is it good?
<kyak> (this is not my case, but i know such thing exists)
<wpwrak> it helps. but it's better if you can add flux independently.
<wpwrak> to use tin with flux inside, you have to a) joint the two parts, b) heat them (both), c) feed the solder
<wpwrak> s/joint/join/
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "to use tin with flux inside, you have to a) join the two parts, b) heat them (both), c) feed the solder"
<wpwrak> that is, to use tin with flux inside, without using separate flux
<kyak> ok..
<wpwrak> if you have separate flux, it matters much less whether your solder also contains flux. though i'm a bit surprised you can actually easily find solder that has none ;-)
<kyak> somehow i found it :)
<wpwrak> if you move towards SMT, feeding the solder to the hot joint becomes impractical because you need only a tiny amount of solder. so you put a small drop of solder on the tip of the iron and apply that to the joint. but for this to work, the flux must already be there, since the flux in the solder will have evaporated by the time you're there.
<wpwrak> please don't tell me you got plumbing solder ;-) is your solder a wire of about 1 mm diameter or less ?
<wpwrak> or is it a 1 cm wide bar ?
<kyak> it'ssomething like this: http://www.chipdip.ru/product0/9000172909/
<kyak> what is plumbing solder?
<wpwrak> 1.5-3.0 mm ... heavy duty solder ;-)
<kyak> yeah, mine is 1.5 mm
<wpwrak> you want proper electronics solder. with such a thick wire, it's already hard to get a small enough drop.
<wpwrak> care to share a picture of your soldering iron ? i'm kinda curious what sort of monstrosity you use for that ...
<wpwrak> (maybe some flamethrower the germans left in ww2 ? :)
<kyak> --) wait a sec
<kyak> for solder, should i search for a thiner wire?
<kyak> it seems that 1mm is the thinest
<wpwrak> the thinner the better. the one i get from local electronics shops is 0.7 mm
<wpwrak> that's the one i use most of the time
<wpwrak> i also have some 0.5 mm solder. that's pretty thin.
<wpwrak> (what matters is the square of the diameter, so if 0.7 mm is "1", with 0.5 mm, I get half the amount of tin per distance
<wpwrak> with 1 mm would be "2". 1.5 mm is "4" ...
<kyak> right..
<wpwrak> so with your thick wire, you have to be four times more precise than i have to be with my 0.7 mm wire. well, it doesn't exactly work like that, but it means that you'll have more trouble with dosage than i do
<wpwrak> especially when feeding solder to a joint
<wpwrak> (as oppose to getting a small drop on the tip of the iron)
<wpwrak> urgh
<wpwrak> the tip seems reasonable. but the pistol grip is really inconvenient for precision work. what you want it a pencil-shaped iron.
<kyak> yeah, i don't use the handle like you hold a pistol.. i kinda hold it by it's horizontal part
<kyak> not very convenient
<wpwrak> exactly. something like this would be a lot more convenient: http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/253.html
<wpwrak> but i'd spend a bit more money and get something like this: http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/lf369D.html
<kyak> look too pro :)
<wpwrak> temperature control is useful if you have different sizes of things. e.g., for small things, about 270 C is great (on my station. the numbers may differ on other equipment)
<wpwrak> USD 50 for the station. about twice what a fixed-temperature iron costs
<wpwrak> you can probably find cheaper ones, too. xytronic are pretty good, though.
<kyak> so i need a new everything :)
<wpwrak> if soldering connectors with a lot of metal, i increase the temperature to 370 C. that way, the connector can suck up heat and the iron is still hot
<wpwrak> also, when tinning boards, i set the iron to 370 C, because i want to be able to move it quickly, to avoid overheating the "glue" under the traces
<wpwrak> yeah, you need to get yourself some decent equipment
<wpwrak> it's not that expensive. for about USD 100, you should be able to put together a pretty decent starter kit
<kyak> i'll just finish this particular project with a pistol solder, and see if i still have an urge to do anything myself
<wpwrak> you'll also want small tweezers. like these: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/ts--15-tweezers.html
<kyak> yeah, i really lack those...
<wpwrak> and the pk-3001 model, for thinner wires
<kyak> doing it with a knife right now :)
<wpwrak> they work great. much better than these critters: http://www.electronicum.at/preisliste/BILDER/1560-Abisolierzange-506.jpg
<wpwrak> knife is okay but requires more skill. also has a much higher risk of cutting into the wire, damaging it
<wpwrak> these are also very nice: http://www.lotos.si/en-us/shop/item/2630400000102
<wpwrak> (i mean the specific model) they're very precise and well-built
<wpwrak> these are some of the essential tools. with proper tools, you'll be surprised how easy things are :)
<larsc> I think I have the second xytronic at the office, I can confirm that it works nicely
<wpwrak> (finish with pistol) you have it backwards ;-) we already know that your tools are not good, so you can save yourself the frustration and get better ones
<kyak> ok, thanks for advice!
<kyak> tools are very important, no argue here. And the same applies everywhere, not just DIYing
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<wpwrak> yeah, the more expensive the failures, the more certain you want to be your tools won't let you down :)
* paul_boddie just saw there was a soldering tutorial in progress. :-)
<wpwrak> heh :)
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<paul_boddie> I sympathise again with kyak and the trials of soldering.
<paul_boddie> But I found that 60/40 tin/lead solder made a difference with my iron.
<paul_boddie> I still made a few solder balls, but it was a lot less frustrating than last time, but still frustrating. ;-)
<paul_boddie> I read a review of the lead-free solder stating that it was "impossible" for soldering electronics.
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<wpwrak> naw, it's far from impossible. but it adds a challenge :)
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<kyak> heh, seriously? 220 Volt Power Option makes Xytronic LF-369D $21 more expensive
<kyak> as compared to a base 110 Volt
<paul_boddie> For some irons it can be a real challenge. I think that some vendors sell irons assuming that people will use them with tin/lead solder.
<kyak> also i can't really find xytronic in russia.. and shipping is more expensive than the iron
<kyak> will look for something else
<wpwrak> paul_boddie: it's all a question of temperature. of course, with a fixed-temperature iron you'll more easily encounter a situation where it doesn't do what you want
<wpwrak> kyak: a lot of chinese devices get rebranded. so you can often simply compare the picture. in many cases, devices that look the same really are the same
<paul_boddie> Indeed. My feeling is that various "popular electronics hobby" vendors think that everyone is singing from their songbook.
<wpwrak> also, since the one you start with is already low-cost, there's not so much risk of the "clones" being flawed copies
<wpwrak> paul_boddie: just avoid the fixed-temperature irons :) better equipment isn't all that hard to find and only costs a little more
<kyak> ok :)
<wpwrak> at some point, you also have to ask yourself if saving USD 20 is really worth days of suffering because things just don't want to work (plus the value of all the components you destroy in the process)
<wpwrak> kyak: don't you have any city with some electronics shops where you live ?
<paul_boddie> I think the problem is that people don't always know what they want when they start out.
<wpwrak> kyak: all those things are really basic. they shouldn't be *that* hard to find
<paul_boddie> So they go along with advice about these things where the people giving the advice makes a lot of assumptions.
<wpwrak> paul_boddie: yeah, that's a bit of a problem. often, the "entry level" (= cheap) stuff just doesn't cut it. not only in electronics.
<kyak> wpwrak: there is a lot of stuff. it's just that i don't really know what to choose
<wpwrak> kyak: well, you know have a shopping list and some decision criteria :)
<paul_boddie> So, people say "this iron is great - it's all you need", but they don't mention that they only consider it usable with tin/lead solder.
<paul_boddie> Because that's all they use. They don't consider that many people may only see the lead-free stuff.
<kyak> wpwrak: that's basically how i filter it now :)
<paul_boddie> As for cities with electronics shops, I was surprised to see soldering stuff resurface where I live.
<wpwrak> leaded should still be rather common for DIY, even in europe, shouldn't it ?
<paul_boddie> For a while I thought we'd made a complete transition to a hipster economy and there was no more electronics soldering kit to be bought.
<paul_boddie> But I think the supply chain was just being flushed. That's when I noticed the tin/lead stuff which I hadn't seen before.
<paul_boddie> wpwrak: Depends on what you mean by DIY. I'm not sure they recommend it for plumbing. ;-)
<wpwrak> electronics :)
<wpwrak> i actually wonder if lead pipes are really THAT dangerous. and i very much doubt the tiny amount of lead that can get sucked out of solder joints could possibly be much of a problem. well, unless you believe rather strongly in homoeopathy :)
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<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: could you finally take (and provide) some snapshots of the GTA03 prototypes? I think the "company confidential" meanwhile expired.
<DocScrutinizer05> lead pipes for water are not completely harmless. For RoHS I'd think they wend nuts like they did for "Energy saving non-incandescent bulbs", where the CCFL with all the mercury and electronics is way worse than an incandescent lamp plus all the possible pollution by power plants for producing the electricity that they waste
<DocScrutinizer05> probably the crap you need to use to avoid lead in solder is more nasty than the lead
<DocScrutinizer05> particularly when you count in flux and whatnot, and the production process for the alternative metals in lead-free solder
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<paul_boddie> DocScrutinizer05: Are you the prime motivator for this Neo900 thing?
<DocScrutinizer05> you might put it like that, yeah
<DocScrutinizer05> why?
<paul_boddie> Seems like a reasonable idea. I guess GTA04 is a safe bet for stuff like production.
<paul_boddie> Was just interested, really. I don't have an N900 or a Neo.
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe you want to h´get a Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05> ooops, earthquake ;-D
<paul_boddie> So rare to see such coordination between communities. :-)
<DocScrutinizer05> andway thanks for the support
<DocScrutinizer05> dang
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway*
<paul_boddie> I had thought about getting an open smartphone, but the thing that has always been a concern is the state of the software.
<paul_boddie> I lurk on the GTA04 list, so I sort of follow this kind of thing.
<paul_boddie> wpwrak: There was the theory that lead poisoning pretty much did it for the Roman Empire, but they were a bit more careless than us.
<wpwrak> (gta03) maybe ... would have to check the contracts. but then ... who cares nowadays about that anyway ? :)
<wpwrak> in fact, i think showing the pretty curves could just draw interest in the wrong direction
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<wpwrak> well, unless you want to frame it as "you were promised ... <this>. the untrustworthy chinese of course broke their promise. now, many years later, the steadfast germans can deliver <this>"
<wpwrak> not sure this would be a smart marketing campaign, though :)
<paul_boddie> Where do the mischievous Finns come into the story? ;-)
<wpwrak> paul_boddie: the lead poisoning theory is very pretty. but does it make sense ? it would affect the big cities. people on the countryside would still get regular clean water. you didn't have to live in rome in order to have power. in fact, much better to be on the move, destroying enemy armies. or quietly live on the countryside, to be called to the capital in times of dire need, like cincinnatus.
<paul_boddie> wpwrak: I think it had something to do with the way they cooked in lead pans.
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: i think RoHS may have some long-term benefits: get companies to seek alternatives to lead instead of taking it for granted. CCFL, on the other hand, reeks of idiocy or a very poor bribery-related-self-image
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: I'm just on my usual crusade for full disclosure
<paul_boddie> If anything, I think it's just another contributing factor to the poor judgement of various members of the Roman elite.
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: not idiocy, extremely smart business
<DocScrutinizer05> though rogue
<wpwrak> paul_boddie: if you think the romans were decadent, what would you say about a society that has NSA/GHCQ, patent lawyers, and iTablets ? ;-)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: which brings us to bribery ...
<DocScrutinizer05> yup
<DocScrutinizer05> OSRAM
<wpwrak> which, of course, is cleverly concealed, for all we know that bribery is bad. but who could begrudge us of, say, some well-placed incentives ?
<DocScrutinizer05> and, as usual, the true lifespan limited to <<1000h
<wpwrak> i found a solution for the lifespan: argentina was eager to follow the EU nonsense. so the light in my corridor stays on from dusk to dawn. works great, still using the very first lamp.
<wpwrak> that lamp must have more than about 10 khours by now
<DocScrutinizer05> twin of that bulb in the firehouse somewhere in NY(?), eh?
<unclouded> the 1000h could also be noisy power. our CFLs in the city blow more often than they should. the tube is fine and the ballast is cheap. friends who live off-grid with the same bulbs have never blown a bulb
<unclouded> still, hopefully LEDs will replace CFLs before too long
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm already on LED for two
<DocScrutinizer05> nice stuff so far
<unclouded> is it still a 240/110V socket?
<DocScrutinizer05> just costs more than gold
<DocScrutinizer05> sure
<unclouded> that's the only way it will be popular because of existing sockets. we're running 12V LED strips so only have a single 12V supply but it's not for everyone
<unclouded> $3/m from DX FTW
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<unclouded> that looks like a nicely-made part
<wpwrak> i'm all for led, too, of course. whatever form or voltage, it cannot possibly be worse than its predecessors :)
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<unclouded> seems I lied about the cost. the one that produces the best light is $9/m
<unclouded> I guess that's more expensive than a CFL
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