hsbt_away changed the topic of #ruby-core to: check the latest release candidate for 1.9.1 release ftp.ruby-lang.org:/home/yugui/ruby-1.9.1-r26021+1.tar.bz2
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<hsbt> zzak: hi
<hsbt> I started to prepare git-svn repository on my mac. I'll provide this repository via s3 to hone.
<hsbt> I discussion this issue with shyouhei. Most fast solution is packaging to git-svn repository.
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32051] nobu:r44130 (trunk): envutil.rb: backtrace may not be present - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32051
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32052] hsbt:r44131 (trunk): * ext/racc/cparse/README: [DOC] Use upstream and github link instead of RAA. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32052
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32053] hsbt:r44132 (trunk): * ext/tk/lib/tkextlib/SUPPORT_STATUS: [DOC] remove link of RAA. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32053
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32054] ko1:r44133 (trunk): * eval.c (rb_raise_jump): pop frame after setup exception. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32054
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32055] a_matsuda:r44134 (trunk): * ext/win32ole/sample/olegen.rb: Fix typo - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32055
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32056] nobu:r44135 (trunk): * remove trailing spaces. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32056
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<zzak> hsbt: おはよう！
<zzak> i forget what time it is
<zzak> hsbt: that sounds great, i was just reading shyohei's translation of: https://gist.github.com/shyouhei/7905704
<zzak> i wish to make git-svn package easy to use for new contributors
<hsbt> good morning!
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<zzak> hsbt: i think hone already has a working git-svn, we need this for bootstrap guide
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32057] tmm1:r44136 (trunk): compile.c: add opt_aset instruction for faster Hash#[]= and Array#[]= - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32057
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32058] nobu:r44137 (trunk): hash.c: reject should return a plain hash - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32058
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<hsbt> zzak: Did you feel to ready to merge this? https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/pull/427
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<zzak> hsbt: i think so!
<hsbt> Thanks!
<hsbt> after merged, I added attendee list
<zzak> hsbt: thank you!
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32059] ko1:r44138 (trunk): revert r44133. See https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/8886 details - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32059
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32060] ko1:r44139 (trunk): * eval.c (rb_raise_jump): call c_return hook immediately after - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32060
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<_ko10> zzak: hi
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<_ko10> do you plan to announce all meeting logs on ruby-lang.org?
<_ko10> i don't against to announce important decision
<_ko10> however, bug fixes or spec discussions are on ticket.
<_ko10> i think it does not need to announce all of discussion
<_ko10> such as > GC Merits and Documentation
<_ko10> only wiki is enough.
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<zzak> _ko10: hi
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<zzak> _ko10: did you see the pull request?
<zzak> i think its important to display transparency with our users about the discussions we have internally
<zzak> so they can prepare before we write official announcements
<zzak> i dont like using the wiki for such things
<zzak> i want to move most documentation off the wiki
<nurse> such internal documents are not for normal ruby users; it is not news
<zzak> i disagree
<zzak> users want to know when 1.9.3 is EOL, this gives them notice and shares our inside discussion
<zzak> theres no difference between having it on ruby-lang.org or on some wiki page, both are open to anyone
<nurse> EOL announcement must as the news; not a part of log
<zzak> in the document, i mentioned that this what we discussed during the meeting, and link to tickets for further discussion and conclusion
<zzak> "Below I have summarized the meetings for each day and organized them into agenda items. Each agenda item should have an associated ticket on our bug tracker that you can follow for more information. I will be updating these tickets with our conclusion shortly!"
<nurse> if there's no difference, it is no need to move
<zzak> please also see discussion on tickets, i plan to write official documentation on our decisions
<zzak> the difference is clarity
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<zzak> if we publish a summary to ruby-lang it can be easily maintained and translated via the www.ruby-lang.org translation teams
<nurse> the point is why it is published as news
<nurse> it is not a news for normal ruby users
<zzak> because it was an important meeting to discuss the future of ruby? our users care about the future of their applications?
<nurse> meeting is not important
<nurse> If the conclusion is important, the conclusion should be published as the standalone article.
<nurse> The title is not "meeting log", but for example "EOL plan of 1.9.3"
<zzak> the conclusion will be published in official documentation
<nurse> the anounce is not the summary of meeting, standalone announce document
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<nurse> In other words, news is news release, it is not a log.
<nurse> News release has a single topic.
<nurse> We concluded some topics in last meeting, we should write some news articles; not single meeting log
<nurse> (for normal ruby users)
<nurse> of course meeting log is good for ruby-itself-developers
<zzak> so you think this type of news is not useful? https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/news/2006/06/20/the-future-of-ruby/
<nurse> yeah, "type" is.
<zzak> i can make the meeting log available on wiki or third-party service (like my own blog)
<nurse> though the article is not so good
<nurse> it should be on wiki
<zzak> i just dont see the difference, it should be visible to our users
<nurse> (though I made some logs on google docs to ease the shared work of making logs)
<nurse> Publisher must do filtering
<nurse> meeting logs is not needed by normal ruby users
<zzak> i just want there to be transparency for our users
<zzak> noone uses redmine
<nurse> transparency is not the term to publish everything
<nurse> Everyone can read content on redmine even if write is maybe restricted.
<zzak> transparency means to make visible, visibility requires publishing
<zzak> and ubiquity requires translations, which we have on ruby-lang.org
<nurse> translate meeting log is waste of resource.
<nurse> People who want to read log should be read it in English.
<nurse> Announce should be translated.
<zzak> im sorry you feel that way, giving our users advanced notice before we can decide and write official documentation is valuable in my opinion
<zzak> the discussion that took place and why we made such decisions is just as important as the conclusion
<nurse> If you think so, the process is written in the annoucement.
<nurse> As far as I understand in last meeting, writing annoucement about EOL of 1.9.3 is your task.
<zzak> ofcourse
<nurse> You should write the annoucement which include why we decide such conclusion.
<nurse> It should be not a part of meeting log. it should be in the anouncement
<nurse> (though meeting log on the wiki also have related logs)
<zzak> i think we need both
<zzak> we only disagree on location of log
<zzak> (i hope)
<nurse> agree
<nurse> * politically log is not published one
<nurse> * technically log must be editable by ruby-core developers who doesn't have/want to have w.r-l.o repo access
<zzak> but the wiki is so bad
<zzak> its full of spam, and its impossible to track changes
<nurse> it sounds you aren't familiar with wiki
<zzak> i know there are revisions, but they are not as useful as a diff
<nurse> why you want to see log?
<nurse> log -> diff
<zzak> i dont think we should change the log, i think that disguises discussion
<nurse> you should describe requirements for ideal log management system.
<zzak> git
<nurse> As far as I know, log needs (semi) realtime collabolation.
<zzak> the only persons collaborating on this log were myself and other various users on github
<nurse> it mans if you don't attend a meeting, the log won't be provided?
<nurse> it means if you don't attend a meeting, the log won't be provided?
<zzak> thats what i want to avoid
<nurse> By my experience, even if I attend the meeting, I can't write log if I discuss the topic.
<zzak> i can move the log to redmine, and we (ruby-core) can continue to use redmine for our internal discussion
<nurse> For such case, the ideal log should have realtime collabolation like google docs.
<zzak> right, anyone with a redmine account can change the log
<zzak> only committers to w.r-l.o can change the log, or via pull request which requires review
<nurse> Anyway normal developer meeting's log is like https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qRJ0I5Iq06x7SRovzZ1_GSxLe9Raw1d4hBYDX7gBTHg/edit#heading=h.onsui7iksm9c
<zzak> i didnt know this existed
<nurse> yes
<zzak> but none of that is in english
<zzak> i need to learn japanese faster :(
<zzak> my point is, in this case, we're relying on non-japanese speaking committers and invested users to rely on google translate to decide the fate of ruby
<nurse> as far as it should be translated to English but what we did is save it is Japanese
<nurse> (people can translate if someone has resource
<nurse> oops, meeting in business
<zzak> well if we write the log in english the first time, we have a team of translators on ruby-lang.org
<zzak> we dont have a google docs team or redmine wiki team available to do that
<zzak> i dont want to force you to use english for these logs, but if they are published on ruby-lang.org there are translators available there
<zzak> if i could be at every meeting and lead the discussion in english with japanese translation support i would
<zzak> i want us to be more open about when and why we make these decisions
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<hsbt> zzak: Could you separate "1.9.3 EOL announce" from your pull request?
<zzak> hsbt: any reason?
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<zzak> i think we are discussing removing the log from ruby-lang.org
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<zzak> what is the purpose of having a log that doesn't include valuable detail? i dont think it should be editted unless we have a good reason
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<hsbt> I can't merge your pull request. you need to applied ko1 and nurse's comments.
<hsbt> I think better published only important things.
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<zzak> hsbt: agree! i'm actually going to publish a new document soon for MeetingGuidelines, similar to what we have for irc
<zzak> this was my first developer meeting (not counting implementer meetings), so i'm still learning ;)
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32062] svn:r44141 (trunk): * 2013-12-12 - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32062
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:32061] marcandRe: r44140 (trunk): * array.c: More doc examples for Array#{map|collect}{!} using both forms - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=32061
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