DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: sent User-Agent to "dsv/1.0" (instead of Wget/...) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/3256b03
<wpwrak> grmbl. s/sent/set/
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<larsc> have you found some website that blocks wget?
<wpwrak> yes. digi-key, of all places
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<cde> facT: evil scientists use wget
<cde> so digi-key is making humanity safer
<larsc> your mom uses wget!
<whitequark> that was unexpected
<whitequark> larsc: by the way, did you like SML?
<whitequark> I'm now using lots of OCaml and it's great; SML strikes me as way too oversimplified and academic
<larsc> yea, SML is a language made for teaching
<whitequark> and for writing compilers
<larsc> but to be honest I didn't follow the course through completely
<whitequark> I think I abandoned it after a week.
<whitequark> coincidentally, it took about a week to learn 90% of commonly used OCaml, so it was probably a good idea to not waste time.
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<wpwrak> hmm .. where to host the pwsafe project ? qihw (in DE) or github in (the US), this is the question ...
<whitequark> there's also gitorious in norway
<whitequark> but I'd say github.
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<whitequark> they don't lock you in, so even if they do something nasty, it doesn't matter very much...
<larsc> if you want to go the free software way gitorious
* whitequark coughs
<larsc> why?
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<whitequark> well, you were implying that github is "not FOSS way", and I understand your reasons
<larsc> well gitourious is AGPL
<larsc> github closed source
<wpwrak> yeah, gitorious would be the 3rd choice. haven't used them yet. let's see what they have ...
<larsc> so if you want to make a point about free software use gitorious
<larsc> if you just want a place to host your stuff use github
<whitequark> gitorious is ok, but they didn't put a lot of work into UI.
<whitequark> depends on whether you actually want to use their website/issue tracker/etc or just leave files lying in git.
<larsc> it's opensource fit it ;)
<larsc> fix
<wpwrak> i'm also thinking of things like commit notifications in IRC. qihw has them. github as well, though some say they're not so nice. (they may mean the join/leave noise)
<whitequark> wpwrak: you can disable the noise
<larsc> I think you can even setup custom scripts
<larsc> for commit hooks
<whitequark> there's some combination of flags on freenode which solves that
<larsc> so you could send the update to qi-bot
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<wpwrak> whitequark: yes, but then you need to set up the channel to allow messages from the outside
<whitequark> I think you can permit that only for GH?
<whitequark> not sure though
<wpwrak> larsc: i'd love to just pick something that works :)
<whitequark> larsc: there's also http://gitlab.org/
<whitequark> which would be my choice :)
<larsc> wpwrak: ah come on, where is your spirit?
<wpwrak> summer is coming. today it's 35 C. the air is full of pollen, because natures feels the spring. technically, it's of course still winter. so yeah, there's the spirit, a mix of hay fever, hibernation, and lazy siestas
* whitequark . o O ( winter is coming )
<whitequark> wpwrak: you lucky southern hemisphere bastard!
<whitequark> wait. I just realized that if I fly to the opposite hemisphere each 6 months, I can have an eternal summer
<larsc> today was the first day I wished I had packed a headband for my way home from work
<larsc> whitequark: or eternal winter ;)
* whitequark shudders
<larsc> I want to have eternal early summer
<larsc> 24 degree C and I'm happy
<larsc> but it is cooling down fast, it still was over 30 degree on saturday and about 15 today
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<wpwrak> yeah, the time right after the pollen would be good. or maybe a warm winter day, not more than 25 C, no pollen, no gnats, ...
<larsc> so yea winter is comming (funny how everybody now knows that phrase)
<larsc> warm winter day is -10 ;)
<wpwrak> hmm, a really cold day in buenos aires is slightly below 0 C at dawn
<larsc> ok, where do I have to sign up?
<wpwrak> but we also have winter days that are above 20 C during the day and in the mid-10 at night. that's not so bad. you still need a jacket if you go out in the evening, but it's quite tolerable
<wpwrak> tell your boss you want to telework more :)
<larsc> he probably won't like that
<whitequark> no one would probably mind if I relocate to BA, but I'm somewhat hesitant
<larsc> sometimes I wish I was a webdeveloper or something, only thing you need is your laptop and your head
<whitequark> larsc: if you're a web developer, you don't need your brain anymore.
<whitequark> that's for certain.
<larsc> I used to be a web developer
<larsc> (when I was 14)
<whitequark> same here
<wpwrak> as web developer, you'll need your laptop, your head, and a real job :)
<whitequark> (but I was there longer, I think)
<whitequark> :D
<larsc> wpwrak: it's funny but some of these jobs actually pay really well
<wpwrak> well, there are actually such jobs here. they recruit people who just left university, preferably within getting a diploma, pay them shit, then sell their services to clients abroad. that works pretty well
<wpwrak> and those that pay well ... of course every lottery has some winning ticket ... ;)
<whitequark> university?
<whitequark> are we talking about web development?
<wpwrak> think of it as a filter. "made it through more than one semester -> can probably read and, with the help of a team mate, write"
<wpwrak> well, i'm exaggerating a little. the eduction isn't so bad yet, but keeps getting worse
<whitequark> actually we have a sad joke here
<whitequark> "made it through university -> can do useless stuff for higher-ups and not whine too much for five years straight"
<whitequark> (which is sad because it isn't much of a joke)
<wpwrak> gitorious: "wpwrak is watching" i already feel like someone's observing me :)
<whitequark> most of classes, especially in less-known places, are like that... checking whether you can memorize half a hundred of pages before exam, reproduce them, and forget immediately afterwards.
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<kristianpaul> <AD> i can secure your web pages ;-) </AD>
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: not pay shit i meant not of all then, but here are people always want to ask less money so become hard ask for more in that conditions
<wpwrak> next, a license ... i really want to use libopencm3. alas, it's (still) under LGPL3 ...
<wpwrak> they're thinking of changing that to LGPL-link-with-anything (kinda LGPL as it was traditionally understood), but that hasn't happened yet and i'm not sure it ever will
<wpwrak> hmm .. if I pick GPLv2+, that would meet the LGPLv3 compatibility (i.e., the GPLv2+ is used as meaning GPLv3+) and i think someone could still legally rewrite this to a different low-level library (replacing libopencm3), which would then allow use under GPLv2(+) conditions
<wpwrak> does that sound correct ?
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<larsc> well you can always dual license
<larsc> only the resulting binary has the restrictions
<wpwrak> that's what it basically would be: licensed under GPLv2+ but that's de facto elevated to GPLv3 by libopencm3
<cde> licenses. can't live with them, can't live without them
<wpwrak> indeed, indeed ...
<cde> btw what's the problem with LGPLv3?
<cde> it protects your freedom
<larsc> 'freedom' ;)
<whitequark> freedom of your users, sure
<whitequark> but certainly not yours
* whitequark shrugs
<cde> but you yourself are a user whitequark. so you benefit as well
<whitequark> only if I'm not a developer
<cde> I don't see a huge divide between users and developers. it's more of a continuum
<whitequark> that's the thing with GPL: for owner, no strings are attached, because they're the owner. for users, no strings are attached, because freedom 0. developers are at the huge disadvantage.
<cde> on the contrary. developers gain honour and respect
<whitequark> if they agree with the restrictions
<cde> correct
<whitequark> GPL is an offensive license. that's not inherently bad, but all the talk about how GPL is the only true free license gets tiring
<cde> in general it's not entirely free until you assign copyright to the FSF. then it becomes truely free because the FSF will not relicense under a less free license
<whitequark> just as with proprietary ones, it's not about sharing, it's all about forcing your own view of world upon someone else
<whitequark> for your (not necessarily monetary, of course) advantage
<cde> in my experience, companies will reuse whatever source code they can find without contributing back
<cde> consider Apple with iOS, for instance. BSD based, and how did it benefit the BSD community?
<whitequark> LLVM?
<cde> hmm yes you have a point
<cde> Apple also contributed webkit so they aren't fully evil
* whitequark sighs
<whitequark> see, what I'm talking about is not whether offensive license are "good" or "evil" or whatever. mainly just about calling things their true names.
<mth> afaik Apple kept pretty much all the code they used that is BSD licensed open; it's the frameworks that were never under BSD license that they keep secret
<whitequark> case in point: I've considered licensing my compiler (for embedded devices) and its stdlib under GPLv3
<whitequark> *without* linking exception.
<whitequark> (or code generation one)
<mth> can you claim authorship of generated code?
<whitequark> mth: the idea was to say "here's the user code, and here's compiler-inserted code; they're useless without each other and certainly linked together".
<mth> if compiler-inserted code is in chunks of nontrivial size, like the stdlib, that's certainly valid
<whitequark> crudely: the body of function is user's, the prologue and epilogue are mine.
<mth> for code generation, I'm not so sure
<whitequark> would you *want* to check this in court?
<mth> no, but I wouldn't bet on which side would win if it did end up in court either
<whitequark> "no". yeah, exactly what I was aiming for, see.
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