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* whitequark
sighs
* whitequark
's ISP failed again
<whitequark>
so I set up multiwan between my landline and an LTE dongle, which, by the way, works really well if I put it into a plastic packet and just hang out of the window
<whitequark>
or rather, I wish I could set up multiwan. where I have LTE coverage, I don't have enough length of Cat5, and vice versa
<whitequark>
\o/ with the hang-out-the-window method, I'm getting 3/2 mbit/s
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm gong to find a nice place to shoot myself in the forehead!
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<whitequark>
:(
<DocScrutinizer05>
GDC informed me that all activity about founding UG was absolutely unnecessary since they don't find a way to handle their stuff, no matter if with or without tax number \o/
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<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly, me moving to USA and then starting the fundraiser on one of those crowdfunding sites would have been 5% of the trouble
<whitequark>
I think there are crowdfunding sites working in EU too?
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly, how can you book donations as down payments?
* DocScrutinizer05
can't stop headdesking
<whitequark>
can't GDC just hire you?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure they could - theoretically. But Nik clearly said he thinks it's best when I lead the project
<DocScrutinizer05>
then OTOH I'd bite out a minimum of 2000EUR per month from the donations, for not really a fulltime job (as seen by GDC)
<whitequark>
well... lead financially != lead technologically, isn't it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
project lead is all, financially as well as technically
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<whitequark>
so... basically GDC put you into a position where you simultaneously must lead the project, and are financially unable to do that
<whitequark>
that's not very nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no matter what, I founded that fucking UG which now breaks my neck, especially when it's not needed at all and thus I can't invoice the founding expense to anything or anyone
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<DocScrutinizer05>
Nik tells me "there's no such thing like donations to commercial comapnies" and then he handles all the donations like down payments to *GDC*. Of course this creates a MESS
<wpwrak>
and yes, technical lead would sound like a sensible role. he may still have to sign your purchase orders and such, but that's all. if he doens't want to hire you, he could also contract you for that role. whatever works best.
<wpwrak>
ah, that was a stupid idea. i didn't like the "this counts towards the final price" concept from the start, though i wouldn't have expected it to be that order of a mess
<wpwrak>
what prevents him from repurposing the money ? would it be trouble with the authorities or the risk that some of the donors may pull out ?
<wpwrak>
err, let me rephrase this
<wpwrak>
... the risk that some of the donors may not agree and could sue him.
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<wpwrak>
i.e., if he could 1) get permission from people to repurpose the money and the 2) re-declare the purpose toward the tax authority (if necessary), that should solve your problem
<wpwrak>
of course, the permission would have to be at an individual level. but then, in the days of e-mail, that's not a hardship :)
<wpwrak>
some may say "no". in which case he could probably simply reimburse them. some may not reply. these are probably the most difficult ones. but hopefully enough would agree and then you could move on, while handling the rest.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: that been what we planned until 4h ago
<wpwrak>
with "company can't receive donations" as the killer ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
now he found out that his tax advisers think that causes trouble with tax office regarding VAT, and he also is afraid of the 400 booking incidents he needs to handle then
<wpwrak>
ah
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<DocScrutinizer05>
while last week they said it should be feasible and all they need is my tax number
<wpwrak>
maybe find more competent tax advisors ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the real problem is: he insists in the donations being down payments
<wpwrak>
he should leave that decision to the people who made the donations
<wpwrak>
from the very structure of the project it shuold have been obvious that one can't assume he can guarantee them the be true down payments
<DocScrutinizer05>
from "Donations of 100 EUR or more entitle to a rebate for a single series production device" and "If the project can't continue for whatever reasons, remaining funds are paid back fairly and equally." he constructs a liability of GDC to pay back to the donors
<wpwrak>
at least that's how i understood it
<DocScrutinizer05>
which in turn makes the whole thing a contract with a down payment
<wpwrak>
yes, that was stupid
<wpwrak>
but contracts can be renegotiated
<wpwrak>
as long as both sides agree, you can negotiate almost whatever you want
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, and that one was clearly tailored to not create any liability of whoever received the donations
<wpwrak>
up to "donations", it had no liability :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in sentence #2 we have the definition authority of "remaining funds", "fairly" and "equally"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"entitle to a rebate" is exactly that
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's NOT a down payment, it just "buys" you an entitlement for something (that may never happen)
<wpwrak>
yeah, use remaining funds for rebates. why not. that sounds good.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wut?
<wpwrak>
just agreeing :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, you agree on some misconception
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I'm way ahead of you when I simply cancel the whole fucking project
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<wpwrak>
the screw-up seems to be in the 3rd bullet. the 1st one is still okay, since it doens't say how much
<wpwrak>
well, you can of course just calculate the final price as a function of the rebate
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's exactly what I planned to do
<wpwrak>
after all, you've not promised a final price
<wpwrak>
and, where was the snag ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
eh?
<Web-aptosid876_>
remind me which project is this?
<wpwrak>
"what i planned" sounds as if this didn't work. why ?
<wpwrak>
Web-aptosid876_: neo900
<Web-aptosid876_>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, whatever it sounds to you, I didn't say that
<Web-aptosid876_>
ok
<wpwrak>
oh, so you have a plan. excellent :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
strange how this humor makes me angry
<Web-aptosid876_>
:)
<DocScrutinizer05>
best chance for you to push a bit to kill the whole idiotic project
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<Web-aptosid876_>
poor poor you. I'll be thinking of your pains
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: sometimes, a smile is just to express happiness, not irony
<wpwrak>
i'm happy because you seem to have what looks like a viable solution, while before it seemed you were stuck
<Web-aptosid876_>
err yes that wasn't meant to add to your pain. I wasn't trying to mock you. i was affaid my :) might not go down well. sorry
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<DocScrutinizer05>
btw a rebate remains a rebate, no matter how much it is and when or how precisely you specify that
<wpwrak>
and it's not a stupid project. at least ~350 (?) people don't think it is, and were even willing to bet money on it
<DocScrutinizer05>
an entitlement for a rebate is NO down payment
<wpwrak>
yup. that helps. and you have the clause that it may never happen, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
I suggested "payment subject: management of Neo900 project by UG. Amount: as donated by community, minus handling" - answer: "can you prove you did this?" OH WELL
<DocScrutinizer05>
(for transfer payment from GDC to UG)
<wpwrak>
the conditions on the order page look quite alright. maybe nik screwed up in his tax declaration, i don't know. then we would have to talk to the tax authorities about that. i mean, he can show them the contract terms and all that. it's probably better to talk to them if the operation will look "odd" instead of trying to make it look as unsuspicious as possible and hope they won't complain.
<DocScrutinizer05>
could you PLEASE tell that to Nikolaus?
<wpwrak>
what i don't understand is who he is worried about. is it the tax authority or the donors ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
authority
<DocScrutinizer05>
or actually I don't get it
<wpwrak>
heh ;-) he does seem confused
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
pretty much
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I can feel with him, I felt same when I left first tax adviser's meeting which took 2h
<DocScrutinizer05>
and his tax advisers seem even more confused
<wpwrak>
(can you prove you did this?) the past tense seems odd
<wpwrak>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry
<wpwrak>
maybe see if you can meet people from the tax office. tell them what you plan to do and ask them if they'd be cool with it. informally, of course
<Web-aptosid876_>
It's a eye opener that these preoders don't mean that you have funding. I thought you could some how used the money for your costs and so could give these people a reduced end price because they already paid part of the cost. so preoders look more like a guaranty for they that you have a buyer. sorry to be a irritating clueless idiot. I'd say explaining the situation to your preorders would help anyone like me to unde
<Web-aptosid876_>
rstand and want my money to be used as needed.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: what makes you believe I could do that when HE couldn't?
<Web-aptosid876_>
for you that you have a buyer.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: ah, "you" = you and nik. maybe bring a tax "advisor" along if that makes him feel safer. and did he actually try ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: propose it ? and perhaps ask him what he means with that proof. i.e., to whom ? does nik doubt you ? does he think some tax inspector will doubt you ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<wpwrak>
does nik have a criminal record for money laundering or such, that he'd have reason to be overly cautious ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc
<DocScrutinizer05>
he seems to have a monster nightmare of a accounting program
<wpwrak>
Web-aptosid876_: i don't think you can easily extrapolate the situation of neo900 to other crowdfunded projects
<wpwrak>
SAP ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and some pretty rigid assumptions about what is what in tax
<wpwrak>
oh yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
he insists that the text on the GDC site creates a contract between donor and GDC which includes a down payment
<DocScrutinizer05>
when this was true, then it's his fault, since it never been meant to be that way
<wpwrak>
well, it would be a very special kind of down payment, given "If the project can't continue for whatever reasons, remaining funds are paid back fairly and equally."
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually when this was a down payment, then WHY THE FUCK he paid VAT to tax authority for the "orders" from non-EU?
<wpwrak>
maybe there's vat on down payments ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the fact that he did proves it's NOT a down payment
<wpwrak>
dunno, i'm not a tax advisor :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, there is no VAT on down payments for material goods sent to non-EU destinations
<DocScrutinizer05>
the general VAT he paid is just because GDC isn't selling any physical goods
<DocScrutinizer05>
for non-physical good like promises or software you can't prove the destination, so VAT applies
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless you ship the software on a CD
<DocScrutinizer05>
what he "sells" is a promise of a rebate, not a Neo900
<larsc>
basically a voucher
<wpwrak>
i'd recommend you try to find a way to talk to the tax authority. be it with nik or alone. be friendly with them and tell them that you've been given the runaround from those tax advisors and that yuo'd like to know their opinion. maybe ask them if they can recommend an advisor who can actually help solving the problem instead of making it worse :)
<wpwrak>
larsc: a virtual voucher :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know, there are those magazines with lots of rebate vouchers in them, cost some 10$ or sth. You can't reclaim your 10$
<DocScrutinizer05>
authorities MUST NOT recommend anybody
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the rest: yes, I prolly should do exactly this now, help him out by talking to my tax adviser and my tax authority
<wpwrak>
you may also have to prepare for the possiblity that fixing any incorrect declarations will have a cost. possibly some fees, administrative fines, maybe you'd be entitled to a tax refund but they'll block it for some time, maybe they'll want more, maybe you'll simply lose tax you paid without really having to.
<wpwrak>
(must not recommend) well, if you ask nicely, off the record, they may give you some hints :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I already suggested Nk to go this way, when he doesn't see a way to solve stuff right now
<wpwrak>
it seems that you're at an impasse. at the same time, you're not doing anything illegal or dishonest. so i think exploring new avenues is the way to go, i.e., talking to the tax authority. let them at least tell you how they see the big picture
<wpwrak>
you may have to be prepared to visit them more than once. e.g., if it's really complicated, they may want a specific person that may not be available on your first visit
<wpwrak>
of course, they higher in the hierarchy you get, the better. because in the end you'll probably have spoken to someone who'd have to sign off whatever you do in the end. if they remember you, they'll be less likely to suspect foul play.
<wpwrak>
now there's some good news: ubuntu are burying ubuntu one. one piece of junk less to deinstall after a default installation ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever ubuntu one may be
<DocScrutinizer05>
which default installation would have any relation to ubuntu at large? ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
*sigh* Nik suggests to cancel the project
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course not without blaming me for that
<wpwrak>
that's of course an alternative. you may want to ask him if he'll be able to "shortcut" refunds. e.g., if you restart it on your side, whether he could transfer refunds directly to you (if the donor agrees)
<wpwrak>
but i'd still try to get him to come along to visit the tax authority. see what they have to say. i mean, he's got nothing to lose there.